[Beta] Havoc Discussion

[Unkhrahuun the Atoned]

insofar as VR is concerned, the ability to animation break is gone, save one where it's a problem with the no GCD and conflicting orders more than a cancel.

they haven't been battling with FR at all.

Hopefully it's a "one thing at a time" approach. Either that or they don't expect the general population to really bother with it.

It looks tedious and not worth the effort IMO. And by General population, I'm talking about mouth breathers like myself mostly.

Question: is the major gripe with the fact it can be cancelled or is it the damage shooting out still? I'm gonna assume more the latter than the former, but a combination of both since doing it either way makes you a stinky weasel.

[Vanyali]

Hopefully it's a "one thing at a time" approach. Either that our they don't expect the general population to really bother with it.

It looks tedious and not worth the effort IMO. And by General population, I'm talking about mouth breathers like myself mostly.

Question: is the major gripe with the fact it can be cancelled or is it the damage shooting out still? I'm gonna assume more the latter than the former.

The damage shooting out.

Which isn't exclusive to the cancel; you can sit behind a wall and do the exact same thing.

[Unkhrahuun the Atoned]

The damage shooting out.

Which isn't exclusive to the cancel; you can sit behind a wall and do the exact same thing.

Like, stand facing a wall, /cast Fel Rush , run into the wall, damage still goes through?

[Vanyali]

Like, stand facing a wall, /cast Fel Rush , run into the wall, damage still goes through?

depending on the wall, but as long as it's something you *could* get over (ie, not a dungeon wall or something), generally it'll go through.

[Deleted]

Are anyone elses shattered souls not appearing I see the line flying off the mob when it dies but then it just disappears when it hits the ground and I dont get healed, idk if my glyph turning them green is the problem or not.


Edit: So taking off the glyph did fix my problem

I actually had the same problem, same fix. Any of the glyphs that change the colour of souls cause them to phase out and you can't pick them up.
Reported it in game already, if others could do the same that'd be dandy.

Also fel rush animation cancelling on low latency can eat my ass. Can't wait for it to get fixed.

[chooi]

It looks tedious and not worth the effort IMO. And by General population, I'm talking about mouth breathers like myself mostly.

If you used the 'easy' versions of animation cancelling it wasn't even that hard and didn't require macros at all, only a bit of practice and timing. It was really fun once you had worked it because it gave you control and that rewarding feel when you executed it well.

Easy VR cancelling was: start running forward - press VR - Glide mid-air. It took me only a short time of practice to do it reliably. No macros required.

Cancelling FR still is super easy: press FR immediately followed by Space (Jump). That's it. Nothing fancy.

It was also a lot of fun watching your DH quickly moving in and out, constantly attempting to surprise the enemy and seek for openings. It actually fit the 'class fantasy' really well.

Though, we wouldn't have to do all this if they got their shit together and just designed the talents and abilities properly to not encourage such kind of gameplay.

- - - Updated - - -

I actually had the same problem, same fix. Any of the glyphs that change the colour of souls cause them to phase out and you can't pick them up.
Reported it in game already, if others could do the same that'd be dandy.

Also fel rush animation cancelling on low latency can eat my ass. Can't wait for it to get fixed.

The fix for soul fragments is removing any glyph for it? Really?


About FR cancelling: I hate all of you complainers...don't ruin my fun because you can't press Jump right after FR. Seriously, it's not rocket science and latency won't be an issue on live servers. I can do it on >200ms so I don't understand the damn problem. Y U DO DIS?!

[Vanyali]

About FR cancelling: I hate all of you complainers...don't ruin my fun because you can't press Jump right after FR. Seriously, it's not rocket science and latency won't be an issue on live servers. I can do it on >200ms so I don't understand the damn problem. Y U DO DIS?!

Being able to do it isn't the issue, it's that it shoots the damage ahead of you without moving you.

[Deleted]

Because it's stupid, clunky and awful design. It's also easier on higher latency. Can do it 100% of the time in the world, get into a dungeon and it's ass. And the fact that the damage goes off for the entire range is just retarded.

I don't understand why anyone even likes it. It's not even skill based since it can be entirely setup with synapse macros.

And yes removing the glyph fixes the problem.

[Deleted]

So now people who doesn't want to exploit a broken non-intended mechanic are incompetent and deserve hate? I don't get that stance...

[Shanoa]

Quick question: with the recent changes to the talent system, which would be the best one for leveling? Fel Mastery / Prepared / Felblade / X / Momentum / Chaos Cleave / Demonic?

Also, the FR cancel is done by just pressing FR and jump or should i hold the walk back button while doing it for easy imput? With momentum, we should just use VR and Felblade right after correct? While also using the FR cancel to keep uptime of the buff right?

[The Archmage]

Little question to testers, and i apologize if it's been asked already but it's kinda hard to keep track of it all:

What is the current situation of Felblade in ST situations? Is it the option to go for in terms of optimization?
Is it still optimal to use Blade Dance on ST without first blood?

I am perfectly aware that numbers are not tuned in so it's premature to talk about "optimal", but i think it's still an indicator of how Blizzard intends those abilities and their interactions with various combat situations

[Keltas]

Little question to testers, and i apologize if it's been asked already but it's kinda hard to keep track of it all:

What is the current situation of Felblade in ST situations? Is it the option to go for in terms of optimization?
Is it still optimal to use Blade Dance on ST without first blood?

I am perfectly aware that numbers are not tuned in so it's premature to talk about "optimal", but i think it's still an indicator of how Blizzard intends those abilities and their interactions with various combat situations

Bd is less damage than CS on a single target(before armor, just tooltips), so I'd never use it without first blood.

Felblade is definitely better for leveling right now. You have a lot of crit on your leveling gear (at least I do, I'm at like 35% at 104) plus it charges you to the target and does a good amount of damage, which can be followed with a CS.

[Deleted]

Bd is less damage than CS on a single target(before armor, just tooltips), so I'd never use it without first blood.

Felblade is definitely better for leveling right now. You have a lot of crit on your leveling gear (at least I do, I'm at like 35% at 104) plus it charges you to the target and does a good amount of damage, which can be followed with a CS.

Add to that the fact that it actually feels good to use.

Generally speaking my method for levelling was pull as much as i can, build fury with VR and felblade while picking mobs up, then eye beam/CS targets down and live off the healing, and that felt really good. I'm not sure the same can be pulled off without felblade. I'm not sure there's actually a more efficient way of clearing mobs fast than that, or at least, not one that leaves you more often than not at full hp when you're done.

Felblade is just very nice to use.

- - - Updated - - -

So now people who doesn't want to exploit a broken non-intended mechanic are incompetent and deserve hate? I don't get that stance...

People just like to seem superior in some way. If anything, when/if they fix the animation cancelling, it'll be a higher skillcap ability to use correctly in raids since you'll need to ensure you're minimising target uptime lost with the displacement of the charge.

[chooi]

Because it's stupid, clunky and awful design. [...]

Your opinion. Don't state it as fact.

So now people who doesn't want to exploit a broken non-intended mechanic are incompetent and deserve hate? I don't get that stance...

They only battled VR cancelling (which is understandable but sad because of the useless base design of VR for a melee class).

FR was not mentioned IIRC. Cancelling FR may be 'not intended by design' (because they didn't have it in mind) but as long as they aren't actively working against it or saying 'hey you shouldn't do this because you risk a ban if you do' it's 'intended by practice'.


I mean, keep complaining and possibly let them make it even worse (like the guys who complained for spec costs, good job!). So we won't be able to use FR/Momentum on bosses where we can't move much or can't just rush through the boss at all. Or it completely locks us out of GCD or whatever. I hope everyone of you will be happy then. Always keep the consequences of your actions in mind. You guys might be trading a minor 'nuisance' (that has a lot of positive potential if you allow it) for a big problem that might make some builds completely useless on some fights.

[Qlix]

Always keep the consequences of your actions in mind. You guys might be trading a minor 'nuisance' (that has a lot of positive potential if you allow it) for a big problem that might make some builds completely useless on some fights.

This has kinda been my fear through this whole thing. Is it intended probably not. I just foresee a much more badly broken spec than we already have as a result of trying to fix it.

[Keltas]

FR was not mentioned IIRC. Cancelling FR may be 'not intended by design' (because they didn't have it in mind) but as long as they aren't actively working against it or saying 'hey you shouldn't do this because you risk a ban if you do' it's 'intended by practice'..

Just because it isn't being battled doesn't mean they intend you to run external mouse scripts to play your class.

Like how is that sound logic? They destroyed demos playstyle because "it relied too much on addons". There is a 0% chance they intend you to skillcap by breaking the game. Yes, you can do it without external addons, but look at every single other class in beta right now. Not a single one is complex or requires anything like FR cancelling. It's so obviously not intended. They probably just don't know how to fix it or the fix is complex. They wouldn't put this much effort into stomping out VR cancelling it they wanted FR cancelling to be a thing.

Edit: They never directly said VR cancelling isn't intended, they replied to all animation cancelling being intended or not by saying try next build, implying none of it is intended.


I know exactly what my actions will cause, and I hope they actually do something that isn't just throwing weird fixes at it that aren't working. I still think the talents that affect the two movement abilities should trade the mobility aspect off the ability for the extra damage and resources they provide. It's the simplest and quickest solution.

[chooi]

Just because it isn't being battled doesn't mean they intend you to run external mouse scripts to play your class.

Again, I don't use any 'external mouse scripts' at all. They are simply not needed. You just have to find out the right timing once and maybe practice for like few minutes. You're overcomplicating it when it's really easy in truth.

Also, you don't have to use it if you don't want to. On many bosses or in the world it's not necessary to cancel FR. But it's nice to have on those bosses/situations where you just can't FR the whole distance, so a Momentum build is still viable on this bosses. (Especially with free talent respecs gone!)

I know exactly what my actions will cause, and I hope they actually do something that isn't just throwing weird fixes at it that aren't working. I still think the talents that affect the two movement abilities should trade the mobility aspect off the ability for the extra damage and resources they provide. It's the simplest and quickest solution.

But that's not how Blizzard does things and you know it. If not, then sorry, you're just delusional or terribly naive.

I guarantee you they won't fix the 'root of evil' by overhauling the core mechanics of Vengeful Retreat, Fel Rush and their respective talents (FM, Prep, Momentum) to make animation cancelling completely unnecessary. Of course, that would be the best way. But they will just throw some band-aid fix on animation cancelling and call it a day - like they pretty much always do. 'Deal with it. We don't care how you make our poor design choices playable.' That is exactly what's gonna happen and that's why you should all just shut your mouth and pray that they won't change anything unless you really want to be limited to play only one build. Have fun with that.

[MightyWarrior]

As long as they don't nerf the mobility and mess up the spells due to fixing the animation cancelling then who cares! It is always better to play legit ^_^

[Dimzum]

I found that jump and double jump before VR allows you to glide immediately after. So maybe not such a hit to mobility.

**Edit**

Just played around so more. You can still glide after a VR without jumping before, just not immediately after. I found making a /glide macro and mashing it until wings popped.

Not as simple as before but it works.

[Raiju]

FR was not mentioned IIRC. Cancelling FR may be 'not intended by design' (because they didn't have it in mind) but as long as they aren't actively working against it or saying 'hey you shouldn't do this because you risk a ban if you do' it's 'intended by practice'.

No, not at all, never, anywhere is this a reasonable argument to make. You may like the FR cancel but to even try to pretend its anything more than bug abuse is laughable. Your first step to arguing for it is accepting it for what it actually is - because 'bug abusing' doesn't have to mean it's unacceptable.