[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[Deleted]

I agree with you. The changes are mostly tweaks, the mechanics are the same. But here is the rundown
-Mobility

Would be easy to fix by giving us Divine Steed baseline, and replacing the talent by something that reduces it's cooldown. Seal of Light bringing down to either one HP cost or 3 HP = higher Runspeed instead of longer duration might be helpful, too. Don't understand the longer duration thing anyway.

-Filler

Could help, but isn't that necessary. Consecration baseline might be a possibility for this. It doesn't look good in it's row because Final Verdict is more flexible and Execution Sentence very powerful.

-Defensive

Could be solved by tuning imo. Make Shield of Vengeance stronger - and undispelable for PvP - or reduce it's cooldown. Could get a limitation on damage done, like Touch of Karma has. As I said, Blizzard overvalues our immunities a bit.

-Utility

The easiest fix would be to solve the whole Greater Blessing bullshit, by allowing just ONE of each Greater Blessing, so we automatically could buff Might, Kings and Wisdom. And make them buffable infight again. Especially Wisdom is quite strong at the moment I think.

-Found a middle ground for Equality

Biggest problem with Equality is its dependance on the users HP. I've suggested it multiple times.. the easiest fix would be to use the difference of your enemies HP instead of the user HP. With some kind of "the damage cannot be more than max HP of the Paladin who is using the ability".

[Bolt66]

It's funny, I felt the same way on an Arms Warrior, wait for a little extra rage so I can continue Slam spamming(It's really bad lol).

@Bolt: Well right now Crusader Strike is at 160% weapon damage so what would be a good level of damage to work.

I can't log in right now to check but I think if it was given synergy with another mechanic, 200-250 would be good. That'll probably be higher than most other specs' fillers but considering that we literally have nothing else aside from BoJ, it should be okay.

On Mobility
Am I the only one who dislikes every aspect of Divine Steed? CD, Duration, Visual, everything.
I know making it baseline is needed but I really wish our go to mobility spell was something better. Charge, leap, fel rush, grip, shadowstep, etc. are just so much more fun to use (not to mention actually effective at their job).

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Bolt, I'm with you. I don't care for Divine Steed. I've been adovocating for Pursuit of Justice much more honestly.

[Ulthane]

Would be easy to fix by giving us Divine Steed baseline, and replacing the talent by something that reduces it's cooldown. Seal of Light bringing down to either one HP cost or 3 HP = higher Runspeed instead of longer duration might be helpful, too. Don't understand the longer duration thing anyway.


Could help, but isn't that necessary. Consecration baseline might be a possibility for this. It doesn't look good in it's row because Final Verdict is more flexible and Execution Sentence very powerful.


Could be solved by tuning imo. Make Shield of Vengeance stronger - and undispelable for PvP - or reduce it's cooldown. Could get a limitation on damage done, like Touch of Karma has. As I said, Blizzard overvalues our immunities a bit.


The easiest fix would be to solve the whole Greater Blessing bullshit, by allowing just ONE of each Greater Blessing, so we automatically could buff Might, Kings and Wisdom. And make them buffable infight again. Especially Wisdom is quite strong at the moment I think.


Biggest problem with Equality is its dependance on the users HP. I've suggested it multiple times.. the easiest fix would be to use the difference of your enemies HP instead of the user HP. With some kind of "the damage cannot be more than max HP of the Paladin who is using the ability".

Pretty much VERY close to what I'm going to list. Literally everything being said we are on the same page but I think I can map this out better. On phone atm so it sucks gotta wait til home

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I can't log in right now to check but I think if it was given synergy with another mechanic, 200-250 would be good. That'll probably be higher than most other specs' fillers but considering that we literally have nothing else aside from BoJ, it should be okay.

On Mobility
Am I the only one who dislikes every aspect of Divine Steed? CD, Duration, Visual, everything.
I know making it baseline is needed but I really wish our go to mobility spell was something better. Charge, leap, fel rush, grip, shadowstep, etc. are just so much more fun to use (not to mention actually effective at their job).

That will get mentioned as well. I understand why it's there though and I feel they can give options for this ability: a way to make it select a mount you want to use, adds in paladin mount glow into it.

[Found]

Not sure if this is a good word to use when trying to make a point. It's not more competitive than any of the testers including myself might think. Why? Fires of justice is practically the go to over both talents in this row because of it's damage and it lowers the CD of CS as well as giving us a 25% chance to reduce the next spender by 1 HoPo which is a lot considering we only have 5. Zeal in comparison to this is just weak.

Edit: Literally 5 other people beat me to this answer, my bad for repeating this to you for the 6th time.

I use the word "probably" because that conclusion is based off of simulation, and this early in the beta, with rotations, stat priorities, and talent tuning still not pinned down, and with the higher probability of bugs in the simulation than for live, these results should be taken with a massive grain of salt. While testing the implementation, I saw - under some likely unrealistic assumptions (like full artifact) - Zeal being quite close to TFoJ in most single-target talent combinations.

While, for the reasons stated above and more, these results are super preliminary, not scientific, and should not be taken to mean much of anything, Zeal certainly looks like it could be better than would be implied by:

[...] Zeal? Looooooooooooooooooooooooooooool that was already the most un-competitive talent in that tree. [...]

which is all I was trying to say. We shouldn't judge talents to be completely un-competitive, or completely overpowered, without at least having data or a strong argument to back those statements up. That will just cause us to fail to notice when these talents fall outside of these expectations.

In reality, people are likely going to tend towards TFoJ over Zeal - both because it probably has better synergy better with the set bonus (which, for real? can Blizzard not think of anything more interesting than "oh, hey rets, it's your first tier set for the expac, so yo dawg, I heard you like RNG, so I put RNG in your RNG so you can RNG while you RNG"?) and because the ability to pool an extra holy power with a bit of luck provides some additional flexibility in realistic raid scenarios that aren't very well modeled by patchwerk modeling. But I could see Zeal having use, for example, in heroic dungeons, where you switch between AoEing trash packs and single-targeting bosses quite frequently.

Oh, also, for clarity for everyone before this also pops up in a tooltip - while it doesn't say so in the tooltip, the spell data for Judgment says that while affected by Greater Judgment each chained target should be taking 35% less damage from Judgment than the previous target.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I kinda wish they didn't take away Turalyon's Might away.

[Bolt66]

I kinda wish they didn't take away Turalyon's Might away.

Yeah, I completely agree.
For me if they'd added that to WoD Ret with a touch of unique raid utility thrown in, I would've been sold.

[Alindra]

On Mobility
Am I the only one who dislikes every aspect of Divine Steed? CD, Duration, Visual, everything.
I know making it baseline is needed but I really wish our go to mobility spell was something better. Charge, leap, fel rush, grip, shadowstep, etc. are just so much more fun to use (not to mention actually effective at their job).

Aesthetics: I think they're okay - I just don't like how it looks with a 3s duration. It's just super flashy then ends. If you're riding a steed into battle, you'd think it would last longer.

As for duration / cd / speed%, I'm not in beta - but on Live I typically avoid Speed of Light because the cd feels too long. Steed has the same CD, and covers less distance than Speed of Light.

I kinda wish they didn't take away Turalyon's Might away.

Would you give up ES or FV for it, though? Its not a HP spender (no benefit from Judgment) and using it for dps would deprive you of the mobility (it'd either be on CD or, I think, the charge removed the aoe). It could be placed in a different tier, I suppose. Then there is still the fact it took 3 clicks to activate.

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JV questions:

Question 1: Could/should JV do something special on stun immune mobs? Like always deal double damage (or even just +50%)?
Question 2: Did we ever figure out what its damage was based off? I seem to remember someone saying 800% AP, but I can't recall from where.
Question 3: Actually, I can't remember, did JV benefit from FV? I seem to recall it did at once, then the benefit was removed.
Question 4: This is subjective, but do you think JV feel better or worse if it dealt more dps than TV?

[Ulthane]

So at home and here we go. To begin this is a compile of what ive seen on here, what ive felt when I played it, looking at everyone and what they said and quite honestly so many people were right. Though this is a rough draft for the forums im putting it here for eveyone's in put and feeling before I delve neck deep into the trenches. I want everyone to be heard here. @Bolt66 @ruiizu @Aeluron Lightsong @Storm the Sorrow @Loewenherz
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Basline/Mechanics
-Judgment: We can either do 1 of two things here, they want this mechanic the way it is. It is central to everything we do and mastery but I say we could make it work with a few more restrictions and buff other things in tandem so we could either 1. Keep it as normal or 2. Your next 2 Templar's Verdicts deal X% more damage on this target. Either way would and should not affect Divine Storm or Justicar's Vengeance and ill get into why further down.

-Crusader Strike: This needs to be buffed to 200% - 300% weapon damage.

-Divine Storm: Damage buffed to the same damage Templar's Verdict has, no longer affected by Judgment. Since Judgment would be TV exclusive only then our Divine Storm needs to be buffed greatly.

-Art of War: Either this needs to be a baseline where Crusader Strike has a chance to reset the CD of Blade of Justice OR this needs to be the Virtue's Blade talent in addition this Art of War would make your next Flash of Light instant. This would solve a lot.

-Consecration: Baseline all specs, THIS may or may not be here. Depends on you guys. If this is baseline then the 15 talent for it NEEDS to buff this. If not keep it as a talent and buff the damage.

Utility
-Greater Blessings: Personally, i dont think they are going to budge with overhauling this. BUT maybe there is a way to do this. Restrict 1 of each active but BUFF them tons individually. (no 3x mights, etc etc only 1 of each)
--Might: All attacks deal 30% more damage as holy. Number can be lowered but remove the proc.
--Kings: All damage taken is mitigated by X number.
--Wisdom: Either tick every 1 second or every 3. That is a lot of regen on mana anyways.

-Healing Storm: I think it should also work with Templar's Verdict as well personally. But with DS buffed so much and seeing it would have more frequent use id imagine this would help.

Mobility
-Pursuit of Justice: Increase movement speed to 15%. We need mobility for raid mechanics, we dont need charges, we dont need leaps we just need this and Divine Steed baseline to deal with mechanics properly. So this is from a PvE standpoint.

-Divine Steed: Baseline all specs.
--Animation: I would suggest a mechanic where you select a mount to be your "Divine Steed" this mount could be ANY mount. When you summon it you get the Charger summon animation on the mount when you do the spell and when you do not do the spell, as in when you summon it normally. This chosen steed becomes a Divine mount, it gains the Charger glow in addition to animations it might have. So you could have Divine Steed: Tyreal's Charger, Divine Steed: Invincible, Divine Steed: Charger, Divine Steed: Cindermane Charger etc. The only thing is flying mounts though they would work for this it wont be able to fly when you use Divine Steed. You are grounded. No breaking the game. Just making it better visually and tolerable.

Defensive
-Shield of Vengeance: Cooldown lowered to 30 seconds and maybe increase how much is absorbed. Since we no longer have Divine Protection and Unbreakable Spirit we need an active mitigation tool for mechanics when they hit. This would fit the bill. Deflection should increase the Absorb of this.

-Art of War (cont): If they put in the FoL mechanic in we will be fine.

Talents
15 Row: This row seems stable over all but a few tweaks could be done to match the above.
-Final Verdict: 1 of 2 options; Your Templar's Verdict increases the damage of your next Templar's Verdict by X for Y seconds stacking up to Z times. OR Increases the damage of Tempar's Verdict by 20% and when you use Templar's Verdict you have a chance to make your next Divine Storm free and deal X% more damage.
-Execution Sentence: 1 of 2 Options; If Judgment is based on your next 2 Templar's Verdicts then the following could happen. When Execution Sentence lands it absorbs all debuff stacks from the Target and increases the damage done based on stacks consumed. OR Keep it as normal if the mechanic isnt changed to debuff stacks.
-(Consecration): If the ability becomes baseline make a talent called Turalyon's Might and greatly increase the damage done of this but put a bigger CD on it. OR Keep it as Consecration and buff its damage.

30 row: With CS clearly needing a damage buff we want to make this look like you have a choice with how you want to play.
-The Fires of Justice: Keep as is (With CS buff in damage it will be plenty)
-Zeal: Deals 300% weapon damage as Holy. (If you are going to go the slow route that has minor cleave vs the proc and enhanced damage of CS then it needs to ignore armor)
-Greater Judgment: Given the mechanic change to ONLY Templar's Verdict this could become something better. Increases the damage of Judgment by X% and in addition your Judgment hits all enemies within 10 Yards of your primary target. Lower CD by 2 - 4 seconds.

45
This row is 100% fine.

60 Like the 30 row NEEDS work
-Virtue's Blade: Either this will do 1 of 2 things. Either we dont have Art of War (Which we need) and this causes attacks to have a chance to refresh the CD. OR Which im gunning for personally is that your Blade of Justice has a chance to strike 1 - 3 additional times (Damage of this proc may be reduced)
-Blade of Wrath: Clearly needs to be 400% as Holy. Said it before, I 100% believe it now.
-Divine Hammer: 1 of 2 things. Either 1 Keep it generating 1 Holy Power and deal 400% weapon over 8 seconds OR 2 which needs to happen IMO, it becomes its own ability, does not generate Holy Power, becomes Filler and damage remains the same as it is now. It makes no sense ascetically anyway to replace swords that smite people with floating hammers.

75 I think all the talents here need to be tweaked in a way to all be viable choices. All should offer some damage.
-Justicar's Vengeance: No longer costs Holy Power. Instead does the same thing it does now but on a 30 second to 1 minute CD.
-Eye for an Eye: Now reduces all damage taken by 35%, when you use this ability any time you are dealt damage your primary target if in melee range is hit for 140% weapon damage.
-Word of Glory: Gain x% damage for each target healed, this lasts y seconds. This effect stacks.

90 Since we have Baseline mobility with Divine Steed and Pursuit in this all of these options are viable. Need thoughts here.
-Divine Intervention: Keep as is
-Soul of the Crusader: Increase the duration of Divine Steed by X. In addition your Heart of the Crusader now stacks with other movement effects.
-Pursuit Unending: Pursuit of Justice now gains 5% more movement speed per Holy Power you have stacking up to 3 times.

100
-Divine Purpose: Either keep proc or increase back to 25%
-Sanctified Wrath: Fine as is.
--Animation: Should be buffed lol make us go full gold. Something thats like WE GONE SUPER YO
-Equality: NOW this is the big one. They are not getting rid of this, we know this. But I talked to a few people, we have a middle ground figured out. And this will require some words to explain.

Artifact
-Wake of Ashes: Fine
-Ashes to Ashes: I think this needs to be temporary holy power.
-Echo of the Highlord: FFS ANIMATION CHANGE PLEASE!
-Divine Tempest: Given the change in damage proposed for Divine Storm id say remove the 20% more damage.

As it is, overpowered when it hits, if nerfed it will be too weak to use. There have been A TON of suggestions on this one, all of you are right but with how they are the middle ground is a buff and a nerf to this.
Buff: Remove the target cap, maybe increase the damage done.
Nerf: Put a cast timer on it 2 - 4 seconds.
This way it can be balanced in the sense of in PvP if you get hit by this you damn deserved it. I would also say for PvP if the damage is too hectic grant it a meteor effect on top if needed for PvP only. But if you are going to sit there, take a talent like this its because in pve your strat somehow requires it or pvp you are in rated and stuff gotta blow up.

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ALSO: As noted at start of post, this is a rough draft.

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I think personally having Judgment affecting ONLY 2 TV would be good. Im only getting 2 in regardless. Greater Judgment could infact add it to affect a 3rd maybe.

[Alindra]

-Judgment: We can either do 1 of two things here, they want this mechanic the way it is. It is central to everything we do and mastery but I say we could make it work with a few more restrictions and buff other things in tandem so we could either 1. Keep it as normal or 2. Your next 2 Templar's Verdicts deal X% more damage on this target. Either way would and should not affect Divine Storm or Justicar's Vengeance and ill get into why further down.

...

-Divine Storm: Damage buffed to the same damage Templar's Verdict has, no longer affected by Judgment. Since Judgment would be TV exclusive only then our Divine Storm needs to be buffed greatly.

If there is no interaction between Judgment and DS, then once we hit a certain number of targets (depending on mastery%), it would provide zero gains. For example:

<100% Mastery: At 2 targets or more, there is no point in casting TV. Judgment debuff provides no benefit.
100%-200% Mastery: 1-2 targets = TV; 3+ targets = DS (no benefit)
200%-300% Mastery: 1-3 targets = TV; 4+ targets = DS (no benefit)

That's not great. I understand it's intended to focus on ST, but DS needs to have some interaction with our mastery (even if it's just raw +X%, which is some fraction of the normal debuff strength).

15 Row: This row seems stable over all but a few tweaks could be done to match the above.
-Final Verdict: 1 of 2 options; Your Templar's Verdict increases the damage of your next Templar's Verdict by X for Y seconds stacking up to Z times. OR Increases the damage of Tempar's Verdict by 20% and when you use Templar's Verdict you have a chance to make your next Divine Storm free and deal X% more damage.

Interesting, but the first option would make our ramp up even worse. Now we'd need Judgment plus FV stacks to start doing nominal dps.

-Echo of the Highlord: FFS ANIMATION CHANGE PLEASE!

I've seen this posted before, but never noticed it in any of the Ret videos I've seen. What is the animation?

[Temna]

@Ulthane First congrats you lucky so and so. Now I agree on some of the points there, but heres my Devil's Advocacy on the matter;

Judgement just effecting one ability seems really counter to the whole exercise of judgement itself. I understand and see the logic in rolling the damage into DS itself but I feel as if it defeats the whole window design they are going for. I think self buffing is probably the best case scenario for Judgement as it keeps the design intact and fixes the AoE issue nicely.

30% guaranteed on BoM would be game breaking I feel, I think 10-15 would be an easier sell.

Thought on ES: Maybe have it store a portion of all your damage for its duration, then deals X of that as holy when it pops? Might be neat, but might also be another needless DPS timey thingy, not sure how it would mesh but its a thought.

300% holy damage would make Zeal WAY too strong even at st, given that you offered CS be at around that range, would say about 200 would be an easier sell.

JV, I would love for this to become a Chi Explosion style talent, given that Chi Explosion was one of the more fun WW talents and is now RIP, could be a fun design window to play with I think.

35% AR on a 1min cd seems a bit too steep, would feel better at 25-30 i think.

DI as is, change Pursuit Unending to Crusade because it sounds better, and Soul of the Crusader maybe add a player induced slow resist to it.

Stole this from the feedback thread, maybe have AW (and SW by extension) remove Judgements CD for its duration.

[Ulthane]

If there is no interaction between Judgment and DS, then once we hit a certain number of targets (depending on mastery%), it would provide zero gains. For example:

<100% Mastery: At 2 targets or more, there is no point in casting TV. Judgment debuff provides no benefit.
100%-200% Mastery: 1-2 targets = TV; 3+ targets = DS (no benefit)
200%-300% Mastery: 1-3 targets = TV; 4+ targets = DS (no benefit)

That's not great. I understand it's intended to focus on ST, but DS needs to have some interaction with our mastery (even if it's just raw +X%, which is some fraction of the normal debuff strength).



Interesting, but the first option would make our ramp up even worse. Now we'd need Judgment plus FV stacks to start doing nominal dps.




I've seen this posted before, but never noticed it in any of the Ret videos I've seen. What is the animation?

First point: It has been brought up that perhaps Mastery could just buff Divine Storm on it's own. That would fix a ton. Reason being is that they INTEND Judgment to be single target, since this is the case they could easily throw the hammer around and make mastery buff divine storm. During such an AoE heavy time you could actually be super liberal with Judgment and your game play changes dramatically. @ruiizu I think you brought up this point at times.

2nd point: I thought that to, thought to bring it up. In this event this you could keep it as it is IF mastery were to buff Divine Storm as well. But if the former is a bad idea turning FV into a DS proc would be VERY fun.

3rd: Oh its horrible, i dont have the stuff to make a video but ill give you the run down.
-Templar's Verdict: Upon using this a second ashbringer appears mid air and slices the target then vanishes.
-Divine Storm: As the storm happens a few Ashbringers are points up swirling.
--Divine Tempest: They move with the swirl.

I also want to say Flash of Light is a god send this time around, its not BAD at all at 110. It heals CHUNKS. Very noticeably as well.

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@Ulthane First congrats you lucky so and so. Now I agree on some of the points there, but heres my Devil's Advocacy on the matter;

Judgement just effecting one ability seems really counter to the whole exercise of judgement itself. I understand and see the logic in rolling the damage into DS itself but I feel as if it defeats the whole window design they are going for. I think self buffing is probably the best case scenario for Judgement as it keeps the design intact and fixes the AoE issue nicely.

30% guaranteed on BoM would be game breaking I feel, I think 10-15 would be an easier sell.

Thought on ES: Maybe have it store a portion of all your damage for its duration, then deals X of that as holy when it pops? Might be neat, but might also be another needless DPS timey thingy, not sure how it would mesh but its a thought.

300% holy damage would make Zeal WAY too strong even at st, given that you offered CS be at around that range, would say about 200 would be an easier sell.

JV, I would love for this to become a Chi Explosion style talent, given that Chi Explosion was one of the more fun WW talents and is now RIP, could be a fun design window to play with I think.

35% AR on a 1min cd seems a bit too steep, would feel better at 25-30 i think.

DI as is, change Pursuit Unending to Crusade because it sounds better, and Soul of the Crusader maybe add a player induced slow resist to it.

Stole this from the feedback thread, maybe have AW (and SW by extension) remove Judgements CD for its duration.

As above I would say that putting DS into our mastery would in fact help a ton. It would look like this with the gear I have right now at 110 with 1928 rating
-Divine Judgment
--Judgment increased by: 47%
--Templar's Verdict during window increased by: 23%
--Divine Storm increased by 11.5%

That is an excellent thought on ES, i have tested it out. Its LAME. VERY LAME. So actually it would be awesome to do base damage plus stored damage.
-Execution Sentence: For the next 8 seconds you deal damage it builds Execution Sentence, upon impact it consumes all the damage you stored + an additional holy damage. Works with Judgment so if the window was timed super right it would be super cool.

Oh and trust me, 300% Zeal as Holy is not over powered. Its barely hitting as it is. If I were to be SUPER vindictive about this id be like
-Crusader Strike: 300%
-Zeal: 300% as holy

Taking a non holy damage Crusader Strike would get you procs basically. Talents that offer procs would be good for this. But again in the final im going to put a variable number that shows between 250 - 300% as holy with these things. The range it should be.

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I really wont post this huge thing up until i can see a consensus with people in here about the majority though so I appreciate it.

[Temna]

@Ulthane I dont disagree that Zeal hits for nothing atm, but if you have CS hitting at 300% wd and Zeal hitting at 300% holy damage, then Zeal becomes more valuable then CS because it now ignores armour. The reason I chose that number is because it was slight more then a 30% reduction, bringing it in line with you CS upper variant.

[Ulthane]

ALSo the 110 gear you get at the start is PvP, no mastery to be seen barely. Its mostly versatility.

But to compile: My general feedback is the same
-PvE: Mobility is shit, we need a passive and a cd. (Pursuit and Divine Steed)
-PvE: Defensives are bad
-PvE: Greater Blessing Utility could be tweaked to amazing status
-PvE: Utility: With DS being buffed as suggested and Art of War working with FoL we would see proper utility but over all bad.
-PvE: Rotation: THIS can work, Wake of Ashes really gives you a burst of uptime, its really fun, really good. I knew instantly upon seeing it that Wake and Ashes would be amazing and it is and its noticeable. Judgment as it is and how it works with abilities are creating problems, having mastery affect Divine Storm as well would be nice, the proposed changes actually would fix a ton. If Consecration was Baseline there would be no actual downtime, except for minor bits.

So we all on the same page.

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@Ulthane I dont disagree that Zeal hits for nothing atm, but if you have CS hitting at 300% wd and Zeal hitting at 300% holy damage, then Zeal becomes more valuable then CS because it now ignores armour. The reason I chose that number is because it was slight more then a 30% reduction, bringing it in line with you CS upper variant.

The thing is it wont. Right now Crusader Strike hits for 160% weapon damage, Zeal hits for 285% weapon damage. The fires of Justice actually lower CS by 1 second AND give it a proc. Meaning flat out Crusader Strike will do even damage and then some to Zeal even if 300% as holy.

Its a 4.5 second 300% as holy damage vs a 3.5 second 300% physical with a chance to lower the cost of your finisher. it evens out.

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Though of all the things to say anything bad about im glad its CS XD means im close to getting something good out.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Crusader Strike should hit 200% wpn Damage. Whatever it is right now(150% at minimum at the end of beta). Zeal doing damage as Holy may make it super powerful. IMO if it does that much damage as Holy Damage I think the cleave shouldn't be there. I feel it might be too powerful since it ignores armor.

I don't even know if Greater Judgement belongs in the same tier that is like a Crusader Strike row.

[Ulthane]

Crusader Strike should hit 200% wpn Damage. Whatever it is right now(150% at minimum at the end of beta). Zeal doing damage as Holy may make it super powerful. IMO if it does that much damage as Holy Damage I think the cleave shouldn't be there. I feel it might be too powerful since it ignores armor.

I don't even know if Greater Judgement belongs in the same tier that is like a Crusader Strike row.

The only thing I can think of is bringing back Crusader Flurry but thats it honestly. With the way it is now Greater Judgment just needs to be the BOOM hammer things down with all the Judgments. With the damn way mastery scales its insane... so example.

680 gear on my level 100 i have the following
-3645 rating
-Judgment: increased by 144%
-Consumers in debuff: increased by 72%

With the way its scaling and how high its going id imagine the following: Greater Judgment having a lower CD plus hitting more targets means that in all AoE situations the Judgment damage alone would be insane to add into everything.

Zeal already has nerfs on how much each cleave hits additionally.

As it stands our fillers being generators kinda hit like wet noodles. Given everything those needs a buff and mastery just needs to be tweaked to include Divine Storm.

[Found]

Yeah, the PvP gear is balanced differently from the 680 gear from the level 100 premades - or at least I thought it was?

EDIT: also, for what it's worth, once again here are the mastery formulas for 110 and 100:

100:

finisher% = 1.75 * (8 + rating / 110)
judgment% = 3.5 * (8 + rating / 110)

110:

finisher% = 1.75 * (8 + rating / 350)
judgment% = 3.5 * (8 + rating / 350)

The coefficient on live corresponding to the 1.75 and 3.5 from beta is 2.12.

[Ulthane]

Yeah, the PvP gear is balanced differently from the 680 gear from the level 100 premades - or at least I thought it was?

It is balanced differently, but the point i want to illustrate is our mastery scales VERY high.

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Like my main on live is 745 ilvl. And he has a lot of mastery on his gear with sockets etc and this guy in 680 wont have as much. Point being: Mastery is god tier stat with how much it scales. If they can get Divine Storm into the mix it would solve so many problems on its own while keeping their Judgment design.

[Found]

It is balanced differently, but the point i want to illustrate is our mastery scales VERY high.

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Like my main on live is 745 ilvl. And he has a lot of mastery on his gear with sockets etc and this guy in 680 wont have as much. Point being: Mastery is god tier stat with how much it scales. If they can get Divine Storm into the mix it would solve so many problems on its own while keeping their Judgment design.

For comparison, on live with 3645 mastery rating you'd expect to have 87.2% mastery. That's a lot of mastery rating. Probably more than most, or even maybe any, of us have even on very geared characters. The 680 premade set is incredibly mastery-heavy.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Unless they decide to change their design for Mastery to be a Single Target stat gain, adding Divine Storm to it would compromise that said philosophy. Personally I think the philosophy is silly but Blizz will be Blizz.



If it hasn't been said enough, Equality should go into the PVP tier. If Kalgan's baby has to live it should go to the PVP Tier.