Why is exclusivity bad for WoW (and other MMOs)?

[orangeaccord311]

Again there's this reiteration of the idea that people should be pushed into doing organized raiding as if that's something they should want to do. The bulk of the MMORPG market does not want to do organized raiding. They have been given every chance to do it over a decade in multiple ways in multiple MMORPGs, even been heavily pushed into it in multiple ways over a decade, and yet given the choice most of the players avoid it.

The idea that WoW is just missing the whatever design choice that will push people into organized raiding and then everyone will be happy is fundamentally erroneous.

All the evidence of decades shows that only a small niche want to do organized raiding and pushing people outside that niche into raiding only makes them unhappy. The actual correct design decision is to accept that fact and not do that shit.

What is there to do as far as end game progression, besides raiding?

[Deleted]

-snip-

Lots of broad statements there. Multiple difficulties does not create a repetitive grind through the same things more than there would otherwise be. If you are bad, you probably won't ever clear heroic, so you stick to normal and lfr and parts of heroic. If you are good, you shouldn't see LFR or normal more than the very beginning of an expansion. Above that people stick to heroic and mythic almost entirely. Then you mention alt gearing, but that would be repetitive either way, and is certainly something that an individual will have to decide if he wants to do or not. Competitive guilds doing it doesn't mean that something is wrong with the game, it means that they are taking competition too far. I wouldn't mind if Blizzard made lockouts account-wide, but I'm sure others would not be pleased with that.

1. Some people are inspired to be better. Others are not. LFR doesn't have an impact on that.
2. Raiding scene dying has nothing to do with LFR.
3. People getting used to clearing raids easily has nothing to do with LFR, and everything to do with an elitist mindset (Ugh, these scrubs keep failing on something so simple, they are so not worth my precious time).

Making people do every single previous raid to ever get geared enough to do the current raid tier is not a good idea. Either you didn't play during Vanilla / BC, or you didn't realize how much guild sniping there was. Guy gets geared -> Gets invite from guild that is one tier above current guild -> Guy leaves current guild to join "better" guild. All guilds get screwed routinely.

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What is there to do as far as end game progression, besides raiding?

Dungeons, professions, LFR (Since MoP, ish), reputations, quests, etc. A lot of people play the game for various reasons besides raiding, and that is fine. Mythic+ dungeons will now also allow people to progress through content in a meaningful way besides raiding. I'm looking forward to that part of Legion the most, since it fits me so much better than raiding does.

[orangeaccord311]

Dungeons, professions, LFR (Since MoP, ish), reputations, quests, etc. A lot of people play the game for various reasons besides raiding, and that is fine. Mythic+ dungeons will now also allow people to progress through content in a meaningful way besides raiding. I'm looking forward to that part of Legion the most, since it fits me so much better than raiding does.

The problem is that while all of that seems good in theory, Blizzard does not want to invest resources to design those systems. Dungeons remain stagnant after the first month, never seeing new ones released with content patches anymore. Reputation and profession grinds are a thing of the past. The leveling is a variable joke since you can crash through 1-100 in about a day and half. Mythic + does seem to show promise for alternative avenues of progression. The problem is in order to be competitive in those ladder climbs you will need to do mythic raids. But for those looking to go at their own pace with a small group of friends it at least does seem a step in the right direction.

[Deleted]

The problem is that while all of that seems good in theory, Blizzard does not want to invest resources to design those systems. Dungeons remain stagnant after the first month, never seeing new ones released with content patches anymore. Reputation and profession grinds are a thing of the past. The leveling is a variable joke since you can crash through 1-100 in about a day and half. Mythic + does seem to show promise for alternative avenues of progression. The problem is in order to be competitive in those ladder climbs you will need to do mythic raids. But for those looking to go at their own pace with a small group of friends it at least does seem a step in the right direction.

Professions are more engaging than they have been in a looong time in Legion. Dungeons are getting scaling difficulty, with scaling rewards, making them relevant to do for as long as mythic raids are relevant to do, which is pretty much forever. Might also lead to them making new dungeons again, yay. Reputation is probably going to be too easy to get in Legion because of world quests, but that doesn't bother me too much. But, I'll concede that point.

We can't know yet if you have to do mythic raiding to stay competitive. Very likely if you want to be at the top right from the start, since raiding will most likely still be the fastest way to get the best gear, but eventually that evens out and you can then compete based on skill. Unless mythic raids give set items with bonuses that are better than anything you can get through mythic+ dungeons, at which point, yes, you would have to do mythic raids to stay at the top. The journey is still there though for people who don't want to raid, and that is no small thing.

So we at least agree that it is a step in the right direction. I'm hopeful that they can keep it going with content patches, but time will tell on that one.

[Darththeo]

Irony much? You feel entitled to beat a game because you paid the same for it as other people? You don't play dota and complaint that you get destroyed by your opponent, you learn from your terrible playstyle and get better. Don't feed me bullshit about having to play a specific spec to be able to compete. There are plenty of things you can play at a competetive level (if you are competent). What you dont seem to understand is that that multiple difficulties is creating a toxic and repetetive environment for everyone, not just the high end players (through the multiple alt runs to maximize gear for mains etc) - Yes the game is worse for people like me who (used) to do all mythic content. But can you honestly say that you get ANY enjoyment out of playing a difficulty where success is guarenteed, and where there is ZERO difference between playing like a mythic progression raider or a total scrub?

I can tell you that i used to be a terrible player, i used to be awful at the game, but the fact that i was constantly missing out on content made me push to become a better player. And FYI: By terrible i mean as in; not clearing karazhan until a few weeks before WotLK released.

Having a medium-high barrier to entry is very good for the game, since it inspires people to become better. Currently the raiding scene is dying, people have gotten used to clearing a boss within few pulls since the community as a whole has gotten lazy (i am guilty of this too by the way) And yet, back in the day bosses took weeks if not months to kill and everyone found bosskills fascinating. Which brings me to my next point:

Currently there is absolutely no point in doing the previous raids. If you are clearing a new raid, and another one comes out then the previous content is redundant. I think WotlK had a better model with easy entry raids like Naxx, OS and to some degree EoE, since the bosses were doable (they had easy numbers and simple mechanics yet room for massive player improvement. This type of raiding made people hungry, it sparked an interest and to someone like me (who sucked back then) the difficulty was a perfect setup for a harder Ulduar raid. Even though i didn't clear Ulduar back then i still found the place mytic and legendary, and the fact that i got to miss out on it (which was a good thing guys!) made me try to improve my playstyle. And for the people who say that it is too time-consuming, please.. This is an MMO, and MMO's are timesinks. Even if you play a few hours a week you will have time to improve, and nobody is stopping you.
And it's not even like you need some ridiculous mechanical skill either.. You can be a good raider in WoW, but the skill required to play this game properly (on a raiding level, excluding PVP) is very very low, try to compare it to CS, DotA, LoL etc and you will probably get my point. You can literally log in and play your character without any sort of warmup for 3 hours a week and do a great job if you know what you are supposed to do. If you can't manage to improve then im sorry, but you don't deserve to see the content and it's really that simple.

I am not going to reply besides tell you to go read other posts I made into this topic. I am not repeating myself further.

[Dormie]

LOL that guy is yet another faux "hardcore" who raids LFR and then makes up excuses why he can't do any better. It's crazy shit but there are tons of them around here. They have impenetrable cognitive dissonance and dunning kruger effect to the max. In reality anyone can go straight to at least normal with only a modicum of effort, but they'll scream about lazy casuals one second and how much they love hard content the next second and then the next second admit they can't be bothered putting in any effort to go beyond the easiest possible path. It's a bizarre phenomenon.

Ya my sig proves not but w/e. I just have a clue on what I'm talking about and saying shit like "don't use flying mounts if you don't like them" is unrealistic bullshit used by people with no clue. You live in a fantasy world.

People play WoW to their full ability, that includes doing LFR.

[Az0na]

People complain pay as much as you do so they deserve same as you get are idiots.

You pay to play the game. Thats only thing you pay for. Get access to the game and do what ever the fuck you want with in rules set by blizzard.

Does not entitel you to anything els. Want top gear work for it, you don,t pay for that.

Snowflake shizzle sure if you work hard achieve that hard getting item congrats. If others want it they need work as same as hard as you did. And if you don,t want to work for something then do not but don,t complain you got the rights to have that item because you pay for the game because that is utter bullshit.

You pay to access this game, expansion and monthly pay so blizzard makes money and maintain the servers. Thats what you pay for nothing more nothing less.

Exclusive stuff is good. It make people set goals and reach them. Feel good about it and set a new goal to gain. And if you can,t or want to spend time into that then do something els you do want to.

[Deleted]

Ya my sig proves not but w/e. I just have a clue on what I'm talking about and saying shit like "don't use flying mounts if you don't like them" is unrealistic bullshit used by people with no clue. You live in a fantasy world.

People play WoW to their full ability, that includes doing LFR.

"People play WoW to their full ability, that includes doing LFR" - You really can't see a problem with that statement? Really?

[Jewsco]

I.... What? You - what - who....

Again, one last time, before I give you up as a troll;

- SOME people care about Mounts. SPECIFIC people care about Mounts. You don't see every-single-player in existence farming Ulduar & Icecrown Citadel today for Mimiron's Head & Invincible. SOME people do. SPECIFIC people do.
- Just like SOME people like the Pokemon minigame, while others (myself, for example) don't.
- VERY, VERY few people enlist for Mythic Raiding in order to progress through 7-14 Bosses ONLY in order to get the Mount off the End Boss. Most Mount Collectors will just buy a boost, for 100K (or whatever it costs), & that's it, the end, done.
- Likewise with Titles, & Achievements.

- Yes, there are Raiders who are also Mount Collectors. Yes, those people are willing to Progress Raid through Heroic, Mythic, whatever in order to get to the End Boss, & then keep showing up until they win the roll/whatever on the End Boss' Mount. Allow me to give you an epiphany now, however; THESE PEOPLE ARE A MINORITY, A SELECTIVE, TINY PORTION OF THE ENTIRE PLAYERBASE.

NONE of what you have listed is a major incentive to convince LFR Raiders to move on from LFR. The only major incentive right now is "I want more of a challenge," & that generally only applies to people who are already Raiding, it doesn't automatically convince new players that they should try out Normal, it doesn't say to them "hey, check out this awesome "better" experience," no, it just says "oh, btw, there's more Difficulty Modes, if you want, but if you don't, it's ok, because LFR gives you pretty much everything already, anyway."

No Degn, I don't have a magical all-encompassing solution to incentivize LFR Raiders into signing up for higher Difficulties, though I do believe it is within reason to expect Blizzard to have come up with something by now, don't you?


As for gear; yes, I admit, I don't like LFR dropping Purples either. I don't like Heroic Dungeons dropping purples. I'd love it if Purples were limited exclusively to Mythic. Regardless, that's irrelevant to the argument you (Jewsco) are trying to make here, so I repeat myself yet again; gear is not an incentive. Gear is a by-product of the design system. Is gear nice? Yeah, I admit, I loved showing off my T3 in Orgrimmar. Did I raid Naxx 40 because I wanted "exclusive pixels"? No. I Raided Naxx 40 because I enjoyed it. Did I hate them taking away our exclusive purples? Yes, I did.

I still think it's disgraceful that Heroic Dungeons drop epics, but that's irrelevant. "Nobody" Raids for "exclusive pixels" anymore, even if they once did, so it's not an incentive. The Stats on the gear aren't an incentive, the textures aren't an incentive, gear, is not an incentive.*

Do fights emerge from Loot drops? Yes they do. They always have, they always will. Do people show up to Raid in order to fight over loot drops, or do they fight over loot drops because they want a specific item that's dropped, because it's a major upgrade to them? Think about that for a while.

*Well, granted there's a tiny minority of people who still want their digital epeen to be as big as possible, hence they want the highest iLevel gear as possible, but again, selective. Extremely, highly, absolutely selective.

Do I need to work your own arguement against you to show how much bullshit you are spewing?
I can say some people even before lfr didn't care for raiding right? Some due to liking pvp, some due to time constraints, some just because they plain didn't care. So how did lfr change that I'll ask you once again? If anything if .001% did lfr and decided they wanted to raid at a higher level guess what? More are choosing to raid at a higher level. To say no one raids for gear, mounts, pets, titles or even a challenge is pure bullshit. But keep trying to blame lfr. Lfr is the reason raids have gotten bigger and better or did you miss firelands and ds? If lfr ruined your desire guess what you only speak for yourself add in no one needs to do lfr and all your ranting is pure garbage but keep it up I like watching you make yourself look foolish as you talk in circles.

[Deleted]

People complain pay as much as you do so they deserve same as you get are idiots.

You pay to play the game. Thats only thing you pay for. Get access to the game and do what ever the fuck you want with in rules set by blizzard.

Does not entitel you to anything els. Want top gear work for it, you don,t pay for that.

Snowflake shizzle sure if you work hard achieve that hard getting item congrats. If others want it they need work as same as hard as you did. And if you don,t want to work for something then do not but don,t complain you got the rights to have that item because you pay for the game because that is utter bullshit.

You pay to access this game, expansion and monthly pay so blizzard makes money and maintain the servers. Thats what you pay for nothing more nothing less.

Exclusive stuff is good. It make people set goals and reach them. Feel good about it and set a new goal to gain. And if you can,t or want to spend time into that then do something els you do want to.

"Want top gear work for it, you don't pay for that" - Noone here is arguing that. LFR certainly doesn't give you "top gear". Mythic does that, and mythic is hard, and noone is arguing about that. People who enjoy LFR just want to be able to continue doing that, and noone has been able to provide a good reason for why they shouldn't.

[Dormie]

"People play WoW to their full ability, that includes doing LFR" - You really can't see a problem with that statement? Really?

There isn't one. If there's something to gain from LFR, people will do it. The end.

[Jewsco]

Yeah going back two pages, we seemed more in-synch. Weird, we seem to have wandered off. Anyway.

I'll repeat myself one last time, then;

LFR isn't the problem. "Tourist Mode" isn't the problem. The LFR implementation is the problem. Blizzard copy/pasting the controversial LFD system & then not making it better with time, but worse, is the problem.

I'd love for LFR to be removed, but I know that won't happen, so I'll gladly settle for it being "fixed," but even fixed is subjective. Make it harder, people will go balls-to-the-wall, so what can be done?

I admit, when it was first announced, I was furious, I saw it as one of the dumbest moves Blizzard had ever done (& I stand by that today), but now I accept that it's impossible to remove. It cannot be removed. I've said this before, I'll keep saying it. There is no removing LFR at this point. Right now, today, I'd just settle for seeing it become less of an endless drama pit, perhaps with some afore-mentioned "social improvements" (see previous page), but even those would only work so well.

I'd even settle for Blizzard figuring out "some way" (no, I seriously don't know what way) to get LFR Raiders to move beyond LFR after a certain point. What way? I don't know, but some way.

Telling people "hey, you know, there's exclusive Mounts, Titles, Achievements, etc. in the higher Difficulties" only gets so many of them incentivized.

I agree, LFR works as a Tourist Mode. In that regard, it fully satisfies its role, by far. What it doesn't do, & it should do, is at least try to get people to move beyond LFR after a while, however. Yes, I know most people are fully satisfied with Tourist Mode, but new players for example never really get any real incentives to go beyond LFR, because "why bother?"

It's all fine if you don't want to go beyond/can't go beyond (time, or whatever), but there should at least be clear incentives to do so regardless, if you actually can/want to, not just things that appeal to a minor bunch of specific player groups.

Wait now what bullshit are you spewing? Thier is an incentive to go past lfr the same ones thier has always been but for some reason you think you can disregard them. Gear, mounts, pets, titles, and finally challenge are and always have been the reason. But in your delusional mind to fit your agenda you can conviently disregard them. Truly a unque way to make an arguement.
Overlook and disregard everyone else's points and only cling to your own. You truly are special

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"Want top gear work for it, you don't pay for that" - Noone here is arguing that. LFR certainly doesn't give you "top gear". Mythic does that, and mythic is hard, and noone is arguing about that. People who enjoy LFR just want to be able to continue doing that, and noone has been able to provide a good reason for why they shouldn't.

But I don't like it so it should go away. Is their arguement. Pretty sad isn't it

[Deleted]

There isn't one. If there's something to gain from LFR, people will do it. The end.

Exactly, and there isn't anything to gain from it, if you do anything beyond heroic dungeons. The end. Glad we agree

[Jewsco]

Ya my sig proves not but w/e. I just have a clue on what I'm talking about and saying shit like "don't use flying mounts if you don't like them" is unrealistic bullshit used by people with no clue. You live in a fantasy world.

People play WoW to their full ability, that includes doing LFR.

In what world is doing lfr playing the game to its full ability? Getting inferior gear and not learning mechanics is playing to ones full ability? Maybe you need to do lfr but every progression raider I know didn't even touch it this expansion unless they choose to for valor or such and even then most like myself didn't. No one has to do lfr, no one has to raid, no one has to do pvp, no one has to do pet battles etc... We get to choose what we want to and like to do. Did you not know that?

[Dormie]

Exactly, and there isn't anything to gain from it, if you do anything beyond heroic dungeons. The end. Glad we agree

So you're clueless, got it.

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In what world is doing lfr playing the game to its full ability? Getting inferior gear and not learning mechanics is playing to ones full ability? Maybe you need to do lfr but every progression raider I know didn't even touch it this expansion unless they choose to for valor or such and even then most like myself didn't. No one has to do lfr, no one has to raid, no one has to do pvp, no one has to do pet battles etc... We get to choose what we want to and like to do. Did you not know that?

So tell me why would anyone do LFR?

[Deleted]

Exclusivity is okay, to a degree. However early WoW exclusivity models would not be feasible in a game designed to appeal to a wide audience. The amount of $$$ value of dev time required these days to produce the end-game we're going through would not be economically feasible if the greater populace didn't get to partake in it.

Sure it stings to not get 'l33t club only' raids like SWP (and arguably Black Temple, but only arguably) were back in the day, but that wave of change started with the format change to 25 man standard raid sizes.

[Deleted]

So you're clueless, got it.

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So tell me why would anyone do LFR?

Because they genuinely enjoy it, and they don't do any other content that gives them higher ilvl gear.

[Deleted]

But in your delusional mind to fit your agenda you can conviently disregard them. Truly a unque way to make an arguement.
Overlook and disregard everyone else's points and only cling to your own. You truly are special

That's funny, because it sounds exactly like what you're doing......

See, between the two of us here, you're the only one who's looking foolish & ranting in circles, blindly shouting the same stuff at me over & over screaming about how I'm wrong, without actually proving how.

Hell, without even responding to my arguments, you're just skipping straight to the parroting & insults.

[Gilgameshh]

Yes. It is why LFR was designed and created.

And it's just coincidence that it came out unfinished and underdeveloped in an expansion that was bleeding subs due to lack of content. Sounds perfectly reasonable. It may have been the original intention, but it's certainly not why it was released. The original intentions for it have never come to fruition outside of simply being able to play the content. The design is bad for the game and I'm not going to continually post to people who refuse to read anything but their cherry picked responses to explain it yet again. I would suggest you read through more of the responses but it's clear you have no intention other than to attempt insults and belittle people.

Then your opinion is worthless. I place no importance whatsoever on someone who claims to think WOW could use improvement..and then admits to playing an illegal server using pirated content.

Yes, find any reason to make my opinion worthless so you don't have to debate with someone who can logically counter your points every step of the way. Not surprised.

And your answer is...?

I guess you're not as bright as I thought. Gave you the answer. It was a stupid question to begin with.

[Deleted]

Because they genuinely enjoy it, and they don't do any other content that gives them higher ilvl gear.

They dont. Just go go join LFR and ask player if they enyoj it. I did and most of them do it becouse it rewards valor abnd easy gear no becouse they enjoy doing it. 95% of them just wanted get over it as fast as they can and leave. Most of those people would rather spend progressing in world, dungeons and propably in future also in raids but you know LFR kinda kills it for them.