Venezuela: how the socialist paradise turned into debt and hyperinflation hell

[Saiona]

I love the part where comrade Endus swoops in to defend socialism lol. Go talk to eastern europeans and ask them how much they liked socialism. It doesn't work and frankly this new generation of Democratic Socialist "re branded socialism" makes me sick and should be interned

[Captain N]

If authoritarian causes all the problems with socialism, why was Yugoslavia relatively un-screwed by its authoritarian leader? Tito was by any measure an autocrat, but Yugoslavia was prosperous relative to the hellholes of the Cold War's 2nd world.

I never claimed Authoritarianism caused all problems. In fact there are cases like Yugoslavia where it can actually work. Claiming the exception as the rule is dishonest however. The issue revolves around people claiming that all Socialism is in fact Authoritarian and by definition it isn't.

[ArguesWithStrangers]

Backflips that are graceful, look good, and have great landings. Meanwhile you're just fumbling around and falling face first into the dirt trying to push socialism off as some kind of evil system that will never work.

Most recent socialist failures had to do with the ripples of economic failure from the US housing burst. While the US was able to bail out a lot of businesses and support its poor, many smaller countries did not have that kind of volume. Their "socialist" systems were not designed to handle a sudden burden from irresponsible unchecked cronyism putting millions out of jobs and onto welfare. In countries without safety nets, those people just starved.

Denying it is denying the 2007 economic crisis and the subsequent ripples across the world's economies.

Care to venture a guess as to why the US economy is able to absorb such enormous folly and so many other countries cannot? Hint........ it starts with a C. Let's not forget that the entire sub-prime crisis was caused by one of our more socialist policies, where the federal government encouraged and required private banks to pass out gobs of debt to artificially inflate the housing market. Had those banks actually been on the hook for their faulty lending practices (as a more capitalist system would have required) they would not have taken so many bad risks. Now back to the topic at hand.

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I love the part where comrade Endus swoops in to defend socialism lol. Go talk to eastern europeans and ask them how much they liked socialism. It doesn't work and frankly this new generation of Democratic Socialist "re branded socialism" makes me sick and should be interned

Internment is a bit harsh don't you think? I propose a different solution. We let them get out of college and their parent's basement as the case may be and actually require them to get jobs and manage their own lives. The real world has a way of stamping out stupid.

[Deleted]

Thanks to basing their economy on oil, chavez was able to implement loads of social policies that dropped poverty rates from 24% to 8% and increased health and literacy massively.
Venezuela wasn't an industrialized country with a diversified economy anyway. not before chavez not after chavez.

Venezuelan here. I emigrated on 2010.

The bolded part is very interesting, and it is something that I see used as an argument over and over again by Chavez's supporters. My response to this is always the same question:

Wasn't this a revolution? where is the revolution? As a country we are worse now than in the 80s. The revolution was a fucking lie, all that was revolutionized are the pockets and bank accounts of the goverment officials... you know I have to send medicines to my grandmother now? because my aunt is unable to find her treatment. The only reason my grandmother isn't dead yet is because I live in Europe and cand send her the medicines she needs. Do you know what happens to the people that doesn't have family outside the country?

[Nadiru]

I never claimed Authoritarianism caused all problems. In fact there are cases like Yugoslavia where it can actually work. Claiming the exception as the rule is dishonest however. The issue revolves around people claiming that all Socialism is in fact Authoritarian and by definition it isn't.

Socialism at least doesn't work with the traditional Marxist-Leninist version of authoritarianism. That doesn't mean socialism doesn't require authoritarianism in practice (if not in theory) and it also doesn't mean that there aren't versions of authoritarian socialism which fit within the acceptable tolerances of most of the pro-socialism posters. Ironically, Endus (who gets the most flak for being an authoritarian) might be the outlier because he's pretty much a left-libertarian, unless every post he's made in the past several years has been completely out of character.

[ArguesWithStrangers]

If authoritarian causes all the problems with socialism, why was Yugoslavia relatively un-screwed by its authoritarian leader? Tito was by any measure an autocrat, but Yugoslavia was prosperous relative to the hellholes of the Cold War's 2nd world.

A benevolent monarch is a lovely form of government so long as the monarch remains benevolent. Not a circumstance you aught to count on when designing your power structures.

[Cyberowl]

I love the part where comrade Endus swoops in to defend socialism lol. Go talk to eastern europeans and ask them how much they liked socialism. It doesn't work and frankly this new generation of Democratic Socialist "re branded socialism" makes me sick and should be interned

You mean communism?

Keep the terms seperated. Socialism is not communism rebranded and all you need to do is take a look into literature.

[Nadiru]

A benevolent monarch is a lovely form of government so long as the monarch remains benevolent. Not a circumstance you aught to count on when designing your power structures.

I'd hardly characterize Tito as "benevolent," which really only strengthens my position about Yugoslavia being weird as heck.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Care to venture a guess as to why the US economy is able to absorb such enormous folly and so many other countries cannot? Hint........ it starts with a C. Let's not forget that the entire sub-prime crisis was caused by one of our more socialist policies, where the federal government encouraged and required private banks to pass out gobs of debt to artificially inflate the housing market. Had those banks actually been on the hook for their faulty lending practices (as a more capitalist system would have required) they would not have taken so many bad risks. Now back to the topic at hand.

LOL WHAT?!?!?!

Okay you must be joking, the repeal of Glass-Steagall was a massive deregulation of banking, which is the epitome of crony capitalism.

Oh wait, it's you, you're honestly trying to spin Glass-Steagall repeal as socialist. Let me laugh so hard that it would make Zeus's thunder jealous.

[ArguesWithStrangers]

WE get it that you have no idea on what socialism really is, no problem most on the far right have no idea what it is and you seem to be no different.

Interesting, as I've posted the definition of socialism twice in this discussion and all you socialists are desperately trying to say that it is something it isn't. I get it, you want a bigger piece of the pie than you think you will be able to produce on your own but don't want to feel bad about it. Sorry to tell you, you should feel bad about it. Now get to work.

[Cyberowl]

Most economists blame the financial crisis on banks evading regulations and a bad loan (toxic papers) bubble created by insurance practices.

Let's stick to the consensus, shall we?

[Joresh]

It blows my mind that it's 2016 and we're still arguing whether or not socialism works

[ArguesWithStrangers]

LOL WHAT?!?!?!

Okay you must be joking, the repeal of Glass-Steagall was a massive deregulation of banking, which is the epitome of crony capitalism.

Oh wait, it's you, you're honestly trying to spin Glass-Steagall repeal as socialist. Let me laugh so hard that it would make Zeus's thunder jealous.

Crony-Capitalism only occurs when business interests are able to use government power to enact legislation that neuters market forces. The banks were told by government to start dealing in bad debt and rescued by government when the bubble burst. Had we relied on market forces, the bad debt would not have been passed about in the first place, and in the event that it had, the banks would have paid the consequences for their folly.

The Federal National Mortgage Association (FNMA), commonly known as Fannie Mae, and Federal Home Loan Mortgage Corporation (FHLMC), better known as Freddie Mac, from which the entire sub-prime crisis stemmed, are both Government Sponsored Enterprises (GSE). All you Ouccpy Wallstreet retards should have been occupying Washington the entire time. Don't blame the markets for the government's mess.

[Gaidax]

No, it's just incompetence, not socialism.

[Deleted]

Crony-Capitalism only occurs when business interests are able to use government power to enact legislation that neuters market forces. The banks were told by government to start dealing in bad debt and rescued by government when the bubble burst. Had we relied on market forces, the bad debt would not have been passed about in the first place, and in the event that it had, the banks would have paid the consequences for their folly.

The Federal National Mortgage Association (FNMA), commonly known as Fannie Mae, and Federal Home Loan Mortgage Corporation (FHLMC), better known as Freddie Mac, from which the entire sub-prime crisis stemmed, are both Government Sponsored Enterprises (GSE). All you Ouccpy Wallstreet retards should have been occupying Washington the entire time. Don't blame the markets for the government's mess.

Actually this is at least partly true

Having been around during the financial crisis, it was scary but everyone knew the government would have to bail out the banks, it was a genuine surprise when they let Lehman and Bear etc go as far as they did, and when it was JP etc taking turns on the chopping block, we all knew government would step in and save everyone's asses

(and they still would bail out the banks if the financial crisis happened again today)

Knowing you have a government backstop means you can go wild with securitising garbage mortgages (and whatever else) and leveraging up, especially with the Fed cutting interest rates so you can push clients into more risk as they hunt for ever-decreasing yield

[Deleted]

Is there a country in South America that's an example of the pinnacle of any system?

I mean, you can rant and rave about how socialism failed Venezuela, but can you then point to a country in South America where unfettered capitalism has just been the bee's knees? Because there seem to be a great number of places where small, ineffectual governments have basically let the major monetary powers (usually drug-related) run slipshod over entire countries. Seems the "free hand of the market" proved fairly ineffective in allowing people the economic means to overcome murderous drug cartels.

Most of South America is all shades of the same spectrum. Largely impoverished, corrupt, or generally lacking in economic infrastructure. Singling out Venezuela is a hollow soap boxing point.



I mean you could look at Bolivia, which has taken socialist measures since the mid-2000s and has actually reduced their poverty rate by 11% in 5 years, but, hey, that doesn't fit the narrative, so... why do that?

No one expects anyone to look at the bigger picture.

Chavez reduced poverty from 24% to 8% plus improvements on health and education. It failed because oil prices went down and corruption.

[ArguesWithStrangers]

No, it's just incompetence, not socialism.

When you place the means of production under the power of a central government, a la socialism, only that government need be incompetent for the whole thing to come down. Capitalism on the other hand allows for shitty businesses to be replaced by effective businesses as nature, and markets abhor a vacuum.

[Blur4stuff]

who was asking to make the US government like Venezuela?

[Deleted]

Venezuelan here. I emigrated on 2010.

The bolded part is very interesting, and it is something that I see used as an argument over and over again by Chavez's supporters. My response to this is always the same question:

Wasn't this a revolution? where is the revolution? As a country we are worse now than in the 80s. The revolution was a fucking lie, all that was revolutionized are the pockets and bank accounts of the goverment officials... you know I have to send medicines to my grandmother now? because my aunt is unable to find her treatment. The only reason my grandmother isn't dead yet is because I live in Europe and cand send her the medicines she needs. Do you know what happens to the people that doesn't have family outside the country?

Data is available from international sources. Poverty dropped between 99 and 2010 by 16% and healthcare and education spending increased. Data is available. Not saying Venezuela was running smoothly. Just saying we can't judge them with the same standards wed judge a modern western country is all.

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When you place the means of production under the power of a central government, a la socialism, only that government need be incompetent for the whole thing to come down. Capitalism on the other hand allows for shitty businesses to be replaced by effective businesses as nature, and markets abhor a vacuum.

That is, until capitalism creates companies so big due to lack of regulation that they get rid of the laws of free market and dictate regulations. Its happening now.

[Independent voter]

Over the weekend, six members of the Venezuelan military were detained by local authorities for stealing goats, the Venezuelan newspaper El Nacional reported Sunday. It said the soldiers confessed to stealing the goats and said they did it to feed themselves, since they had no food left in their barracks.

"It's not a good sign when your military doesn't have enough food, and when the military has been relegated to guarding and protecting food lines," said Jason Marczak, director of the Latin America Economic Growth Initiative at the Atlantic Council. "This is endemic of the problems going on across the country."