[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[Animefreak3K]

Blade of Justice at 12 seconds generating 2 HP(No idea if it's affected by Haste) or BoW(8 second CD)

Both are effected by Haste.

[Alindra]

First point: It has been brought up that perhaps Mastery could just buff Divine Storm on it's own. That would fix a ton. Reason being is that they INTEND Judgment to be single target, since this is the case they could easily throw the hammer around and make mastery buff divine storm. During such an AoE heavy time you could actually be super liberal with Judgment and your game play changes dramatically. @ruiizu I think you brought up this point at times.

2nd point: I thought that to, thought to bring it up. In this event this you could keep it as it is IF mastery were to buff Divine Storm as well. But if the former is a bad idea turning FV into a DS proc would be VERY fun.

3rd: Oh its horrible, i dont have the stuff to make a video but ill give you the run down.
-Templar's Verdict: Upon using this a second ashbringer appears mid air and slices the target then vanishes.
-Divine Storm: As the storm happens a few Ashbringers are points up swirling.
--Divine Tempest: They move with the swirl.

I also want to say Flash of Light is a god send this time around, its not BAD at all at 110. It heals CHUNKS. Very noticeably as well.

1) There is a difference between minimal benefit and zero. Even under the current scheme (without Greater Judgment), it provides some benefit - after all, Divine Storm is effected by the debuff on at least a single target. With Greater Judgment, it can effect up to 3 (or was it 4?) enemies. If nothing else, under your scheme, Divine Storm should still be affected by the debuff on a single enemy. For your version of Greater Judgment, have it deal damage to all enemies but only debuff the primary target.

3) Ahh, now that you mention it, I did see it once then. (It was the PvP Equality video that was linked here.) It seemed so nondescript I thought it was just a bug.

4) Well, Flash of Light should heal for chunks. It must be hard cast and there are no supplemental boosts to it (like Supplication).

As an aside - I've wondered if our utility should be balanced around mana a bit differently. What if our utility spells had no (or much lower) cooldowns, but larger mana costs, with our melee attacks (could be auto, HP builders, HP spenders, or a combination) giving us mana back. In that way, if we needed to Freedom several times in a row - but then we'd need time to build our mana back. Likewise, they could do something like give us an instant heal (Blaze of Light) that healed for the same as FoL, but cost far more mana. In that case, your utility was healing.

Think of it as Runic Power that could be spent on utility rather than DPS.

1. Probably not, because then its damage per Holy Power would be better than TV, which could be awkward.
2. The life steal part is 800% AP, so makes sense that the damage is the same. Check Wowhead.
3. I don't think it does, but it would be nice if it did. Same for Echo.
4. I think the point with JV is that it's an alternative spender - ie in some situations you want to use it instead of TV (eg DP procs, to heal, maybe to build up Sanctified Wrath stacks at the start). It being a replacement for TV in all situations... probably best to avoid that. Ret might heal more than Fury then, and we can't have that :P .

1) Hmm, then perhaps have its healing boosted against stun immune mobs? Just doesn't feel good to have a utility spell that is weakest when you'd need it most (in PvE against bosses).
2) Thanks.
3) Thanks.
4) Yeah, that's what I was thinking. It would also considerably slow down the rotation as you could only ever get a single spender to fit inside a Judgment window (without Wake of Ashes, anyways).

[Ulthane]

@Alindra well the things going with Judgment is we Lloyd know the clash is bad. To elaborate I was trying to say if they keep this model then DS should be buffed and not affected by Judgment but buffed by mastery. What i will do however when home on the feedback forum is go literally through every concept to make it better not just this one and see what the community thinks. We gonna have words on judgement.

- - - Updated - - -

I guess what I mean to say is in regard to Judgement it will be consolidatated feedback

[Alindra]

We gonna have words on judgement.

Yeah... I'm still really curious what Blizzard's thought process was when it came to decision to give us Colossus Smash 2.0. That decision alone seems to be the cause of a lot of our collective grief. Worse, they've been very quiet about it after the fact.

[ruiizu]

Little point I felt worth mentioning: SoV is not off GCD in the way Divine Protection was. I found this really troubling leveling up, because I had to stop attacking to pop it.

Also I've been really thinking about how our abilities work. It almost feels like Judgment should be the skill that costs Holy Power, rather than Templar's Verdict. Wouldn't it make more sense if our damage window was based on Holy Power, rather than a cooldown? Judgment could still work on Templar's Verdict, but in this case TV would just become an ability we have that does junk damage outside of Judgment. The other abilities wouldn't need to change, as there would be no more conflict because when Holy Power is full, you drop a Judgment and then start TV-ing.

Only issue I have with said design is the total loss of our only ranged attack (but we don't want to use it from range presently anyway, except when you have the PvP 30 second duration talent). But it's just as well: they could just increase the range of Blade of Justice/Wrath. Probably it creates some conflict with Execution Sentence, but that's not hard to address.

At present I'm just really miffed about how horrible running around feels. It reminds me of back in TBC where Hammer of Wrath was basically useless and Judgment still did junk damage, so your only real option was Crusader Strike and auto-attack for the most part. Same as Classic, minus Crusader Strike. The more I play it, the more I'm drifting away to Warrior.

[Ulthane]

@ruiizu I noticed that to.. that is straight bs.
@Alindra like we have so many ways to fix it even if the design remained the same. No reason not to post all the ideas to fix it. I want Judgement to have weight like it does but not like this <_<

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Blizzard has been mostly silent, not super active. I wonder what's going on.

[Ulthane]

Also ruiizu that is a concept I'll post up. That would probably make much more sense.

Example: Judgment costs Holy power, puts a debuff or stacks on target like the unholy dk debuff. TV burst consumes them.

- - - Updated - - -
@ruiizu that idea might really work out amazingly well.

- - - Updated - - -

Honestly they could merge the Unholy DK and Arms Warrior debuff into something really cool for st.

[Temna]

Blizzard has been mostly silent, not super active. I wonder what's going on.

My guess is parsing the sheer volume of feedback and data so far. With alpha it was a much smaller sample size, now with the floodgates opened the amount of incoming data must be quite a thing.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

My guess is parsing the sheer volume of feedback and data so far. With alpha it was a much smaller sample size, now with the floodgates opened the amount of incoming data must be quite a thing.

As my Raid leader says.


ALL THE DATAZ

[Temna]

As my Raid leader says.


ALL THE DATAZ

Dataz is good, but more importantly its how the dataz will be viewed by the devs thats the important bit. All we lot can do is keep giving the data and feedback and hope that it is acted upon.

[Ulthane]

Dataz is good, but more importantly its how the dataz will be viewed by the devs thats the important bit. All we lot can do is keep giving the data and feedback and hope that it is acted upon.

This exactly. Which is why I posted a rough draft here for the final tonight. The final draft going to compile literally everything thus far from the community on top of my own opinions. So more data in that flood gate. X...x if I wasn't at work I'd be drinking coffee and eating chilli dogs and typing a storm. Evil mobile lol

[ruiizu]

Also ruiizu that is a concept I'll post up. That would probably make much more sense.

Example: Judgment costs Holy power, puts a debuff or stacks on target like the unholy dk debuff. TV burst consumes them.

- - - Updated - - -
@ruiizu that idea might really work out amazingly well.

- - - Updated - - -

Honestly they could merge the Unholy DK and Arms Warrior debuff into something really cool for st.

It's really just me trying to simplify the conflict. I'm playing as Fury on beta atm, and the way it's setup, you have 2 ways to activate your strong moves. One is luck (you get a crit), the other is through resource pooling (Rampage activates Enrage); both give access to your special move, Raging Blow.

As Ret, Judgment is just a CD. But to me it feels weird being a CD since you wouldn't want to use Judgment unless you have Holy Power anyway. Even if Judgment had no CD, you wouldn't spam it; it doesn't generate Holy Power and you don't want to use it unless you've got your Holy Power ready.

That's why I thought it makes more sense to have a weak attack that's super powerful during Judgment. I don't believe in double gating, which is what we have now: Templar's Verdict only works with Holy Power, but its real damage is gated by Judgment CD, so it effectively has a double cooldown (HP + Judge).

Divine Storm, imo, can just be entirely separate. Also if Judgment is a Holy Power spender and so is Divine Storm, the mastery can just work on both (increases the damage of your Holy Power spenders and your Judgment causes your Templar's Verdict/Justicar's Vengeance to do x% more damage).

The way I'd handle Justicar's Vengeance with that model would be to simply remove the cost but add a short CD (it could even be 6 seconds, just enough so you can't fit 2 into Judgment window). Divine Purpose would still be good if Judgment was also our hardest hitting skill barring Templar's Verdict during buff, because you'd just do:

Judgment (Divine Purpose procs)
Templar's Verdict till debuff wears
Judgment
repeat

I think people are reading too much into "the rotation needs more skill to it." When you start adding talents like Execution Sentence, Consecration, and you've got a bunch of different things happening, you don't need the rotation to be like programming a VCR's clock. What you need is a smooth system that occasionally has breakups that you need to react to (for instance using Divine Storm when there's multiple targets instead of Judgment).

Keep in mind with this system you've got 2 basic AE skills: Divine Storm and Wake of Ashes. Now part of me thinks that Divine Storm should make Blade of Justice cleave, but that does create problems with Divine Hammer. But I'm sure there are other solutions. Anyway, I'm working on my Warrior now because I'm not that happy with Ret, so I'm looking at other things.

PS: DOOM4 looks awesome.

[Sandraudiga]

** Assume Colossus Smash & Mastery: Colossal Might grant 24% increased damage, and the target has 30% armour. 100% * 1.24 * 0.7 = 86.8%... you'd need Colossus Smash to increase your damage to the target by 43% to get back up to 100% damage (technically 100.1%). This wouldn't apply to the Warbreaker damage (ie only Bladestorm), but it's important to bear in mind.

Seen a few videos with warriors hitting mid 90%ish mastery level. Some videos out now showing some of the damage blade storm is doing on the beta. It's rather insane.

[Kithelle]

Also ruiizu that is a concept I'll post up. That would probably make much more sense.

Example: Judgment costs Holy power, puts a debuff or stacks on target like the unholy dk debuff. TV burst consumes them.

- - - Updated - - -
@ruiizu that idea might really work out amazingly well.

- - - Updated - - -

Honestly they could merge the Unholy DK and Arms Warrior debuff into something really cool for st.

Trouble is, the way they're trying to set every spec apart, I don't know if they would take to well to us borrowing a mechanic from another spec...

[ruiizu]

Seen a few videos with warriors hitting mid 90%ish mastery level. Some videos out now showing some of the damage blade storm is doing on the beta. It's rather insane.

You should see what happens when you're Enraged, pop Battle Cry and then Bladestorm. Guaranteed 5 seconds of Bladestorm crits, with +60-100% damage. Mitigated by armor though. But Fury also has another AE CD from their swords lol.

- - - Updated - - -

Trouble is, the way they're trying to set every spec apart, I don't know if they would take to well to us borrowing a mechanic from another spec...

You mean like how they borrowed Colossus Smash for Judgment?

[Ulthane]

@ruiizu Me and you are on the same page. So example.

Judgment: Costs X Holy power. Deals massive Holy damage to the target and places 2 - 3 stacks of Judgment on them increasing the damage done of Templar's Verdict on them by x%.

Templar's Verdict: Deals 500% weapon damage as holy. Can only be used on targets with Judgment and consumes 1 stack of Judgment. No Holy power cost no cd.

So let's say that was the basic right? So if they wanted a holy power gate on Judgment they could remove the cd of Judgment.

So Judgment could become 5 Holy power but hit super hard, the debuff could stack up to 10 so you could have a massive potential stacked burst if you wanted.

You could see the Final Verdict talent working like this
-TV has a chance to not consume the debuff OR TV now consumes all debuffs and deals tons more damage per stack consumed.

Thoughts to refine this because this idea is one of many going into the big thing. This takes the concept of CSmash but adds in the Unholy mechanic slightly but keeps it as testament to what we have mow.

Divine Storm would cost 3 holy power but not affected by Judge and deal 500% weapon as holy.

Mastery would affect Judge, it's debuff and maybe Divine Storm.

ST and AoE rotation become significantly different and Judgment becomes more meaningful.

- - - Updated - - -

Trouble is, the way they're trying to set every spec apart, I don't know if they would take to well to us borrowing a mechanic from another spec...

Read above, not really.

- - - Updated - - -

Also Wake of Ashes would make this very viable

- - - Updated - - -

With SW it's like this
-Wake
-Judge (5 stacks)
-Build
-Judge (10 stacks)
-Build
-Judge (15 stacks)
-You have about 6 - 10 stacks on enemy
-Dump 6 - 10 TVs

- - - Updated - - -

Also naturally buffs Divine Purpose with free Judgments.

- - - Updated - - -

Honestly would enjoy this style imo.

[Kithelle]

You should see what happens when you're Enraged, pop Battle Cry and then Bladestorm. Guaranteed 5 seconds of Bladestorm crits, with +60-100% damage. Mitigated by armor though. But Fury also has another AE CD from their swords lol.

- - - Updated - - -



You mean like how they borrowed Colossus Smash for Judgment?

Cept it isn't Colossus Smash? "shrugs"

If you mean it's like colossus smash because it's a attack and it boosts the damage of another attack...than that means Windwalker's new mastery is one big colossus smash...Bolderfist...it improves damage so that is just another colossus smash clone...enrage increases damage of abilities...so it must be a colossus smash clone too! So everything that boosts damage of other things are just all colossus smash clones I guess?

[Aeluron Lightsong]

It's a damage window where all your other attacks do more damage for a few seconds. That's how Colossus Smash works.

Judgement Smash as we call it: Increases the damage taken by your Holy Power consumers. In this case it's TV/JV.

What you describe Boulderfist is just says "Improves damage" Which doesn't describe Colossus Smash.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Cept it isn't Colossus Smash? "shrugs"

If you mean it's like colossus smash because it's a attack and it boosts the damage of another attack...than that means Windwalker's new mastery is one big colossus smash...Bolderfist...it improves damage so that is just another colossus smash clone...enrage increases damage of abilities...so it must be a colossus smash clone too! So everything that boosts damage of other things are just all colossus smash clones I guess?

dont go full retard man.