Venezuela: how the socialist paradise turned into debt and hyperinflation hell

[Deleted]

There's no such thing as a "free market society".

It's called much much more competition. It can be created ethically.

This is anathema to a centralized government ("of the people") that seeks to control the means of production.

We obviously don't see eye to eye on this, but at least you aren't tyrannical. Many people are.

[Cthulhu 2020]

don't get it twisted endus, you know damn well, as everyone else her eon this forum knows, that you don't apply the rules equally, and REALLY stretch interpretations to infract people when you disagree with their point of view. that's why over 1/3 of the infractions you have hit me with have been overturned.

Seen plenty of people disagree with endus and do so in a perfectly civil manner. Then there's those who disagree and begin flinging ad hominems as if they're some kind of valid argument tactic then cry when they get infracted. Hell you're doing it RIGHT NOW, the ad hominem and the crying.

If you have a point you want to make, make it, and do so in a civil manner.

But we know that's hard for you, for the number of times you tell me I'm a unemployed basement dweller based solely on my post count, despite you posting here just as much as I do - solely as a way to discredit my argument because you have nothing better.

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How come even the Heritage Foundation doesn't list the US in the top 10 of economic freedoms?

http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking

11th behind the UK at 10 and Canada at 6, both decidedly market socialist nations. That's just weird.

20th according to the CATO/IEA, behind Chile and Mauritius.

Doesn't make a lot of sense if it's "much more free..."

We all know Heritage and CATO are far left liberal rags, such bias.

[PC2]

But then they will claim that in order to create a perfect socialist society, all forms of capitalism have to be destroyed everywhere.

This is sort of true, a sub-optimal system can't survive for very long in an environment with more productive competitors.

[araine]

Interesting, as I've posted the definition of socialism twice in this discussion and all you socialists are desperately trying to say that it is something it isn't. I get it, you want a bigger piece of the pie than you think you will be able to produce on your own but don't want to feel bad about it. Sorry to tell you, you should feel bad about it. Now get to work.

like is said you have no idea on what socialism is. but it is typical of right wingers to be uninformed about the real world

[Theinquisition]

Seen plenty of people disagree with endus and do so in a perfectly civil manner. Then there's those who disagree and begin flinging ad hominems as if they're some kind of valid argument tactic then cry when they get infracted. Hell you're doing it RIGHT NOW, the ad hominem and the crying.

If you have a point you want to make, make it, and do so in a civil manner.

But we know that's hard for you, for the number of times you tell me I'm a unemployed basement dweller based solely on my post count, despite you posting here just as much as I do - solely as a way to discredit my argument because you have nothing better.

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We all know Heritage and CATO are far left liberal rags, such bias.

I'm not insulting the guy, im expressing my displeasure at the bias manner in which he moderates. Over 1/3 of my infractions made by endus have been overturned, and theres a reason for that.

He's a bias moderator.

difference between mine and your posts, mine tend to be during a certain time of the day, you post day and night 24/7, so unless you really have a sad sad life with nothing else to do......well yeah.


Infracted. Don't discuss moderation in public, you have been warned for this enough times.

[ArguesWithStrangers]

All your evidence points to how poor authoritarianism is, as a political construct, not socialism, as an economic one.

And I've explained at length, that socialism and authoritarianism have historically been joined at the hip. You've responded with an argument which can essentially be summed up as "but if everyone would just share more it wouldn't have to be that way." This is incredibly wishful thinking and flies in the face of what we know about human nature. It is not by accident that socialist revolutions always end up in authoritarian states. That is because the very idea of a centrally planned economy lends itself to an authoritarian power structure. The wealth is not going to artificially re-distribute itself.

As I stated before, Capitalism has succeeded because it seeks the maximum benefit that can be achieved by the worst of our nature. Socialism fails because it either proposes that a powerful elite can be trusted to re-distribute wealth for the common good, or that the majority of people can be convinced to do it of their own volition. This has yet to be proven true.

Even in the socialist paradises that all of you claim the tiny Scandinavian countries represent, all it took was a large influx if culturally dissimilar migrants to send the whole "let's get along and work together" ethic into a tailspin. With a new out-group on the scene wanting more of the pie while contributing less, our lovely tolerant Nordic friends are getting a lot less lovely and tolerant. Just goes to show you, every one can get along and contribute, until they don't get along, or contribute.

[Endus]

It's called much much more competition. It can be created ethically.

The amount of competition has basically nothing to do with whether a market is free or not. In many cases, government control of a market is what allows for competition; busting monopolies and so forth.

[Pangean]

I'm not insulting the guy, im expressing my displeasure at the bias manner in which he moderates. Over 1/3 of my infractions made by endus have been overturned, and theres a reason for that.

He's a bias moderator.

difference between mine and your posts, mine tend to be during a certain time of the day, you post day and night 24/7, so unless you really have a sad sad life with nothing else to do......well yeah.

Are you really attacking someone because of how many posts they have or when they post? Really? /facepalm

[ArguesWithStrangers]

I think nationalizing industries and shit is a far cry away from "Hey let's have healthcare where 45k people a year don't die from not having it maybe?"

As soon as you start talking about it as an investment and not a basic human right we can talk. It is not illegitimate for the government to provide goods and services that would be deemed unprofitable for a private enterprise. Whether or not the government does so however should be a matter of costs and benefits, not sentiments. I need a lot more than "it would be really nice thing to have" to convince me that we should embark on such a large expenditure.

[Deleted]

Socialism works for a few countries and does not work for a few countries, and i don't think anyone ever called Venezuela a ''socialist paradise''.

[Endus]

And I've explained at length, that socialism and authoritarianism have historically been joined at the hip.

Well, that's just flat-out incorrect. That's why we take issue with it; it's an untrue statement.

There are plenty of democratically socialist countries out there. Canada, the Scandinavian states, etc. They're generally less authoritarian than the USA is, recently speaking at least.

[Cthulhu 2020]

I'm not insulting the guy, im expressing my displeasure at the bias manner in which he moderates. Over 1/3 of my infractions made by endus have been overturned, and theres a reason for that.

He's a bias moderator.

difference between mine and your posts, mine tend to be during a certain time of the day, you post day and night 24/7, so unless you really have a sad sad life with nothing else to do......well yeah.

Oh you seem to have forgotten about my flexible schedule, and seem to keep up with my posting habits just enough to see that I can post at just about any time... but often go 12+ hours without posting at all, sometimes in the morning, sometimes in the afternoon, and even occasionally evenings. I've also been on medical leave for the last week because of a surgery. Your detective skills need some serious work, son.

About 1/3 of my infractions have come from Endus as well. Clearly he hates me too. Such bias!

[Deleted]

The amount of competition has basically nothing to do with whether a market is free or not.

Monopolies solidified by the government aren't a free market.

I can see that you aren't going to change your mind.

Let me put it this way: what if a significant majority of people never want a socialist government?

Are you going to respect their wishes?

[ArguesWithStrangers]

like is said you have no idea on what socialism is. but it is typical of right wingers to be uninformed about the real world

Is it your standard debate tactic to attack the intelligence and education of your opponents while ignoring their arguments, or are you making a special case for this discussion?

If you're ready to start supporting your claims with logic and evidence, address the stated points of your opponents and generally contribute something of value, feel free to do so. If however you are going to simply continue hurling insults, restating your original claims, and acting like a petulant child, go sit at the kiddie table while adults are talking.

[PC2]

But it also should be a basic human right to not die of preventable illnesses in a first world country where people pay taxes.

Have you heard of the ACA?

What preventable illness kills people in the US but is always prevented in Europe?

[nextormento]

Every practical application of any ideology makes certain compromises, at the least.
Socialism is economics, not politics.

One key compromise of the ideology being ascribing the economy to some form of politics and governance.
Much as I despise the inept argument that puts socialism to blame for what really is circumstantial implementations, at some point we need to acknowledge that the XIX and XX centuries happened.
Socialism was co-opted. Social democracy has nothing to do with social ownership. Neither does Bolivarianism. Or the majority of the communist manifest, for that matter (which, has only but a few lines about economy).
Socislism, today, is an umbrella term. One that includes social systems and political theories. Trying to abstract it entirely to the real of economics is denying current reality.

There are plenty of democratically socialist countries out there. Canada, the Scandinavian states, etc. They're generally less authoritarian than the USA is, recently speaking at least.

Those are social democracies cemented on private ownership of the means of production. Mixed economies; not socialism by any of the defining characteristics you're providing.

[Pangean]

Oh you seem to have forgotten about my flexible schedule, and seem to keep up with my posting habits just enough to see that I can post at just about any time... but often go 12+ hours without posting at all, sometimes in the morning, sometimes in the afternoon, and even occasionally evenings. I've also been on medical leave for the last week because of a surgery. Your detective skills need some serious work, son.

About 1/3 of my infractions have come from Endus as well. Clearly he hates me too. Such bias!

You don't need to explain yourself from that sort of childishness.

[Deleted]

There is a different between wanting a socialist government and wanting certain socialist policies instituted by the government, which the American people overwhelmingly want.

Because we want more government jobs that only hire women and "minorities".

You've lost control of the narrative.

Why don't all those people who want socialist policies, create a socialist state away from those who don't want them? No seriously, I won't stop you. Tons of people are already promising to move to Canada if Trump wins. Sounds great to me.

[PC2]

The ACA is just an insurance mandate with no public option. It does very little towards the goal of universal healthcare.

And I'm talking about people dying just because of a lack of BASIC healthcare... not any specific illness.

No it also gives 100% free medical service to the poorest citizens.

[PC2]

I want a meritocracy in government.

Would you support government policy that makes demographic information hidden from hiring managers?