Upcoming talent change gutting

[Fincayra]

Well that's lame. SO basically, if you take AOE talents for one boss and the next boss need single talents, and no one has this tome, you can either do the fight sub optimally or hearth to a safe zone and run back. This is extremely counterproductive.

but it doesn't cost gold, and that's what the players want.

[craftyard]

Am I the only one around here who is 100% neutral about this decision? I've changed my talents perhaps once throughout this entire expansion. That being said, I don't raid outside LFR.

However, expansions are the time when large changes like this can come through. Sometimes you just need to adapt to a new system.

In Legion, while picking a talent you'll have to seriously consider the strengths and weaknesses a talent has over the others you can choose, instead of now where you can apparently switch them out after every boss fight for optimization's sake.

[SirCowdog]

Am I the only one around here who is 100% neutral about this decision? I've changed my talents perhaps once throughout this entire expansion. That being said, I don't raid outside LFR.

However, expansions are the time when large changes like this can come through. Sometimes you just need to adapt to a new system.

In Legion, while picking a talent you'll have to seriously consider the strengths and weaknesses a talent has over the others you can choose, instead of now where you can apparently switch them out after every boss fight for optimization's sake.

The problem with it is that it's not changing the decision making process. All it's doing is adding unnecessary tedium and time-wasting to it.

[Grimreaper]

If you flask and food for questing, you are very much in the minority. I mean, why flask when you are already one-shotting everything?

What? My main is ilvl 740, and i'm not 1shotting any lvl 100 mobs. Neither am any of my alts when i lvl them up from 90, even with ilvl 705 weapons from lvl 91.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

What? My main is ilvl 740, and i'm not 1shotting any lvl 100 mobs. Neither am any of my alts when i lvl them up from 90, even with ilvl 705 weapons from lvl 91.

I'm one-shotting or two-shotting mobs in Tanaan at ilvl 718-727. I mean, at this point it's just quick dailies for the 600 oil and occasional mucking about while waiting in queue, but the Throne is only area that might be worth flasking.

[Deleted]

Honestly I'm just never going to change my talents unless I absolutely have to. I'll find the "good enough" talent lay out and stick with it.

The Legion talent system is designed from the ground up to ensure that in a raid or Mythic dungeon there is no "good enough" talent lay out. They deliberately put the AOE/single target/cleave talents on the same lines to ensure they are mutually exclusive.

Which is why this change is so dumb.

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Except we've all seen video of players clearing instances without stopping to swap anything so apparently you don't "...have to swap regularly no-matter what content you are doing and how casual/hardcore you are."

You mean in alpha/beta instances where some classes are wildly overpowered, and where up until now talent swapping has been entirely free - in order to , you know, let people test them because if you made that inconvenient it would invalidate the whole point of having a alpha/beta test game?

Videos where people tend to edit out the bit where they go through talent screens swapping things about?

Lots of the videos I have watched include talent swapping. I repeat, the Legion talent system is very obviously designed not just with swapping in mind, it actually very strongly encourages it.

[Fkiolaris]

Except we've all seen video of players clearing instances without stopping to swap anything so apparently you don't "...have to swap regularly no-matter what content you are doing and how casual/hardcore you are."

Except damage right now is so out of whack that you can one-shot everything, which is the reason talents practically don't matter right now in beta. So before you comment on these things, make sure you get all your facts right.

[Deleted]

I would expect the tomes to start off expensive and get cheaper once more players are selling them. Even at the beginning, however, they will not be too expensive relative to the current gold rush economy. Not sure how many non-hardcore players there are doing high-end progression, but I don't expect the cost to be a game-breaker for anyone.

You do realise that it will make the first month or two an absolute hell of people camping the spots for the herbs, yes? And that the mats and the tomes will be extortionately overpriced until raid groups have the instances on farm, yes? Think flasks, pots and food: only worse.

The most likely response for anything other than high-end realm-first style guilds will be to make having at least one and likely two warlocks pretty much mandatory, with raid sessions including an excessively annoying and unfun session of mass hearthings and summonings as players go through the chore of switching talents.

[Aggrophobic]

I would expect the tomes to start off expensive and get cheaper once more players are selling them. Even at the beginning, however, they will not be too expensive relative to the current gold rush economy. Not sure how many non-hardcore players there are doing high-end progression, but I don't expect the cost to be a game-breaker for anyone.

Yeah, they really will be. Take quite a bit of time to make these and you're not making gold the way you did back in WoD.
Doing a few mythic+ dungeon and you can count on having to spend 10k+ without even a single retry.

The average player won't raid, do dungeons and in some cases even world quests. Simple as that.

[Deleted]

Am I the only one around here who is 100% neutral about this decision? I've changed my talents perhaps once throughout this entire expansion. That being said, I don't raid outside LFR.

However, expansions are the time when large changes like this can come through. Sometimes you just need to adapt to a new system.

In Legion, while picking a talent you'll have to seriously consider the strengths and weaknesses a talent has over the others you can choose, instead of now where you can apparently switch them out after every boss fight for optimization's sake.

That's because you can do whatever you like in LFR because it doesn't mean squat, half the players can /afk lol

Yes, Legion talents are much more important, and you have to carefully consider your choices. However, what represents a very good or very bad choice will change from one boss to the next because the talents are designed so that what is pretty much mandatory for one fight is worse than useless for the next one

I'll give you an example: afflock's Sow the Seeds. Without that, affliction is going to be godawful at AOE. So you will have to take it for AOE. But it is utterly useless, it serves no purpose whatsoever outside of AOE. Worse, it is mutually exclusive with it's companion talents, which are useful for everything except AOE, where there are worse that useless.

And so on. There are usually at least three choices like that in class talent trees. The whole system is designed around "swap talents or suck". There is no "all round good performer"

This is all just a crappy way to implement a time and gold sink, to keep you logged in and playing those extra hours grinding the mats and/or the gold to pay someone else for them, redoing content that players otherwise wouldn;t touch with a bargepole because running around a map clicking on herb icons is about as fun as watching paint dry. I also suspect that a secondary intention is to slow down raid progression because at best you'll be farting around dropping expensive tomes and waiting for the talent swap session...or at worst wasting time hearthing/summoning repeatedly (with hearthing on timers, of course). Either that or performing sub-optimally, which makes the encounters harder to clear.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

The average player won't raid, do dungeons and in some cases even world quests. Simple as that.

lol
ok
/10

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Well color me "above average" then. Because I intend to keep doing all those things. Guess I'll have all the rares, all the artifact power to myself... Soon I'll be the most powerful hero on Azeroth!!!!

[Deleted]

This is going to be so dumb for raiding they do realize that if they make getting those tomes even slightly hard to obtain that any raider is just going to hearthstone to Dalaran switch talents and take a summon back?

You make them as a scribe.

[Aggrophobic]

lol
ok
/10

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Well color me "above average" then. Because I intend to keep doing all those things. Guess I'll have all the rares, all the artifact power to myself... Soon I'll be the most powerful hero on Azeroth!!!!

Thats great and all. Myself, I don't find spending 4-5 hours every day just grinding money all that fun.
I'd rather do the actual content when I have time to play.

This change won't affect my raiding as my guild will no doubt pay for respec although it will of course be quite annoying as you have to have a small break between bosses and trash packs but whatever.

No way that I'll even touch dungeons and world quests if I can't use the optimal specs for it though and any content that has to do with random players will be even more unpleasant than it is already.

It's still is mind-boggling that anyone at Blizzard thought this was a good idea. It's like they don't even play their own game.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Thats great and all. Myself, I don't find spending 4-5 hours every day just grinding money all that fun.
I'd rather do the actual content when I have time to play.

This change won't affect my raiding as my guild will no doubt pay for respec although it will of course be quite annoying as you have to have a small break between bosses and trash packs but whatever.

No way that I'll even touch dungeons and world quests if I can't use the optimal specs for it though and any content that has to do with random players will be even more unpleasant than it is already.

It's still is mind-boggling that anyone at Blizzard thought this was a good idea. It's like they don't even play their own game.

Did you even notice the part where you get to re-spec for free when queuing for dungeons? And how will you maintain/deserve a spot on a raid team if you aren't developing your artifact power between raids?

[Aggrophobic]

Did you even notice the part where you get to re-spec for free when queuing for dungeons? And how will you maintain/deserve a spot on a raid team if you aren't developing your artifact power between raids?

Yeah, I get to respec for free if I'm in town while queuing. Did you miss the part where it's mandatory to respec befor bosses and pack in dungeons or you won't even clear the first trash packs?

Thankfully there are ways of leveling your artifact in a day or so if you know where to farm. Only need one spec for AOE farming random mobs.
Would the world quests and dungeons be more fun? Probably, but not if you're forced to stick with a suboptimal spec while doing them.

[Delimit]

The video I'm thinking of was the "Dungeon Race" they did a while back. Two groups racing to finish a couple of dungeons. They didn't pause for anything but still cleared the instances. I'm not saying we won't swap specs; just saying it won't be absolutely necessary for anything short of high-end progression.
.

Except you have no idea if anyone was changing talents, because it was able to be done on the fly. They were absolutely swapping talents.

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Did you even notice the part where you get to re-spec for free when queuing for dungeons? And how will you maintain/deserve a spot on a raid team if you aren't developing your artifact power between raids?

You still can't change talents, which is the entire point. If you're out doing world quests as a tank with DPS focused talents and your queue pops, you're SOL when you get into the dungeon. There are talents that are completely broken and unable to be used against bosses in dungeons, that you would use while out world questing.

[Avikur]

So they have made it so we actually have choices with talents and then put this huge dumb restriction in place?!! on the beta I want to try various talents out, it's so annoying having to keep finding a rested place to change them. I really hope they re-think this, why put a restriction in place at all? why should changing specs or talents cost anything?

[Wow]

This may last all beta but I think when the pre patch hits the outcry will be too large for them to ignore. Because that time above the rest people will want to being testing out new talents in dungeons and raids etc and there will be no tome (legion mats) so it will be at its worst.

I think once the whole player base seeing how bad this change is they won't be able to keep it in place. This won't be like flying where you can milk it out for the whole exp this is something that affects you everywhere in anything you do at all.

[Deleted]

There is, and its calculated by/called math

Players in casual/social guilds and in PuGs generally don't care about that, and Blizzard deliberately tune the content so that it doesn't require an optimal talent build. Only mythic/cutting edge content needs min/max'ing.

[Deleted]

I've been in four "non cutting edge" guilds and everyone cared about maximising their performance, basically if you don't then you're slacking and disrespecting your fellow team members

Not changing talents will be like not bothering to use pots/flasks/food

And I would say, generally speaking until you overgear things, in a casual guild then maybe normal and certainly heroic modes are as challenging to casual players as mythic modes are to hardcore top players, so you still need to maximise your performance

Until they overgear it, a casual guild won't clear heroic raids if their players do not talent switch and optimise for each boss. The losses are just too much, particularly as they will apply to at least all the DPS, whereas it's tolerable to have one or two without flasks/pots (though my guild would kick persistent slackers, like I said, it disrespects your team mates)