Why is exclusivity bad for WoW (and other MMOs)?

[Lord Pebbleton]

TIME IS NOT AN ISSUE IN THIS GAME.

It is, but a lot of people use it as an excuse to never improve themselves.

[Sanct]

Blizzard gave us option to see content for free as solo players only really stupid peron would not pick such efficient way to see content over hours and houts of progressin for useless item rewards, mounts and titles what these days means absolutly nothing to anyone.

Satisfaction isn't universally derived from the same experiences. I find little satisfaction in doing LFR. If your primary goal is simply to see the content, then by all means use LFR as your primary tool. Some of us enjoy a challenge, regardless of easier alternatives.

[Darththeo]

Yes. That's what videogames are.
You paying for content does not entitle you to it. I don't understand how people can think this. It's not the same as a book or movie, that comparison just doesn't apply.

It is the only form of entertainment that you accept the behavior from. It could easily be done with a book or televsion or any other form of entertainment that exist.

Look, do you accept on disc DLC such as Darth Vader and Yoda in Soul Calibur IV or Day One DLC that is huge to the plot of the game like the Mass Effect 3 DLC? If so, fine, I have no problem with your stance. But, if you have problems with on disc dlc and/or day one dlc then you are a hypocrite.

[Darththeo]

thats simply a dumb compression. A Movie or Book are not interactive, PLUS a MMO is played with other humans. Its like not comprable at all.


Also if you insist on this dumb analogy: The vast majority of books and Movies require from me the mental capicity to not only read/watch (press buttons) but also the skill level to understand things, put them in context, having knowledge outside etc. . If somebody is too dumb to get the meaning Sonnet 74 then he does not get all the content out of the lyric, like in wow and endgame when somebody is too bad

And thank you for proving my point. In is the only form you accept it from because you view it as different. You don't accept it from a movie that say would require you answer trivia question correct to keep watching it. You don't accept it elsewhere but you accept it in games even though that never how games have actually been ... you just convinced yourself otherwise.

[Darththeo]

I only prove that stupidity of it, if you are too bad for the content you dont get it. if you dont know what a vertain word means in a book you can not read it, if you dont know what a metaphor is you can not interpret it.


If you are too bad in a game you can not play it.

Convince yourself first of all to not talk such ammount of nonsense

Yes, you prove the stupidity of your own stance, but can't see it. You are okay with such behavior in video games because that is how you convinced yourself games operate. My view isn't nonsensical just because you deluded yourself into thinking video games are special forms of entertainment.

[Darththeo]

I am also okay with this on other mediums i say it but you are to dumb to accept it because i dismantled your bullshit.

I don't think you understand the word dismantled. Just because you say "You wrong and your idea is stupid!" doesn't mean you dismantled anything. And now, you are backtracking ... seriously, this is sad that you think you have actually argued and took down anything I have said. Do you even understand how to dismantle an argument because you aren't even close.

Video games are the only form of media where it is acceptable. There are no other forms of active entertainment where you accept it. If you pay to play a carnival game, you get a different experience than anyone else who pays to play it ... you may have a different result, but not a different experience while playing the game. If you pay a fee to play in a league for a sport, you still have the same kind of experience.

Seriously, the evidence you are wrong is so insane, I can't see how you don't see it. If anything, you have shown why my view isn't wrong. And this kind of "exclusivity" only exists in the MMO market ... single player it doesn't apply at all ... even with games like Dark Souls, with enough time and practice I can beat the game and be just as successful as other people. MMOs time is a factor, you are limited on how long content stays current ... time isn't a factor in single player games.

So, not only does video game entertainment not have the criteria you think it does, it is only in the MMO market where it remotely even could apply. And in is only in the PvE side of it at that, no content at all is barred by any means for PvP in WoW.

[HuxNeva]

The 'subsidy' argument:
AFAIK Blizzard designs raids around the 'heroic' difficulty, and derives the other difficulties from that

Normal is mostly just a re-tune
Mythic is a re-tune + some extra/adapted abilities
LFR is a retune with disabled abilities, and specific loot sets

Yes, there are exceptions to the above, but it is largely accurate.

So the main development 'cost' is not in Mythic raiding, it is developing the initial encounter (Heroic/Normal). The more you deviate from that core the higher the extra costs, but they will be relative to the large initial investment.

Participation figures are (Data from SoO, using current terminology):
LFR: 70%
Normal:40%
Heroic: 25%
Mythic: 10%

It is safe to assume Heroic players will have taken part in Normal, and Mythic players will have taken part in Heroic. Taking out the overlap, I would guess that about 55% of the playerbase raids N/H/M.
The argument 'LFR sponsors raid development' should be laid to rest, as it just expanded content to an additional 15% of players. You might as well argue N/H/M players sponsor LFR. You might as well argue Human and Orcs sponsor Gnomes, Dwarfs, Tauren and Goblins.
Raiding outside LFR is not a 'niche' activity, it is a staple of the MMO game design with high participation numbers. The game was profitable long before LFR existed, and would still be without it.

I'm not arguing against LFR. As I have stated before I do find the current implementation horrendous, but that design is a direct result of Blizzard's failure in the nurturing the social environment, or as one could say Blizzards relentless active destruction of the potential for a social environment. It is impossible to provide a meaningful challenge to a casual group that has to take into account there will be significant portions of AFK'ers and a few active griefers in the run.

I'm just staying stop the 'LFR pays for raids', as that argument is false.

[glowpipe]

Because at the end of the day. The game is run by the players paying the bills. When people won't get further due to stuff taking too long or is too hard. They stop playing and then stop paying. Game suffers because of this and you the super special snowflake ontop will also suffer. With less content and worse quality. Money is all that matters for blizzard. They don't care if you are happy aslong as they get your 10 bucks a month.

[mysticx]

I'm not arguing against LFR. As I have stated before I do find the current implementation horrendous, but that design is a direct result of Blizzard's failure in the nurturing the social environment, or as one could say Blizzards relentless active destruction of the potential for a social environment. It is impossible to provide a meaningful challenge to a casual group that has to take into account there will be significant portions of AFK'ers and a few active griefers in the run.

I'm just staying stop the 'LFR pays for raids', as that argument is false.

You do realize that the vast majority of the effort in making the average raid goes into art assets (Boss models and the areas you fight in) rather than tuning the encounters, right?

Let's assume that (Since the visuals are the same for all difficulties), the cost for said art assets is spread across all difficulties as well, so all in all LfR does pay for your raids, or would you like a nice 1-room tier 9 raid again? You know, the amount of art effort that the small raiding minority should get without the LfR-crowd chipping in on the expenses...

[Jewsco]

[QUOTE=Sinndor;40454597]Nope most of us what start doing LFR only it is becouse it is more efficient and path least resistence. Blizz gave me way to see content in faceroll difficulty so i start doing that intead of heroic/mythic raiding. Back in the days i was forced to do top end raiding in order to see content so i did that. Now i have option to just press button see content and leave game until new patch is released.

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And then you are back to maybe 15% of the player base raiding. I don't understand how you anti-lfr people don't see this? Raiding was always a niche thing lfr helps raiding have the development time it gets. They made it so no one has to do it who doesn't want to. Made the gear bad and look bad what the hell else do you want?
Why you can't see orginazed raiding was and never will be the thing a vast majority of the player wants to or will do is beyond me.

Truth be told if I want to point to something that hurt raiding more this expansion it is the fact normal and heroic are flex. With flex it isn't how it use to be and one had to keep showing up and doing well to keep a raid spot. Now people show up whenever due to it being flex. For my guild one day we have 20 plus the next we struggle to get 10 players. It is all due to flex. Hard to turn players away when they do show up due to the fact the raid gets easier with more players. They killed off 10 man raiding this expansion and that is the bigger deal than lfr. But the lfr to blame for all myth keeps going and going

[Dormie]

Because at the end of the day. The game is run by the players paying the bills. When people won't get further due to stuff taking too long or is too hard. They stop playing and then stop paying. Game suffers because of this and you the super special snowflake ontop will also suffer. With less content and worse quality. Money is all that matters for blizzard. They don't care if you are happy aslong as they get your 10 bucks a month.

If rather the casual carebears quit and suffer a little less content than suffer shit content. Smaller the playerbase gets the easier the Devs can design the game to the way it should be.

[Deleted]

[QUOTE=Jewsco;40459345]

Nope most of us what start doing LFR only it is becouse it is more efficient and path least resistence. Blizz gave me way to see content in faceroll difficulty so i start doing that intead of heroic/mythic raiding. Back in the days i was forced to do top end raiding in order to see content so i did that. Now i have option to just press button see content and leave game until new patch is released.

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And then you are back to maybe 15% of the player base raiding. I don't understand how you anti-lfr people don't see this? Raiding was always a niche thing lfr helps raiding have the development time it gets. They made it so no one has to do it who doesn't want to. Made the gear bad and look bad what the hell else do you want?
Why you can't see orginazed raiding was and never will be the thing a vast majority of the player wants to or will do is beyond me.

Truth be told if I want to point to something that hurt raiding more this expansion it is the fact normal and heroic are flex. With flex it isn't how it use to be and one had to keep showing up and doing well to keep a raid spot. Now people show up whenever due to it being flex. For my guild one day we have 20 plus the next we struggle to get 10 players. It is all due to flex. Hard to turn players away when they do show up due to the fact the raid gets easier with more players. They killed off 10 man raiding this expansion and that is the bigger deal than lfr. But the lfr to blame for all myth keeps going and going

Ther eis absolutly nothing wrong having only 15% of player base raiding. Absolutly nothing. Forcing raiding on those what doesnt want raid is complete **** Just look at WoD how amazingly it worked right? All we have are raids. Stop asuming that everyone wants to raid. And yes LFR is raiding. If there would not be LFR Blizzard would ahve to create lot of casual non raiding content but they know that most player will just skip it and jump straingh into LFR anyway so why bother.

[Deleted]

Paying road tax doesn't give you a Ferrari to drive around, hard work does.
Paying for WoW doesn't give access to the hardest content, hard work does.

Simple as that.

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To some people WoW is our primary hobby, some people go partying, some people fish, some people go rock climbing.
Do you think people who go fishing every weekend have empty lives as well? Who are you to judge what people enjoy and deem it good or bad?

Well said indeed, closes the thread. Both arguments

[mysticx]

Well said indeed, closes the thread. Both arguments

To go with the car-analogy you so eagerly quote: whether you have a Ferrari or not, you can still access all of the road, it's less spectacular if you're not in a Ferrari, but you still get to enjoy the sights, same with LfR and WoW raids.

Guess i re-opened the thread, oops! :P

[Jewsco]

[QUOTE=Sinndor;40459771]

Ther eis absolutly nothing wrong having only 15% of player base raiding. Absolutly nothing. Forcing raiding on those what doesnt want raid is complete **** Just look at WoD how amazingly it worked right? All we have are raids. Stop asuming that everyone wants to raid. And yes LFR is raiding. If there would not be LFR Blizzard would ahve to create lot of casual non raiding content but they know that most player will just skip it and jump straingh into LFR anyway so why bother.

You just can't leave lfr alone will you? Have you not stated that without lfr more would have incentive to raid and now here say 15% is good enough which is it?
Why do you continue to try to blame lfr? Lfr is not to blame for the disaster that wod is. Lack of content is. How many times do I have to point out to you last expansion had 5 open world places added after launch. Thunder island, Dino island, landing zone Karasang wilds, battle field barrens and timeless island. This expansion had 1 fucking 1 tanaan jungle and one could argue that even that was suppose to be launch. How can you clearly not see the utter lack of content? Are you this ignorant? But keep blaming lfr that surely is the problem not the lack of content at all.

[Aehl]

I'm just staying stop the 'LFR pays for raids', as that argument is false.

Um

Participation figures are (Data from SoO, using current terminology):

LFR: 70%
Heroic: 35%
Mythic 10%

Hate to say this but that there says Im right

Are you against any actual challenge in your WoW play? What do you enjoy about this game?

All kinds of things from pet battling to arch to crafting, to dungeons, to LFR to virtually every activity in the game sans organised raidng and pvp. Working on Loremaster right now. Got that achieve? Do every quest in every zone of the game?

Doing that right now.

Heh and Ive levelled what....12 alts so far? With more to come.

Or some days I just goof off and fish, fly, gather, craft..whatever takes my fancy. I dont raid and Im not on a raid team so Im pretty much able to do whatever the hell I feel like.

Now and then I literally take off and go sightseeing for the hell of it. Did you know that there are at least a dozen spots in Kalimdor alone where the devs left blank spaces? I also found what looks like an abandoned campiing area.

Do you just like looking at your character tab and seeing a bunch of epics that required little to no effort to acquire? I don't understand, but I truly do want to.

"A bunch of epics"..,no I just see gear my toon is wearing, Unlike you I dont have conniption fits over "gear" and I sure as hell dont give two hoots what some other guy is wearing. The gear I have is satisfactory for what I need to do. It is a tool to do what I want to do.

You sound like Asmontroll.

I am in a guild that raids Mythic and they dont have your hangups They LOVE LFR.

LFR's rewards do not even come close to matching its difficulty.

It drops 685 gear, Tanaan is 650 with the apexis empowered is 695. So?

It causes power creep as one of the four difficulties of raiding. It was poorly implemented in Cataclysm and has never seen a reasonable iteration since. The one good thing about it is that it allows the ultra casual to see the story.

Thats right. And the casuals are the ones whose subs pay for you to be an "elite raider"

Tanaan was part of the end-game patch. What did your gear look like before Tanaan was released?

I have no idea, and I really dont care. I dont keep snapshots of "before and after" Do you?

I'm assuming it was three pieces of crafted gear and LFR? What other options did you have for content? But you're okay with Blizzard slapping a joke difficulty on raiding and calling it content for you, a non-raider.

I raided full clear flex, some Normal and Heroic in Siege. I dont raid anymore. Been there done that. I will be in LFR for this expac and the next if I get Legion, Like more than a few of my cohorts, we are tired of schedules and we cant always gaurantee to be there at set times.

It is what it is.

I was here when LFR launched and I am pleased to say I killed Deathwing in LFR. One of the best moments of my game life...and one of the first boss kills of a raid boss in current content. Did Garrosh in LFR as well....and loved it.

Are you going to be trying to progress in Mythic+?

Not now, not ever.

When the 2nd tier of LFR comes out and blows away all your efforts in Mythic+, which will actually be challenging, are you just going to say wow yeah this is totally acceptable?

I dont CARE about gear. I literally DONT CARE.

Unlike you, I dont have this obsession with what others have. I dont raid mythic. I never have and I never will. My organised raiding days are over, done.

I play for fun and for relaxation. Do you?

[Deleted]

Um

Participation figures are (Data from SoO, using current terminology):

LFR: 70%
Heroic: 35%
Mythic 10%

Hate to say this but that there says Im right



All kinds of things from pet battling to arch to crafting, to dungeons, to LFR to virtually every activity in the game sans organised raidng and pvp. Working on Loremaster right now. Got that achieve? Do every quest in every zone of the game?

Doing that right now.

Heh and Ive levelled what....12 alts so far? With more to come.

Or some days I just goof off and fish, fly, gather, craft..whatever takes my fancy. I dont raid and Im not on a raid team so Im pretty much able to do whatever the hell I feel like.

Now and then I literally take off and go sightseeing for the hell of it. Did you know that there are at least a dozen spots in Kalimdor alone where the devs left blank spaces? I also found what looks like an abandoned campiing area.



"A bunch of epics"..,no I just see gear my toon is wearing, Unlike you I dont have conniption fits over "gear" and I sure as hell dont give two hoots what some other guy is wearing. The gear I have is satisfactory for what I need to do. It is a tool to do what I want to do.

You sound like Asmontroll.

I am in a guild that raids Mythic and they dont have your hangups They LOVE LFR.



It drops 685 gear, Tanaan is 650 with the apexis empowered is 695. So?



Thats right. And the casuals are the ones whose subs pay for you to be an "elite raider"



I have no idea, and I really dont care. I dont keep snapshots of "before and after" Do you?



I raided full clear flex, some Normal and Heroic in Siege. I dont raid anymore. Been there done that. I will be in LFR for this expac and the next if I get Legion, Like more than a few of my cohorts, we are tired of schedules and we cant always gaurantee to be there at set times.

It is what it is.

I was here when LFR launched and I am pleased to say I killed Deathwing in LFR. One of the best moments of my game life...and one of the first boss kills of a raid boss in current content. Did Garrosh in LFR as well....and loved it.



Not now, not ever.



I dont CARE about gear. I literally DONT CARE.

Unlike you, I dont have this obsession with what others have. I dont raid mythic. I never have and I never will. My organised raiding days are over, done.

I play for fun and for relaxation. Do you?

You summed it pretty nice.
What I dont understand why those guys cant understand there are people playing game for different reasons other than raiding.
Is it only words like effort, hard, wiping, min max, playing properly, theorycfraft that they understand? Is there really nothing else for them?
I pretty much understand them, cos I was there, in organized raiding. Why cant they do the same?

[Gilgameshh]

All kinds of things from pet battling to arch to crafting, to dungeons, to LFR to virtually every activity in the game sans organised raidng and pvp. Working on Loremaster right now. Got that achieve? Do every quest in every zone of the game?

Doing that right now.

Heh and Ive levelled what....12 alts so far? With more to come.

Or some days I just goof off and fish, fly, gather, craft..whatever takes my fancy. I dont raid and Im not on a raid team so Im pretty much able to do whatever the hell I feel like.

Now and then I literally take off and go sightseeing for the hell of it. Did you know that there are at least a dozen spots in Kalimdor alone where the devs left blank spaces? I also found what looks like an abandoned campiing area.

So the answer is that no, you don't enjoy challenge in your gameplay. I don't disagree with what is fun for you, but most of the people who play RPGs actually play them to progress their character, and part of that is the challenge of difficult tasks to obtain better optimization (not limited to gear, but with WoW it kind of is). Yes, much of the game is meant for those who just want to relax -- I'm one of those people. I've always loved raiding, but absurd difficulty is the reason I'm not a fan of mythic raiding. Is it TOO challenging? No, of course not; but, it's beyond what I consider relaxing or fun gameplay.

"A bunch of epics"..,no I just see gear my toon is wearing, Unlike you I dont have conniption fits over "gear" and I sure as hell dont give two hoots what some other guy is wearing. The gear I have is satisfactory for what I need to do. It is a tool to do what I want to do.

WoW is a vertical progression MMO-RPG. It's meant to be gear-centric with character progression. If you don't care for gear, this game was not designed with you in mind. It has elements to please people like you, but that's not why this game exists.

You sound like Asmontroll.

He's a bright guy who speaks his mind like anyone else (although you sure seem to be against people speaking their mind if they oppose what you believe). Thanks for the compliment.

I am in a guild that raids Mythic and they dont have your hangups They LOVE LFR.

I find that incredibly hard to believe. LFR contributes to raider burnout because it's a fourth difficulty. Want to gear up an alt? You're probably going to do LFR. There's literally not one person I know who raids mythic in WoD that enjoys LFR.

It drops 685 gear, Tanaan is 650 with the apexis empowered is 695. So?

You've listed a bunch of things you like to do in WoW. Which one requires you to have this gear? Aren't you essentially saying that a nerf to the ilvl to match the content difficulty is just fine by you?

Thats right. And the casuals are the ones whose subs pay for you to be an "elite raider"

Damn, I forgot that raiders don't pay a sub fee. I guess the 10-15% of people who raid aren't covering their share for raid creation. Care to show me the proof of this? I don't think raiding will survive past Legion and to be honest, I'm not going to be very sad because multiple difficulties killed it for me personally. I'll be just fine if they develop challenging 5-man dungeon tiers instead.

I have no idea, and I really dont care. I dont keep snapshots of "before and after" Do you?

You argue that your current gear is Tanaan gear and act as though LFR is basically less offensive. Once again: Tanaan is an end-game patch that would never be put into the beginning of any expansion. LFR is what was offered before that as content. What content did you have before Tanaan outside of LFR? What did your gear look like then? Care to try this again?

Not now, not ever.

Once again, you have no interest in challenging content. That's fine, just know that the game isn't made to cater to someone like you. The game will have challenging content that requires skill and dedication, and whether that's raiding or future dungeons in place of raids, it will always exist. Your argument that the casual sub money is funding this will always be there. It's not raids, it's content that requires dedication and skill. That's your problem, so I'm sorry to inform you that it's never going away.

I dont CARE about gear. I literally DONT CARE.

Unlike you, I dont have this obsession with what others have. I dont raid mythic. I never have and I never will. My organised raiding days are over, done.

I have no obsession, but if that's the best argument you can come up with that's fine; I don't expect anything more than that from you. You don't care about gear but that's what the game is centered around: character progression. You like to talk about minorities? You're the minority.

I play for fun and for relaxation. Do you?

Who plays a game for any other reason? Is this an attempt at getting me to have an epiphany? yawn

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You summed it pretty nice.
What I dont understand why those guys cant understand there are people playing game for different reasons other than raiding.
Is it only words like effort, hard, wiping, min max, playing properly, theorycfraft that they understand? Is there really nothing else for them?
I pretty much understand them, cos I was there, in organized raiding. Why cant they do the same?

Try reading my other responses and you might understand the problem I have. It's a little deeper than, "People are playing the game for reasons other than raiding. Why do they care?"

[Aehl]

If you don't care for gear, this game was not designed with you in mind

WOW was not designed with any one form of gameplay in mind. It never was. There is no "right way to play WOW".

I find that incredibly hard to believe.

Yet its true. The guld I am in raids mythic. Sorry the facts dont fit your narrative.

. LFR is what was offered before that as content. What content did you have before Tanaan outside of LFR? What did your gear look like then? Care to try this again?

I have no idea what my gear used to look like back then, and I really, again, dont care. Hell I mogged a lot of it anyway.

Once again, you have no interest in challenging content

Whats your definition of "challenging"?

I am doing Loremaster right now, and if that isnt an exercise in patience and endurance, I dont know what is. I still have a huge slew to do in both EK and Kalimdor, to me thats a challenge. To have the sticktuitiveness to finish it. Are the mobs hard? Dont be silly.

Will it take a lot of work to complete? You better believe it.

Is it challenging? yes, Why?

Because its a different kind of challenge, one that takes skill and a hell of a lot of patience to complete.

How much of quest content have YOU done? How much arch? Pet battles? Fishing? Or do you see "challenge" in terms of "hard?..if so then what I am doing IS challenging, there are various kinds of "hard".

As one of my nursing tutors once said:

There is only one person in this world you need to compete with, to challenge. And thats yourself

I guess the 10-15% of people who raid aren't covering their share for raid creation.

Vs the 60% or more that do LFR? No they arent. Tell me, what would the dev budget look like if all thats whats left were that 15%? Not much.

It's not raids, it's content that requires dedication and skill. That's your problem, so I'm sorry to inform you that it's never going away.

Many things in game take dedication, skill,. and patience. Yoiur attitude is that if you dont raid then you arent being "challenged". To me, challenge is a much broader term and encompasses a great deal, more than just "this is hard". I will be questing to finish all zones, all areas. It will take weeks to finish. To me thats a challenge...to see if I have what it takes to achieve Loremaster.

I will get it when its done..and I will be pleased with myself. I wont be getting any cool armour, or weapons, or "epics"..all it will be is a tabard and an achievement

Where's the "challenge"? To see if I can.

You don't care about gear but that's what the game is centered around: character progression

Character progression is not just gear. Never was.

Oh and as for Asmontroll, you may consider him bright. I dont. I consider him selfish, self centred and quite frankly, anyone who happily goes into a raid with the sole intent of killing others players just for his own amusement is no one to use as an example of anything.

"If you arent raiding then you arent doing challenging content"

Narrowminded approach and wrong.

What would you say re a player with every fishing achieve in the game? "That isnt challenging"?

Yes it is.

Patience and the ability to stick to a task is just as much of a challenge as a "hard raid boss". I know a guy that does very little else besides fish and pet battles. To you that isnt challenging, to him it is, as he has spent a great deal of time and work to get this far.

So when you think about it, we all challenge ourselves...just not according to one narrow definition.

[Deleted]

Just because you pay for access to something doesn't mean you are entitled or should get to experience it all.

If a small child goes to a theme park there are some rides he can't go on. That's okay he can come back when he's bigger and go on them. It's the same in WoW. If you are not good enough to do heroic + raids you should go away, get better at the game, and come back once you can do them.