Diversity isnt a bad thing, but...

[GodlyBob]

People asking to be represented in videogames because they can't identify to characters otherwise are the most racist/xenophobe/sexist, egocentric and devoided of imagination person that exist.

The inability to relate to a character because he's not YOU is the mark of sociopath.

I play a fucking Dreanei in wow and I find it awesome. I play what's needed in a comp in hots and overwatch, and I love heroes for their look and gameplay I don't NEED to be these characters to love them.

Well, it's nice to be able to see a character and go "that guy went through something similar to me. It's nice to know somebody else experienced what I did." I don't have to always play a part Asian former cable guy who studies dead languages, but I tend tend to sympathize better with people who aren't fully accepted by any group who make up their ancestry because of outward appearance. It's probably the one reason I liked 47 rhonin.

I don't only sympathize with characters who share my background, but I appreciate it when it comes up...which is not nearly as often as you would think.

[Tenjen]

People asking to be represented in videogames because they can't identify to characters otherwise are the most racist/xenophobe/sexist, egocentric and devoided of imagination person that exist.

The inability to relate to a character because he's not YOU is the mark of sociopath.

I play a fucking Dreanei in wow and I find it awesome. I play what's needed in a comp in hots and overwatch, and I love heroes for their look and gameplay I don't NEED to be these characters to love them.

what a load of hyperbole. Please dont over extend one point to an extreme to support a ridiculous argument.

its not "because he's not YOU", or its "a variety of characters with different traits, each of which apply to different people in some way"

Your second statement is especially cringeworthy. Please dont swing your pseudo-academic schlong around by taking actual psychology out of context and out of its intended intepretation.

People keep using hyperbole in this arguement against something that is moderate and chill... not extreme.

Sociopaths are defined by an inability to relate to most people or "characters" whether the avenues of relation exist or not. An inability to relate to a character that lacks anything to for that person to relate to or is a stale clone is an entirely different situation.

Draenai are an example of that diversity.

Everyone is focusing on one single thing and tearing it apart in a discussion about diversity and variety, which in itself is about many different things coming together to become more than the sum of their parts to form a particular richness.

Each character in OW is unique in visual and functional design. they feel different in function and looks when you're behind their eyes and that is part of what makes it a great game in terms of the characters.

[CaptainV]

That is probably fueled by that fact that you are represented in the game.
It still matters.
Imagine you're a girl.. and you want to play something cool and awesome.
But the game you play only has men, because men are awesome and women should do the dishes.
That'd quickly make you feel crap.

My best friend is an asexual female, does she actually 'care' that most of the protagonists in games are male? No.

Ironically she herself prefers to play men, so the thing is, you cant really say "everyone" is the same, shes a pretty diverse female, and im disabled, neither of us actually care that our preferences/sex are represented.

Also, shoe on head argument, there are games where female characters destroy men in an instant and most men are reduced to the role of side character lackey thats only role is to serve as a token love-interest or as a disposable part later in the game.

Its extremely narrow sighted to say that I am represented, or that theres a majority of games out there for me, because I hate to break it to you, but gaming has 'always' been diverse.

Its just that the target niche worked best as a plot device with steriotypes like the hero saving the girl from evil. Its a done to death trope and I wont deny it is in need of a change, but to be honest, most gamers back in the old days bought it just fine, I know alot of girls who played mario and never complained mario was a guy.

They played the game for the game, they didnt care if he had a moustache, saved a princess, demanded a kiss at the end.

So... again.

Im not trying to make you feel like your wrong or that your opinion isnt relevent, I understand your point, I do, but its not necessarily 100% correct, you need to check some facts on research before commiting to it.

[Tenjen]

really this feels more like a general discussion than an OW discussion

[GodlyBob]

My best friend is an asexual female, does she actually 'care' that most of the protagonists in games are male? No.

Ironically she herself prefers to play men, so the thing is, you cant really say "everyone" is the same, shes a pretty diverse female, and im disabled, neither of us actually care that our preferences/sex are represented.

Also, shoe on head argument, there are games where female characters destroy men in an instant and most men are reduced to the role of side character lackey thats only role is to serve as a token love-interest or as a disposable part later in the game.

Its extremely narrow sighted to say that I am represented, or that theres a majority of games out there for me, because I hate to break it to you, but gaming has 'always' been diverse.

Its just that the target niche worked best as a plot device with steriotypes like the hero saving the girl from evil. Its a done to death trope and I wont deny it is in need of a change, but to be honest, most gamers back in the old days bought it just fine, I know alot of girls who played mario and never complained mario was a guy.

They played the game for the game, they didnt care if he had a moustache, saved a princess, demanded a kiss at the end.

So... again.

Im not trying to make you feel like your wrong or that your opinion isnt relevent, I understand your point, I do, but its not necessarily 100% correct, you need to check some facts on research before commiting to it.

You're taking it too far in the opposite direction by implying no real gamer would care about being represented. Some do. A lot.

It's kind of like saying no true gamer would play a tactical rpg because it doesn't require quick reaction. People are different, some of us like to celebrate that, some treat it like the sky is blue and wonder what the rest of us are doing.

[Karnak]

OK OP, as you posted this in the OW section it stands to reason that you find OW's lineup offensively diverse.

Why?

What lineup would you like OW to have? Bunch of white dudes with the token black guy and white woman? Would that reassure you that nobody's creativity is being trampled on by "SJWs"?

Does it occur to you that your demands for limiting diversity and the market's longtime assumption that nothing focused on anything other than a white, male protagonist is financially viable might well have been trampling on game maker's creativity for decades?

[Tenjen]

Im not trying to make you feel like your wrong or that your opinion isnt relevent, I understand your point, I do, but its not necessarily 100% correct, you need to check some facts on research before commiting to it.

He isnt arguing that his point is the end all, be all truth that must be applied to each and everything. Nothing is 100%.

Your example of Mario. People bought it then, but they started getting tired of it. Mario had to reinvent, then drop certain old characteristics completely. Same with Zelda. People moved on and game developers realized they had to move with them. Plus in those days access and availability was limited. When access and availability of games and news concerning games became widespread, things changed, the market changed and what people wanted (not "wished for" but would actually buy and play; two different things) changed

Theres just this knee jerk reaction that anything with some element of diversity, even if done right, is reviled and attacked as if its using it like a gimmick. Which a handful of games have done, especially the early ones which showed designers how to do it right for the future but is far removed from the amount of venom people seem to react with to games that handle it well.

[Breccia]

The only solution is to play Japanese games since they don't give a shit about sjw and pleasing them. Or at least import ones, anyway.

And now, Barret Wallace.

Black, amputee, single father, and major character in FF7, one of the most famous JRPGs of all time.

No idea if he was added to please SJWs or not. I just thought I'd mention him.

[Berethos08]

The truth is, its not the colour of their skin, the sex they represent, or the sexuality they stand for. It really doesnt matter if they are disabled, straight, gay, transgender, or anything else.

Before and above all else, what matters is, are they interesting as a person. If the answer is yes, then its not because of their appearence or cliche that they are interesting, its beause of their design.

If it doesn't matter if they disabled, straight, gay, transgender, or anything else...why did you just go to such lengths to justify why you don't want to see it "forced" upon you (where apparently just having it be present as a known fact about a character is having it forced on you - really, the weight people attach to sexuality as a character trait is ridiculous, as it could be one thing in a list of two dozen and people immediately call it out as the defining trait when it isn't)?

If it truly didn't matter to you, then Blizzard saying "this character is gay" and "this character is on the spectrum" would just be extra information present that wouldn't impact you positively or negatively. Instead, it matters enough to you that you are trying to say why it shouldn't be included.

Honestly it should be "let's have a diverse cast of various characters with different aspects of who they are, as long as it's not in a setting that precludes a great amount of diversity" and then leave it at that.

Instead we get this:

Character who is this speed, wields x weapon, listens to this kind of music, comes from this country, has these talents. "Cool."

Character who is this speed, wields x weapon, listens to this kind of music, comes from this country, has these talents, is gay. "WTF SJW are trying to force things on us, screw this."

[Deleted]

If it doesn't matter if they disabled, straight, gay, transgender, or anything else...why did you just go to such lengths to justify why you don't want to see it "forced" upon you (where apparently just having it be present as a known fact about a character is having it forced on you - really, the weight people attach to sexuality as a character trait is ridiculous, as it could be one thing in a list of two dozen and people immediately call it out as the defining trait when it isn't)?

If it truly didn't matter to you, then Blizzard saying "this character is gay" and "this character is on the spectrum" would just be extra information present that wouldn't impact you positively or negatively. Instead, it matters enough to you that you are trying to say why it shouldn't be included.

Honestly it should be "let's have a diverse cast of various characters with different aspects of who they are, as long as it's not in a setting that precludes a great amount of diversity" and then leave it at that.

Instead we get this:

Character who is this speed, wields x weapon, listens to this kind of music, comes from this country, has these talents. "Cool."

Character who is this speed, wields x weapon, listens to this kind of music, comes from this country, has these talents, is gay. "WTF SJW are trying to force things on us, screw this."

That's basically all there is to it, but people like OP will never acknowledge it.

[Ins0mnia]

And now, Barret Wallace.

Black, amputee, single father, and major character in FF7, one of the most famous JRPGs of all time.

No idea if he was added to please SJWs or not. I just thought I'd mention him.

in 1996 we didn't have the insanity of SJWs. This char is just badass.

[Karnak]

WhiteFlagofWar,

You are assuming that marketing decisions are the same as game designer decisions and that the games of yesteryear were just what natural unfettered creativity would result in when that is not at all correct.

Now we have a situation where anytime any character is created and isn't a white male a bunch of raging neckbeards use it as an excuse to lash out at "SJWs" for forcing the game maker into making a character who isn't a white male.

Can you not see that your demands that every character who doesn't specifically need to be a different ethnicity or gender be a white male is the same as demanding that no characters who don't need to be a white male be made as a white male? It is the same creativity stifling crap you accuse others of doing.

In a character whose's ethnicity doesn't matter, why should it default to "white" and the same for gender, why should the default be "male"?

Can't you enjoy a game that has an international cast? Did you rage against Street Fighter II's international cast? Why is it suddenly an issue now?

As a heterosexual, brown haired, white, male gamer who has been a gamer since 1983, I say bring on the diversity. I am very much enjoying the greater variety. I was, frankly, bored of playing as an overmuscled white dude in most games.

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in 1996 we didn't have the insanity of SJWs. This char is just badass.

No, you have it backwards. We don't have SJWs now, but we have lots of whiners about SJWs whenever a character like Barret Wallace shows up in a game. After all, no game maker left to their own creativity would ever make a character who isn't a white male if those evil SJWs didn't force them to do so. /s

[Deleted]

I've said this before and I'll say it again:

Don't make gay characters.

Make characters who happen to be gay.

Don't make lesbian characters.

Make characters who happen to be lesbians.

My point is, their sexuality or gender shouldn't be their defining characteristic.

Dorian from DA:I is an excellent example, he is an incredibly well written deep, and interesting character, he's also gay but that's not why he's interesting.

[Deleted]

That is probably fueled by that fact that you are represented in the game.
It still matters.
Imagine you're a girl.. and you want to play something cool and awesome.
But the game you play only has men, because men are awesome and women should do the dishes.
That'd quickly make you feel crap.

I have *NEVER*

Let me repeat that NEVER. EVER. Met a woman who thought, ''oh, I wont play this game because it has a male main character''

as I NEVER EVER have met a man who has decided not to play a game because it has a female lead.

That's fucking ridiculous.

To add to that.

Girls that actually play games (real games, not angry birds, farmville etc,), hates this ''oh we need female characters cus empowerment'' shit more than anyone.

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There's absolutely nothing wrong with diversity. Having a wide range of characters is a good thing. There's also nothing inherently wrong with having less diversity, when it makes sense.

Overwatch is a game about an international group of heroes. If everyone were white males, it would be a ridiculous representation. As it is, it has a diverse cast of characters that represent a wide spectrum of peoples. That's good. That makes sense.

If I make a game about... I dunno... The Arthurian saga, for example, if the cast of characters are white anglo-saxons, it would make sense. It isn't diverse, but it represents a specific era of time in a specific location where racial diversity doesn't make a ton of sense.

Fictional worlds become tricky. There isn't an easy answer. But having diversity in a fictional setting isn't a bad thing. It isn't always about being PC, or pleasing phantom SJWs. Crafting a story with a diverse cast of characters is usually just a plain more interesting choice.

Diversity for Diversitys sake is always bad though.

Also, no one argues agianst there being characters from all over the world.

Just that it does not matter.

Their country of origin, sexuality etc. doesn't make them interesting.

Their backstory does.

[Deleted]

It really doesnt matter if they are disabled, straight, gay, transgender, or anything else.

It does, people actually affectionate League of Legend's Taric solely because he's portrayed as gay. I'd say it adds flavor to the game.

Do you like the black guy because hes black? No, you like him because hes a badass.

Yes, I liked Lucian because he was the first black character in League and thought it was refreshing

Do you watch a female char because shes portrayed as a strong, independant epic badass that can beat up men? No, you watch her because shes cool, and thats really what appeals.

It isn't really my cup of tea but, isn't the fact that the said women is strong, independant and can beat up men what is supposed to make her cool ?

Wether or not I appreciate the design a character will almost entirely depend on its physical appearance in a game such as Overwatch, since I don't give jackshit about the lore.

[Deleted]

so much this

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Linkle.

10chars

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OK OP, as you posted this in the OW section it stands to reason that you find OW's lineup offensively diverse.

Why?

What lineup would you like OW to have? Bunch of white dudes with the token black guy and white woman? Would that reassure you that nobody's creativity is being trampled on by "SJWs"?

Does it occur to you that your demands for limiting diversity and the market's longtime assumption that nothing focused on anything other than a white, male protagonist is financially viable might well have been trampling on game maker's creativity for decades?

Oh my god for fucks sake do you SJW know how to read?

Seriously. HE NEVER SAID TO NOT INCLUDE THOSE

JUST THAT THEIR STORIES ARE INTERESTED DESPITE WHERE THEY ARE FROM.

THE CHARACTERS ARE NOT INTERESTING BECAUSE THEY ARE FROM X
They are interesting because of story element Y

For the same reason as we have iconic characters like Morpheus from Matrix.
He's not interesting because he's black
He's interesting because of his story,

And if you truly believe, that he is only interesting because he's black. You sir, are an incredible Racist.
If you agree with what I said, that Morpheus is interesting because of his story, and not the colour of his skin.
You agree with OP to 100%.

So which one is it?

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That's basically all there is to it, but people like OP will never acknowledge it.

What part of OP's post did you not understand?

People don't want diversity for diversitys sake.

That's all OP is saying.

You are the people bitching on about race, how it's important.

Guess what, its not.

The story and gameplay is important.

If mei was black, it wouldnt change it one bit.

OP simply wants;
a great game, with great characters.
a great story.

and does not want that to change when the game is almost done.

So that we have a solid story, solid lore to go on. Which we have.

We don't want things to be changed.

How could you possibly not understand that from what OP is writing?

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No, you have it backwards. We don't have SJWs now, but we have lots of whiners about SJWs whenever a character like Barret Wallace shows up in a game. After all, no game maker left to their own creativity would ever make a character who isn't a white male if those evil SJWs didn't force them to do so. /s

We don't have SJW now? Seriously. top fucking Kek. Have you been on the internet?

Link me to ONE credible source that have people complaining about a Barret Wallace character that was DESIGNED to be that way from the start.

One credible source. That's all I'm asking.

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It does, people actually affectionate League of Legend's Taric solely because he's portrayed as gay. I'd say it adds flavor to the game.



Yes, I liked Lucian because he was the first black character in League and thought it was refreshing



It isn't really my cup of tea but, isn't the fact that the said women is strong, independant and can beat up men what is supposed to make her cool ?

Wether or not I appreciate the design a character will almost entirely depend on its physical appearance in a game such as Overwatch, since I don't give jackshit about the lore.

If you like people soley based on their colour, you are frankly one of the most disgusting people I've ever seen on here.

[Clone]

Linkle.

10chars

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Oh my god for fucks sake do you SJW know how to read?

Seriously. HE NEVER SAID TO NOT INCLUDE THOSE

JUST THAT THEIR STORIES ARE INTERESTED DESPITE WHERE THEY ARE FROM.

THE CHARACTERS ARE NOT INTERESTING BECAUSE THEY ARE FROM X
They are interesting because of story element Y

For the same reason as we have iconic characters like Morpheus from Matrix.
He's not interesting because he's black
He's interesting because of his story,

And if you truly believe, that he is only interesting because he's black. You sir, are an incredible Racist.
If you agree with what I said, that Morpheus is interesting because of his story, and not the colour of his skin.
You agree with OP to 100%.

So which one is it?

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What part of OP's post did you not understand?

People don't want diversity for diversitys sake.

That's all OP is saying.

You are the people bitching on about race, how it's important.

Guess what, its not.

The story and gameplay is important.

If mei was black, it wouldnt change it one bit.

OP simply wants;
a great game, with great characters.
a great story.

and does not want that to change when the game is almost done.

So that we have a solid story, solid lore to go on. Which we have.

We don't want things to be changed.

How could you possibly not understand that from what OP is writing?

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We don't have SJW now? Seriously. top fucking Kek. Have you been on the internet?

Link me to ONE credible source that have people complaining about a Barret Wallace character that was DESIGNED to be that way from the start.

One credible source. That's all I'm asking.

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If you like people soley based on their colour, you are frankly one of the most disgusting people I've ever seen on here.

Exhibit A of whiners of SJW.

Be honest with yourself dude, you are anti diversity and just using "kek graet charatrz" as a shield to hide behind.

[Deleted]

Linkle.

10chars

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Oh my god for fucks sake do you SJW know how to read?

Seriously. HE NEVER SAID TO NOT INCLUDE THOSE

JUST THAT THEIR STORIES ARE INTERESTED DESPITE WHERE THEY ARE FROM.

THE CHARACTERS ARE NOT INTERESTING BECAUSE THEY ARE FROM X
They are interesting because of story element Y

For the same reason as we have iconic characters like Morpheus from Matrix.
He's not interesting because he's black
He's interesting because of his story,

And if you truly believe, that he is only interesting because he's black. You sir, are an incredible Racist.
If you agree with what I said, that Morpheus is interesting because of his story, and not the colour of his skin.
You agree with OP to 100%.

So which one is it?

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What part of OP's post did you not understand?

People don't want diversity for diversitys sake.

That's all OP is saying.

You are the people bitching on about race, how it's important.

Guess what, its not.

The story and gameplay is important.

If mei was black, it wouldnt change it one bit.

OP simply wants;
a great game, with great characters.
a great story.

and does not want that to change when the game is almost done.

So that we have a solid story, solid lore to go on. Which we have.

We don't want things to be changed.

How could you possibly not understand that from what OP is writing?

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We don't have SJW now? Seriously. top fucking Kek. Have you been on the internet?

Link me to ONE credible source that have people complaining about a Barret Wallace character that was DESIGNED to be that way from the start.

One credible source. That's all I'm asking.

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If you like people soley based on their colour, you are frankly one of the most disgusting people I've ever seen on here.

I don't like real people because of their colour, in fact, I don't care about such things in real life
But when it comes to video games, it's different, I just don't want all the characters to look the same, even when it comes to their skin color or gender. Whenever I create a character in a game, I chose to create a female that is as white as possible because I think it looks cooler that way, I don't think that makes me an horrible person.

[Blur4stuff]

content is usually made for a specific audience. while north america and europe has a lot of diversity, it's still by far majority white. so of course most media content features white people.

would these same complainers go on chinese news broadcast and complain that chinese made movies don't star enough black or white people? needs more brown maybe?

it's ridiculous. given the percentages that certain groups make up, western media is imbalanced against "typical white male" more than any other group. it's also the friendliest environment for sexual preferences and gender identity.

[jellmoo]

Diversity for Diversitys sake is always bad though.

It isn't though. It's only bad when it's poorly done. If game developers think that a game would be better with a more diverse cast, and do a great job of it, that's not a bad thing.

Just that it does not matter.

Their country of origin, sexuality etc. doesn't make them interesting.

Their backstory does.

All of those items are part of a backstory though. Growing up in Ghana is a different experience than growing up in England. Being a part of a bi-racial household is different than being a part of a monoracial one. Discovering that your gay in your teens is different than having a straight sexual awakening.

The individual pieces don't make characters interesting, but those components can be and often are an integral part of the whole character.