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  1. #821
    Quote Originally Posted by Plaguestorm View Post
    because they just updated it and there is only like... 5 people complaining about the trolls? idk about you buy this is the only place i see people complaining about trolsl, its mostly the worgen, the trolls look fine, other then their weird spine bend in some points and the crusty braid
    I don't understand. If you are replying inside a thread that has 40-some-odd pages of replies and believe no one has a problem with the troll models..? Than I think you are the troll.

    To acknowledge (or ask?) that worgens also have an issue is one thing. I mean, personally I love the female worgs, but their faces look like a cross between a rat, cat, bat & weasel. Last time I rolled a new worgen, I rolled a male for the 1st time ever. I love the animations and the character in general. But the female faces are terrible, imo.

    But that doesn't mean trolls are fine, just because I also find flaws with worgen. One issue does not negate the other from actually existing. What you're attempting to do is use fallacious reasoning in order to derail the topic of the thread.

  2. #822
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwordofZoro View Post
    I don't understand. If you are replying inside a thread that has 40-some-odd pages of replies and believe no one has a problem with the troll models..? Than I think you are the troll.

    To acknowledge (or ask?) that worgens also have an issue is one thing. I mean, personally I love the female worgs, but their faces look like a cross between a rat, cat, bat & weasel. Last time I rolled a new worgen, I rolled a male for the 1st time ever. I love the animations and the character in general. But the female faces are terrible, imo.

    But that doesn't mean trolls are fine, just because I also find flaws with worgen. One issue does not negate the other from actually existing. What you're attempting to do is use fallacious reasoning in order to derail the topic of the thread.
    no i was more of going into, is there something im missing with trolls? as all i see is the spine issue, and non psyics hair, then complaining blizz is doing nothing about it, when they are probably focusing on the worgen
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  3. #823
    Warchief ImpTaimer's Avatar
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    Wait... are they seriously fucking up the old models now?

    I can't save myself from the garbage of the new race models?
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  4. #824
    Quote Originally Posted by Plaguestorm View Post
    because they just updated it and there is only like... 5 people complaining about the trolls?
    I don't care. I mentioned the values of professionalism and having pride in one's craft because that's things I'd expect from a frigging AAA video game developer like Blizzard entertainment... Especially as a continually paying customer.

    Furthermore, the Troll male isn't the only model which isn't on par quality wise compared to most other revamped PC models (but I'd personally argue that it's one of the worst off). The models should be of equal quality across the board and they aren't. That was a big part of the whole reason they started this model revamp project in the first place; because the world and the pandaren (and to a lesser extent Worgen and Goblins) was steadily leaving the original races in the dust graphically.

    Despite that we have character models, like the Troll male for instance, which looks worse in both textures and geometry compared to not only their "peers", but worse yet; NPC races! Vrykul, Nightborne, arguably even the Ogres and various other monsters from WoD and Legion.

    WoW is an RPG, the race and gender you choose is part of the customization aspect inherent to that genre, so every option offered by the game should aesthetically be of equal quality. I shouldn't have to feel like I'm picking something lesser when chosing a Troll male, or a Worgen, Goblin or a non-DH Nelf (to bring up some other examples of unfinished/inferior models).

    Additionally, our characters are the "protagonists" of our experiences within the game, and in most other games it wouldn't be acceptable if the character you're playing as looks worse than most everything else surrounding you in that game... which, again, is probably part of the whole reason they even felt the need to try and give an update our characters.

    The fact of the matter is that this project is incomplete, and they should finish what they started.

    Quote Originally Posted by Plaguestorm View Post
    the trolls look fine, other then their weird spine bend in some points and the crusty braid
    The weird spine and the starch-braid are indeed the biggest problems for me, and the most glaring examples of how unfinished the model is, and both of these things have been around for over a year and a half now (?). The female Worgen have some huge issues I'll give you that, but most of them were better hidden than these two features on the Troll males if you have that hairstyle... Anyhow, as someone pointed out above, the existence of one problem doesn't negate another and as such I also want to see the Worgen models addressed.

    Beyond that, I've been playing Troll dudes since the tail-end of vanilla, I fell totally in love with the race and I adored 95% of the original model and as such I have paid a lot of attention to it. I realize I'm in the minority but just because most people don't see the dissimilarities or don't talk about them doesn't mean they're not there... Because it's not just that their textures clearly have less detail and/or are lower resolution/stretched out compared to most other race models (barring the Nelf male who's even worse off in this case) or that the wire-mesh is rather shapeless and lacking in muscle contours comparatively, they also needlessly changed muscle volume and animations.

    In terms of the former, because my editing skills are nonexistent I'm trying to make some sketches that I'll use (when my scanner stops acting up) to highlight these changes and to also provide an illustration suggesting a build for the revamped Troll that'll return (and sometime emphasize) the concentrated bulk in regions of his body where it was shaved off, while also filling out anatomical details in the textures...

    Quote Originally Posted by ImpTaimer View Post
    Wait... are they seriously fucking up the old models now?

    I can't save myself from the garbage of the new race models?
    Nope... the animations of the new models are being transplanted onto the old, which means that expressions and faces will be warped to the point of being unrecognizable. If you happen to play a Troll male, you'll also have to put up with the original model getting afflicted with the gravity defying braid and the flattening back as well, I'm sure other similar issues are being carried over to the old models of other races too...
    Last edited by Oggudrai; 2016-05-22 at 04:48 PM.

  5. #825
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    Fuck the goofy "HD" troll animations. I didn't play a troll for over 10 years to start being goofy. I played one cause of WC2 Berserkers.

    There's no way in hell I'll ever believe they didn't outsource the work on this shit.
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  6. #826
    I've heard rumours that the animations for the revamped models were primarily handled by one guy? I'm not certain if that's true, but I think the person in question is one of Blizzards' own.

  7. #827
    Titan Zulkhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImpTaimer View Post
    Fuck the goofy "HD" troll animations. I didn't play a troll for over 10 years to start being goofy. I played one cause of WC2 Berserkers.
    Indeed. Honestly, even the Darkspear Berserkers of WC3 were absolutely great. But in WoW Troll models never convinced me. The females are fine, but the males...I can't get behind them.
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  8. #828
    I can kind of get why people would like the troll male bulked up to some extent, and seeing how Blizzard did it with both the Draenei and Nelf male I feel there's a precedent for the revamped Troll male deserving more bulk than the old one has... and yet, they actually reduced their muscle definition in most ways instead...

    If we had the same build as Vol'jin's unique model (and also visible eyecolour) I'd be perfectly content in terms of the model itself.

    ... I still want the old walk back, or at least more faithfully recreated, it was fine... awesome even. Objectively I didn't see any problems with it, I don't understand why it needed to be changed up so much, considering how much it flies in the face of "the same but HD" goal they were hyping up and failed to uphold in many ways.

    That said at some point I hope they give us the option to choose between alternate body builds if anything, if sliders remain too advanced for WoW's software.

    But yeah, speaking of WC3 berserkers, I found this model-edit interesting:



    Apart from being kinda cool (imo anyhow) I do think it's interesting to note that the textures, while not inherently amazing, do seem to look less awkward anatomically on this model, even though it has its own flaws...

    This suspicion is really nothing new but it really does make me think that the textures was made too small to align with the wire-mesh as intended. Perhaps it wasn't even made by the same artist?

    One peculiar thing is that the Troll male shares a certain design choice with the Tauren, Draenei, Nelf and human male in how the triceps are portrayed: on the bulkier models the triceps brachii extend all the way down to the elbow, eliminating the triceps tendon.

    This doesn't look as silly when it's on such bulky races in my opinion (even though it's not present on the Orc's arm, and I do prefer that look), on the Troll male however it just looks weird and unnatural. It's not in line with the muscle definition of the old model either... It's a weird oversight/choice.
    Last edited by Oggudrai; 2016-05-22 at 05:39 PM.

  9. #829
    Quote Originally Posted by Plaguestorm View Post
    because they just updated it and there is only like... 5 people complaining about the trolls? idk about you buy this is the only place i see people complaining about trolls, its mostly the worgen, the trolls look fine, other then their weird spine bend in some points and the crusty braid
    You know it takes a nerve to tell players of certain race (which you clearly don't play yourself) that they make issue out of nothing. And yet in same sentence do a double standart treatment. So worgen players CAN complain about model, troll players can't - why? Becuase Plaguestrom sais so.

    Forget that you played the race for x-years or so, that you got attached and see every flaw and that as customer you expect professional treatment. To the person above sais it's non-issue - so drop it.

    Together with many players we gathered the feedback from every thread, and basicly feedpoon it to every person that couldn't be familiar with all the issues and certainly for developers to make it easer for them to adress it.

    And this is why I was also annoyed with troll catform because they deserved better treatment. Devs AT LEAST could've bothered to remove eyebrows.
    Last edited by Ramz; 2016-05-22 at 05:40 PM.

  10. #830
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramz View Post
    You know it takes a nerve to tell players of certain race (which you clearly don't play yourself) that they make issue out of nothing. And yet in same sentence do a double standart treatment. So worgen players CAN complain about model, troll players can't - why? Becuase Plaguestrom sais so.

    Forget that you played the race for x-years or so, that you got attached and see every flaw and that as customer you expect professional treatment. To the person above sais it's non-issue - so drop it.

    Together with many players we gathered the feedback from every thread, and basicly feedpoon it to every person that couldn't be familiar with all the issues and certainly for developers to make it easer for them to adress it.

    And this is why I was also annoyed with troll catform because they deserved better treatment. Devs AT LEAST could've bothered to remove eyebrows.
    i clearly dont play myself? e.o? ive been playing trolls since vanilla, my first char was a troll hunter

    and no i dident say that troll players cant complain, as i say later about the spine and weird hair, i just find it annoying that people say stuff like

    "I just don't understand why they would neglect such a basic aspect of the game, you'd think there'd be more pride in the craft"

    blizzards art team does take pride when what they do is good, they had to rush out wod, and maybe couldn't get the time to perfectly fix the troll
    and the issue is they are SUPER busy right now, and may not have the time to fix that issue

    the blizzards art team is one of the only things keeping them afloat right now, and to say something like that is so demeaning...

    im sure the art team is not proud of the weird spine bends... or the anti gravity hair... but they are busy right now, and it is the designers choice what they work on, not the artists themselves...

    i just dont like how people are putting it on the artists... like when people say "BLIZZARD IS ALL SHIT" because of wow, when blizzard is not just wow, its starcraft (awesome) Diablo (pretty good) Hearthstone (amazing) Hots( Pretty good) and overwatch (Beautiful)

    im sure when the artists get the chance they will fix it... but right now they are way to busy...

    but yeah i would like to see the trolls bulked up abit... not quite as much as the troll bezerkers there... but right now they have noodle arms :P

    im just more for, if they get the chance, and are not busy, mabye they should do worgens (maybe goblins) before fixing up the trolls? cause man those worgen... and their hair... i dont have a single worgen for a reason
    Last edited by FelPlague; 2016-05-22 at 05:58 PM.
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  11. #831
    Quote Originally Posted by Plaguestorm View Post
    i clearly dont play myself? e.o? ive been playing trolls since vanilla, my first char was a troll hunter

    and no i dident say that troll players cant complain, as i say later about the spine and weird hair, i just find it annoying that people say stuff like

    "I just don't understand why they would neglect such a basic aspect of the game, you'd think there'd be more pride in the craft"

    blizzards art team does take pride when what they do is good, they had to rush out wod, and maybe couldn't get the time to perfectly fix the troll
    and the issue is they are SUPER busy right now, and may not have the time to fix that issue

    the blizzards art team is one of the only things keeping them afloat right now, and to say something like that is so demeaning...
    Maybe you should've read the rest of my post then:

    Only reason I can think of anymore is that the problem must be based in management and that it's due to decisions which are above the artists' paygrades... because the ones I've heard from seem to have aforementioned pride in craftsmanship, they seem to have integrity... so if my suspicions are true that could explain this maddening silence as well.
    Because what I actually said was that my impression is that the artists are hard-working people of integrity...

    Quote Originally Posted by Plaguestorm View Post
    im sure the art team is not proud of the weird spine bends... or the anti gravity hair... but they are busy right now, and it is the designers choice what they work on, not the artists themselves...
    Then I would've liked to just hear them tell us that... even if it's later accompanied by "but we don't know when we can fix it because we're rather busy right now".

    But what I meant by "neglect" wasn't just how long it's taken to get anything on the Troll male and other similarly unfinished models fixed, I'm referring to the utter silence about the entire issue as an extension of that... I could forgive a lot of explanations (not including "no we won't fix these issues") but my biggest gripe is that they aren't saying squat. I don't think that's on the aritsts, which is why when I've been prodding the devs I've been prodding their general twitter, not the individual artists, and when I do prod them I try to be civil and respectful.

    Beyond that I know and acknowledge why the Troll male was in the state that it's currently in by the time the deadline hit, during the time they were working on it the artist had an accident and cut a tendon in his hand while sculpting, luckily he's recovered and I don't hold the subsequent state of the model upon initial release against him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Plaguestorm View Post
    i just dont like how people are putting it on the artists... like when people say "BLIZZARD IS ALL SHIT" because of wow, when blizzard is not just wow, its starcraft (awesome) Diablo (pretty good) Hearthstone (amazing) Hots( Pretty good) and overwatch (Beautiful)

    im sure when the artists get the chance they will fix it... but right now they are way to busy...
    The least I'm asking of them these days is that they tell us if that's the case, I imagine that's the case, but right now I'm not even sure if any of the feedback given here will be addressed. For all I know the artists' aren't being allowed to finish the models.

    I do find it weird though that the models the most need of work have also gotten the least tweaks. Perhaps that's just because everything else is less time-consuming.

    Again, it's the silence more than anything that's driving me nuts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Plaguestorm View Post
    but yeah i would like to see the trolls bulked up abit... not quite as much as the troll bezerkers there... but right now they have noodle arms :P
    Actually their arms were a tad bulked up compared to how they once were, though in terms of muscle definition and anatomy in the textures they come off as weird, especially the triceps are pretty flat. From the front they could probably use a hint more girth, similarly to their legs.
    Last edited by Oggudrai; 2016-05-26 at 03:26 AM.

  12. #832
    Titan Zulkhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oggudrai View Post
    But yeah, speaking of WC3 berserkers, I found this model-edit interesting:



    Apart from being kinda cool (imo anyhow) I do think it's interesting to note that the textures, while not inherently amazing, do seem to look less awkward anatomically on this model, even though it has its own flaws...

    This suspicion is really nothing new but it really does make me think that the textures was made too small to align with the wire-mesh as intended. Perhaps it wasn't even made by the same artist?

    One peculiar thing is that the Troll male shares a certain design choice with the Tauren, Draenei, Nelf and human male in how the triceps are portrayed: on the bulkier models the triceps brachii extend all the way down to the elbow, eliminating the triceps tendon.

    This doesn't look as silly when it's on such bulky races in my opinion (even though it's not present on the Orc's arm, and I do prefer that look), on the Troll male however it just looks weird and unnatural. It's not in line with the muscle definition of the old model either... It's a weird oversight/choice.
    Apart the fact that it looks a bit too bulky, it looks so much better than anything we ever seen in WoW. Slightly less bulky than that and it would have been absolutely perfect.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keyblader View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heladys View Post
    The game didn't give me any good reason to hate the horde. Forums did that.

  13. #833
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post

    i just dont like how people are putting it on the artists... like when people say "BLIZZARD IS ALL SHIT" because of wow, when blizzard is not just wow, its starcraft (awesome) Diablo (pretty good) Hearthstone (amazing) Hots( Pretty good) and overwatch (Beautiful)
    Nobody here said "Blizzard is all shit", this whole thread is made in huge respect to the art team, we all realise that troll and nelf male were rushed becuase they were last, and Chris had accident that slowed his work. I know that nobody had patience to go through over 40 pages but we provided positive comments under models too. This thread is meant to be treated as a huge aid for artists to make it easier for them to fix problems.

    im sure when the artists get the chance they will fix it... but right now they are way to busy...
    We realise it to, we just want an answer on if they're aware of problems and if they're gonna adress it anytime soon.

    but yeah i would like to see the trolls bulked up abit... not quite as much as the troll bezerkers there... but right now they have noodle arms :P

    im just more for, if they get the chance, and are not busy, mabye they should do worgens (maybe goblins) before fixing up the trolls? cause man those worgen... and their hair... i dont have a single worgen for a reason
    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    Apart the fact that it looks a bit too bulky, it looks so much better than anything we ever seen in WoW. Slightly less bulky than that and it would have been absolutely perfect.

    I was playing with 3D modeling yesterday and here is my proposition on how to increase bulk and at the same time keep the lean and lanky appearance.
    I just also want for them to look convinceable as warriors.

    I'll try to take approach on rigging and texturing later, as the texturing also irks me at few places.
    AND I'll try to adress that hairstyle finally once I'll have some more time.


  14. #834
    Yeah, definitely in favour of a bulk-up of a similar degree. Initially I just wanted the model recreating the volume of the original at about as closely as humanly possible, but since the Nelf and Draenei male got bulked up, I figure it's just fair, and I always liked the extent of Vol'jin's muscularity, this is a pretty good approximation of being boosted similarly.
    Last edited by Oggudrai; 2016-06-08 at 07:28 PM.

  15. #835
    The Troll male is as much of an unfinished model, if not more, than the male Worgen is, albeit not as unfinished as the Worgen female... So no, I disagree, I don't think they're even remotely fine: not while they look worse than the more polished revamped models and not while they're needlessly dissimilar to the original in aspects that were fine to begin with both animation wise and bodybuild-wise.

    And certainly not when they look worse than NPC races (such as Ogres, Vrykul and Nightborne etc etc...)

    For the record, I think Worgen sorely need an update, and if they prioritized giving them and goblins a revamped model before fixing the existing HD models that are inferior I'd be fine with that... but only if I knew fixes were coming for the rest as well...
    Last edited by Oggudrai; 2016-06-08 at 07:35 PM.

  16. #836
    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    Trolls are fine so far even with their flaws. But Worgen....thats another story. For me trolls are playable, worgen, are not.
    Believe me you wouldn't like to get the same treatment as troll and nelf male received. So before you'll get new worgen model you better wish for developers to simply finish their job and do it right. Otherwise you might end up with the same treatment.

    Could you imagine if worgen female would end up with same bugs? Or even bigger defects?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oggudrai View Post
    Yeah, definitely in favour of a bulk-up of a similar degree. Initially I just wanted the model recreating the volume of the original at about as closely as humanly possible, but since the Nelf and Draenei male got bulked up, I figure it's just fair, and I always liked the extent of Vol'jin's muscularity, this is a pretty good approximation of being boosted similarly.
    Specially when my suggestion is rather subtle and doesn't break the overall feel of the race, and yet it does make the male look stronger.

  17. #837
    Deleted
    Great post.

    My biggest issue with trolls is that the camera is located too low, so if you zoom in, as I usually do when I play, then all you can see is your characters back... Very different from other races who usually have it around the neck or even above the head.

    Trolls used to have the camera around their heads like other races, but now it's been changed... I don't see why! Don't see anything when playing trolls! Well that's why I dont play them anymore. leoollll! such a failure and a shame.

    Some time ago I even made a comparison of vanilla and modern trolls and the camera height and was about to post it to blizz forums, but then I thought... who gives a fuck.....

  18. #838
    Deleted
    I dont like the bulking up, i always liked the darkspearmales to be slender and muscular
    there's enough hulking going on with the other races

  19. #839
    Quote Originally Posted by trollateraldamage View Post
    I dont like the bulking up, i always liked the darkspearmales to be slender and muscular
    there's enough hulking going on with the other races
    They're still slender, bulking up was mostly done to the arms, shoulders and calves. Besides it's more anatomically correct with the arms, becuase from ptofile their ams are much wider.

    For those who haven't seen it :




    As for the camera I'm gonna have a look on this one!
    Last edited by Ramz; 2016-06-09 at 05:17 AM.

  20. #840
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramz View Post
    They're still slender, bulking up was mostly done to the arms, shoulders and calves. Besides it's more anatomically correct with the arms, becuase from ptofile their ams are much wider.

    For those who haven't seen it :




    As for the camera I'm gonna have a look on this one!
    i've seen it and i still don't like it. make arms more slender from the other side then, but not broader. i like their slender arms.
    its bad enough that they've bulked up elves.
    i support some butt and the extended heels though

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