Does the 'LFR pays for Raid Development' argument make sense?

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Which would made World Q and Mythic+ dungeons absolote. Yep totaly mazing desing riht there again forcing LFR on non raiders what doesnt wanted to do it in first place.

Not really. Force would be you are required to run it each weak before getting into other raids. It exsisting and having meaningful rewards isn't force. As long as you make mythic+ 5 mans more rewarding than the LFR than that isn't the case. From what I understand they are suppose to be as rewarding as raiding when you get to a certain level. Non-raiders don't have to do LFR if they don't want to again. That would require them to get though LFR before they are allowed to move onto other things in the game.

I do enjoy your point of view though. I will follow your posts so when I need to get a good laugh at a kid making a fool of himself I will have quick access thanks to you. Please.. continue. I will get great joy from your flopping around whining about shit you got no idea about.

[Eapoe]

Now, before I start, let me state I do not want the removal of LFR, I don't really care it exists honsetly. Moving on, the number side is based off of the fact LFR exists. If it didn't, those numbers would be completely different, with normal clears being roughly 60%+ seeing the content. Heroic probably being 40% give or take, with Mythic being still what it is. LFR gives players a reason to not feel a need to do higher difficulty. That being said, it's good for content seeing purposes for players without skill or time needed to do the commitment of higher difficulty.
Also, people are looking at the percent numbers wrong. To put simply: 70% did LFR, 40% did normal. That means that only 30% of players did no raiding at all if taken simply. However, the other way to look at there numbers is: Of the 70% that did LFR, 40% of that number also did heroic, or possibly the 30% that didn't do LFR did heroic with 10% of the 70% moving higher. To put simply, we have the raw numbers of player percentages, but we don't know the way they interacted overall. It's quite possible that 99% of all players saw a raid in some format thru LFR/Normal/etc. If you think that is stretching, keep in mind that just like all the players who do LFR might not go into a higher difficulty, there's normal+ raiders who never step foot in LFR. Before you say "you idiot!" or "that's horseshit," keep in mind this isn't an even 100% playerbase. The totals go to 135% (for those that don't want to do the basic math).

[SodiumChloride]

LFR almost doubles the number of people that see the Raid content.
If LFR did not exist a lot of people would not be interested in subscribing at all after a major content patch has arrived, since they are not interested in joining guilds.

I do not know does LFR actually pay for the whole raid development, but it is definitely a huge chunk of profit.
Especially considering that "dumbing down" the raid is much easier and takes a tiny bit of effort from blizzard.

I would argue that even with LFR "lot of people would not be interested in subscribing".

However LFR is how Blizzard justifies the existence of raid content to themselves, i.e. they are padding raid participation numbers by creating LFR and hiding gear behind it; whether people who are doing LFR actually enjoy it, that's a separate matter.

[Sylvestra]

LFR subs haven't gone up since it was introduced. (not counting start of expacs)
WoW was at it's best without LFR.

Normal raids are so flexible there's no need for LFR anymore. You have no time ? Join a group for a few bosses and leave, you can do join other groups later for other bosses. The no time excuse is no longer valid. The only thing LFR provides is for you not to talk to anyone whatsoever, very MMORPG like am I right ? Yes, didn't think so.

[mysticx]

LFR subs haven't gone up since it was introduced. (not counting start of expacs)
WoW was at it's best without LFR.

Correlation doesn't equal causation, a lot of other things have changed since DS, outside of WoW too...

And the second is subjective opinion, IMO the best time for WoW was MoP, which is also a subjective opinion really, but opinions are like... umm... let's say noses, everybody has one (Let's hope Voldemort doesn't reply to this thread...)

[oldgeezer]

LFR subs haven't gone up since it was introduced. (not counting start of expacs)
WoW was at it's best without LFR.

Normal raids are so flexible there's no need for LFR anymore. You have no time ? Join a group for a few bosses and leave, you can do join other groups later for other bosses. The no time excuse is no longer valid.

Group finder is all well and good, but it doesn't provide automated matchmaking for raiding. Access is community gated and policed...which isn't a good thing. This is why LFR is still necessary.

[ComputerNerd]

I think LFR kills sub numbers because it allows people to see all the content they want without making a single friend. Its the friendships that compel people to stay subbed even when the content is lacking. Once people unsub, its easy to forget the game.

I think this game could go to 30 million subs but the antisocial tools must go. Unfortunately, they added ANOTHER antisocial feature in legion with the DISASTEROUS Suramar quest system. That's yet another thing that needs to be removed but it wont be.

Without LFR, subs would be dramatically higher and you'd have more raiders overall, even if a lower percentage were actually raiding.

And that argument is killed by those who actually raid above LFR, because they choose to do so.
If that argument ever made sense nobody would raid higher, but they do.

Group finder is all well and good, but it doesn't provide automated matchmaking for raiding. Access is community gated and policed...which isn't a good thing. This is why LFR is still necessary.

Very much this.
The community is why group finder is not a replacement for LFR, because of that huge difference.
The lack of player-dictated requirements ABOVE what is actually required and can be very well achieved with an effort from the leader to actually lead.
When currently with group finder that is the opposite of what they are doing with inflated requirements, minimising the amount of work they have to do while maximising the result.
Doing less leading while wanting the full reward.

I would argue that even with LFR "lot of people would not be interested in subscribing".

However LFR is how Blizzard justifies the existence of raid content to themselves, i.e. they are padding raid participation numbers by creating LFR and hiding gear behind it; whether people who are doing LFR actually enjoy it, that's a separate matter.

I don't speak for everyone, nor does anybody else.
But I suspect a lot in LFR are there because that is the only raid format accessible to them, due to the inflated requirements and elitist attitude that permeates organised raiding nowadays.

The community that whines most about LFR is why it exits.

[Jtbrig7390]

Now, before I start, let me state I do not want the removal of LFR, I don't really care it exists honsetly. Moving on, the number side is based off of the fact LFR exists. If it didn't, those numbers would be completely different, with normal clears being roughly 60%+ seeing the content.

Ummm no it wouldn't and blizzard has once again even said so.

Less then 0.1% of the playerbase in TBC seen Sunwell, Less then 10% of the playerbase killed a boss in ICC. Removing LFR does not bump the number for NM+ it lowers the number of raiders overall (Since LFR is raiding).

People don't just go fine fuck it ill do NM+, No they just not do the content or leave. This is why LFR was made, because blizzard can no longer make the bulk of there endgame content only to be seen by 1% of the playerbase.

The day a queable raid mode (LFR or whatever) dies then Raiding itself will go with it.

Want to know why LFG hasn't replaced LFR...look at the community. I can confirm as someone who is in the Legion Beta that Tier/trickets have returned to LFR. Want to know why... Because of the community.

This thread is a perfect example on why the community can't be trusted with the LFG system. So there has to be a system there that lets people see the content without dealing with the trash that go's on in LFG.

[Deleted]

Ummm no it wouldn't and blizzard has once again even said so.

Less then 0.1% of the playerbase in TBC seen Sunwell, Less then 10% of the playerbase killed a boss in ICC. Removing LFR does not bump the number for NM+ it lowers the number of raiders overall (Since LFR is raiding)..

Which is good thing. It create and motivates player to keep playing the game and imptoving their characters and skill. You never want let everyone see everything otherwise most of those players will leave game after 1-2 months becouse they will run out og content to do. And no new difficulty isnt new content and loot, mounts and titles means nothing nowdays. These type of rewards are not appeling anymore as they used to be back in TBC becouse of their exclusive value.

And dont bother to speack about community. This game have no community and you can partially thanks LFR and other automated matchmaking systems for it.

When i was playing vannila now in 2016 on private server. Everyone speak to each other, everyone work together, players instead of leaving group after 1 wipe rather trying to figure out how to not wipe next pull. it is compeltly different and in many ways better game just beocuse of community what plays it. Nobady cares if they can access content or not, nobady cares if they are behind they just play and have fun with content they like. You cant have this in current game desing.

[primalmatter]

Blizzard has said yes and no at different times on this subject... The answer is likely kinda...

Would raiding exist without lfr? Without a doubt. Would it be as big? Likely maybe one or two bosses smaller.

The thing is blizz really,really wants a one size fits all for content and they are starting to realize that doesn't work. i have some doubts about the path they are talking but overall it is better then what we have had recently. Who knows maybe it will finally separate players enough that we all try to stop killing each other.

So no lfr does not fund raid content hell if it did do you really think mythic only bosses would be a thing? It simply exists alongside it.

[Jtbrig7390]

This game have no community and you can partially thanks LFR and other automated matchmaking systems for it.

Many other MMO's out there have the same systems or systems alike with great community's.

So why is WoW different???? It isn't the systems its the fucken community itself. This community is toxic and only gives a fuck about itself. Go spend 2mins just 2mins in fucken trade chat.

- - - Updated - - -

Blizzard has said yes and no at different times on this subject... The answer is likely kinda...

Blizzard has never said no and if they did provide a link with the statement. The only negative thing ever said about LFR by someone working at blizzard and it was ghostclawers comment and he no longer works for blizzard.

http://www.engadget.com/2012/08/23/b...g-progression/

The existence of LFR justifies the creation of more raid content for casual and hardcore players alike.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/...ine-Blue-Posts

LFR justifies the creation of more raid content when millions of players are able to see content. Only a few thousand people actually saw Kel'thuzad, but millions saw Deathwing. The reason Mists of Pandaria is starting with 18 bosses and adding larger raid tiers than we have had previously is because many players are going to see the raids through LFR.

If blizzard wanted LFR gone it would be gone, But Legion is already showing they are backtracking on every single poor ass choice they made in WOD & LFR.

[Jewsco]

Now, before I start, let me state I do not want the removal of LFR, I don't really care it exists honsetly. Moving on, the number side is based off of the fact LFR exists. If it didn't, those numbers would be completely different, with normal clears being roughly 60%+ seeing the content. Heroic probably being 40% give or take, with Mythic being still what it is. LFR gives players a reason to not feel a need to do higher difficulty. That being said, it's good for content seeing purposes for players without skill or time needed to do the commitment of higher difficulty.
Also, people are looking at the percent numbers wrong. To put simply: 70% did LFR, 40% did normal. That means that only 30% of players did no raiding at all if taken simply. However, the other way to look at there numbers is: Of the 70% that did LFR, 40% of that number also did heroic, or possibly the 30% that didn't do LFR did heroic with 10% of the 70% moving higher. To put simply, we have the raw numbers of player percentages, but we don't know the way they interacted overall. It's quite possible that 99% of all players saw a raid in some format thru LFR/Normal/etc. If you think that is stretching, keep in mind that just like all the players who do LFR might not go into a higher difficulty, there's normal+ raiders who never step foot in LFR. Before you say "you idiot!" or "that's horseshit," keep in mind this isn't an even 100% playerbase. The totals go to 135% (for those that don't want to do the basic math).

Why would the numbers be 60%? Before lfr the raid numbers were lucky to be 20% just to even enter a raid let alone clear it. Raiding has always been a niche activity in wow. You can't just make these things up and say it is true. Nice try there though on revisionist history.

[nekobaka]

When you get expansions like WoD then no LFR does not justify the additional resources going into raiding. Even more so when non-raid content got cut to rush out the last raid tier followed by a long content drought.

There has to be a balance. It is arrogant to cut resources to non-raid content that has a higher participation rate than raiding with LFR included. That is Watcher for you though.

[A Chozo]

If blizzard wanted LFR gone it would be gone, But Legion is already showing they are backtracking on every single poor ass choice they made in WOD to LFR.

This would be a dream come true. MoP LFR had flaws, but it was better than WoD's and Cata's. Any source for this info?

[manypillars]

It pays for raid development in the sense that when you budget and design and your post launch content in such a way that non-raid content is consumed in a couple weeks even casually and devolves into little more than same quest different day you need something interesting enough to get people to stick around and fund you. It's unreasonable to expect people to hang around for two years on nothing but launch content and a handful of quests added after. The game is also at a point where you can't depend on enough people coming in to try the game as people get bored and leave- it's hit market saturation and you can't squeeze blood from a stone. Repurposing the content they're already making for the Favored Sons of Hazzikostas into something that can entertain people who can't or won't raid in the dev's preferred manner is a cheap way to try to get them to hang around and continue to pay for the new toys that are being made for the top raiders to enjoy.

[Shinv]

LFR doesn't pay for anything subs and expansion releases do. The notion that the devs had to put out an easy mode level of content for everyone to see everything when the game was still greatly successful is ridiculous. There is nothing concrete about LFR that maintains players subs longer. So even if it does increase participation it doesn't mean its self justified in the devs had to do it. If anything LFR is partially to blame for the very fast rotating door of players we have now hurting subs.

Its the social interactions I find that make people stay subbed to the game while experiencing the content. LFR kills the social vibe and turns the anonymous nature of it into and often unpleasant experience. One time I was in a good mood and was acting a bit silly and got kicked from an lfr for it, just chatting. Its really good to know the kind of behavior anonymous easy content has been enforcing.

The Devs should just focus on making a game they'd want to play. Ion's statement that LFR justifies making raids is ridiculous they weren't going to randomly scrap raid otherwise. Participation is a very fixed metric to look at when not looking at the history. Leveling in Vanilla, TBC took a lot longer to level the and game wasn't on rails. A lot of people didn't know was the best gear progression path to get into raids. Now gear is thrown at you so fast you have nowhere to go but raid. Stuff like that without LFR on its own is going to push participation for raids much higher. According to participation garrisons are fun/popular but we all know why that's not true for many. Its forced, LFR has also been very forced as means of progression with the legendary questline and a lack of world content do to otherwise.

The only reason I think anyone really likes LFR is because they just dislike playing with people. There the only ones I feel who must love WoD and managing the garrison. Only sales justifies whether a feature is better and on that LFR has no merits and is nothing but an over convenience.

[Jtbrig7390]

This would be a dream come true. MoP LFR had flaws, but it was better than WoD's and Cata's. Any source for this info?

At lease when it comes to loot LFR will be equal to how it was in MOP. I can provide a screen shot off the loot in a moment. I can't comment on difficulty.

- - - Updated - - -

LFR doesn't pay for anything subs and expansion releases do.

So your saying blizzard is lying...

[Deleted]

Taking out the overlap, I would guess that about 50-55% of the playerbase raids N/H/M.

ROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOFLMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
50-55% of the playerbase raiding?
Seriously dude whatever you are smokin'/takin' stop it! noaw!
make the numbers to around 5% at max and you have how many mayhaps raid.

[Shinv]

So your saying blizzard is lying...

Yes they will lie at times to sell something as being good when its not. CRZ, garrisons, ashran. There not saints and have and will do things to tilt participation metrics in there favor.

[Jtbrig7390]

Yes they will lie at times to sell something as being good when its not. CRZ, garrisons, ashran. There not saints and have and will do things to tilt participation metrics in there favor.

So your saying the multi-billion dollar company is lying about why LFR is around. Lying about budget and what its spent on....

You do realize thats illegal right? If there share holders go (Why the fuck are you spending $$$$$ on something that barely gets use) they CAN NOT lie about it.

The only time people like you believe anything they say is if it fits ur argument. When it doesn't you scream they are lying and ignore fact.

This would be a dream come true. MoP LFR had flaws, but it was better than WoD's and Cata's. Any source for this info?

This is tier from LFR, I can't comment on difficulty since it hasn't been tested yet. But tier and trickets are returning in Legion to LFR.

Edit: Tier in LFR come Legion.



If its too big say so and ill fix it.