No flying in 7.0 confirmed

[Dhrizzle]

Inferno, torment, it's the same shit. If you spent more time reading to understand instead of taking every opportunity to try and nitpick and twist intent, we probably wouldn't' even have an argument. You don't actually HAVE any real arguing points anymore, because they've all been refuted, so this is what you resort to. Welcome to ignore.

Just trying to figure out what you think you're talking about. I did have issues with D3 vanilla because it was far too easy in Nightmare. However monster power (introduced a few months into Vanilla D3) sorted that problem, and when I came back to finish the game it was a fairly simple matter to finish on Inferno difficulty without resorting to the AH (except to offload some crafting mats and grab some pieces for followers.)

[SirCowdog]

takes more time, also the land aritsts seem to be busy, as the map is rather small. i presume they are busy with raids and mabye something hidden we dont know about?

Probably more dungeons, given the heavy focus on them for Legion. Potentially more raid bosses as well. Ashran 2.0 maybe? As bad as it was in WoD, the core concept of an open world area with mixed PVE and PVP was a good one. It was just the implementation that was horrible.

[FelPlague]

Probably more dungeons, given the heavy focus on them for Legion. Potentially more raid bosses as well. Ashran 2.0 maybe? As bad as it was in WoD, the core concept of an open world area with mixed PVE and PVP was a good one. It was just the implementation that was horrible.

well there is the world pvp quests al lover

[WowIsDead64]

Be patient! All Blizzard want - is to give no flying a second chance! They simply wonder, if 10M of sub at release of WOD was accidental or it happened due to some changes, they've made, and this players could want, but this changes missed the mark. We all know, that all that players - were old players, who outgrown Wow. They THINK, they want Vanilla/TBC back, but it's nothing more, than nostalgia. They THINK, no flying will solve the problem, that they don't enjoy this game any more, but it won't. As I said many times, toy car isn't enough for them any more - they need real one. But Blizzard still can't believe it.

So. What I want to say. Blizzard WILL return flying IMMEDIATELY, if Legion will fail, as WOD failed. If 10M players will return in 7.0 and after one month it will be 5M again - Blizzard will immediately announce return of flying in 7.1. That's why they don't want to promise any dates. Not because they want to string you along. But because they don't want to promise anything to BOTH sides. Current plan - is to return flying in last patch of xpack most likely. They hope, they will be able to return more players, than lose, but it's just hope and they need backup plan, if it won't happen. If they will directly say, that flying will return in last patch of xpack, you will be upset and some players even won't buy Legion. I won't buy Legion in this case for example - in best case I'll continue playing WOD. I don't know yet... I depends on some IRL things. BUT! If Blizzard will have to return flying due to fail of Legion - no flyers will start to cry, that Blizzard brake their promises!

We are absolutely sure, that no flying won't help to return 10M of players in Legion. So. Don't ask for promises. You know. If Blizzard will promise you, that flying will return in last patch of xpack - they'll have to wait till last patch of xpack, even if they'll be able to return it immediately. Do you want it to happen?

What I suggest you - is best compromise, most pro-flyers will use. If you can't miss release of new xpack - buy it. Do patchfinder, cuz you most likely will have to do it anyway, even if flying will return in 7.1. But then unsub and wait for flying to be implemented. No fly - no sub.

And I'm too old to risk that way. If flying will return, when xpack will completely obsolete - then there is no reason for me to buy it at all. Legion won't provide any new things, WOD doesn't provide - it will only take things away. Flying, Garrisons... No. I'm perfectly fine with WOD. As I said, if Blizzard won't implement at least per-patch Pathfinder achievement - I will obtain Legion, when it will be included into base game for free, as it happened with WOD.

[SirCowdog]

Be patient! All Blizzard want - is to give no flying a second chance! They simply wonder, if 10M of sub at release of WOD was accidental or it happened due to some changes, they've made, and this players could want. We all know, that all that players - were old players, who outgrown Wow. They THINK, they want Vanilla/TBC back, but it's nothing more, than nostalgia. They THINK, no flying will solve the problem, that they don't enjoy this game any more, but it won't. As I said many times, toy car isn't enough for them any more - they need real one. But Blizzard still can't believe it.

So. What I want to say. Blizzard WILL return flying IMMEDIATELY, if Legion will fail, as WOD failed. If 10M players will return in 7.0 and after one month it will be 5M again - Blizzard will immediately announce return of flying in 7.1. That's why they don't want to promise any dates. Not because they want to string you along. But because they don't want to promise anything to BOTH sides. Current plan - is to return flying in last patch of xpack most likely. They hope, they will be able to return more players, than lose, but it's just hope and they need backup plan, if it won't happen. If they will directly say, that flying will return in last patch of xpack, you will be upset and some players even won't buy Legion. I won't buy Legion in this case for example - in best case I'll continue playing WOD. I don't know yet... I depends on some IRL things. BUT! If Blizzard will have to return flying due to fail of Legion - no flyers will start to cry, that Blizzard brake their promises!

We are absolutely sure, that no flying won't help to return 10M of players in Legion. So. Don't ask for promises. You know. If Blizzard will promise you, that flying will return in last patch of xpack - they'll have to wait till last patch of xpack, even if they'll be able to return it immediately. Do you want it to happen?

What I suggest you - is best compromise, most pro-flyers will use. If you can't miss release of new xpack - buy it. Do patchfinder, cuz you most likely will have to do it anyway, even if flying will return in 7.1. But then unsub and wait for flying to be implemented. No fly - no sub.

And I'm too old to risk that way. If flying will return, when xpack will completely obsolete - then there is no reason for me to buy it at all. Legion won't provide any new things, WOD doesn't provide - it will only take things away. Flying, Garrisons... No. I'm perfectly fine with WOD. As I said, if Blizzard won't implement at least per-patch Pathfinder achievement - I will obtain Legion, when it will be included into base game for free, as it happened with WOD.

Or they could just not dick around with it in the first place and make a design that wasn't engineered from every angle to waste your time and pad subscription profits. There's a novel idea.

[WowIsDead64]

But you should be ready for one thing. If Legion will fail, as WOD failed - Blizzard will most likely abandon it, as they abandoned WOD. Cuz they'll need to focus on developing xpack, that will suit current players - not ephemeral 10M of Vanilla/TBC fans. Cuz, as you understand, Legion is already doomed, as it won't bring changes, that are required to save game from dying - it's just WOD 2.0, second chance for same failed design.

[striderZA]

But you should be ready for one thing. If Legion will fail, as WOD failed - Blizzard will most likely abandon it, as they abandoned WOD. Cuz they'll need to focus on developing xpack, that will suit current players - not ephemeral 10M of Vanilla/TBC fans. Cuz, as you understand, Legion is already doomed, as it won't bring changes, that are required to save game from dying - it's just WOD 2.0, second chance for same failed design.

Saying Legion is WoD 2.0? Are you high?

[SirCowdog]

Saying Legion is WoD 2.0? Are you high?

He's not completely wrong. WoD was the test platform, Legion is the refined product. The only real mistake Blizzard is making is by trying to pad EVERY aspect of the game with time-gates and time wasters instead of just giving players what they want and making it accessible.
Legion has some VERY good concepts for gameplay in it. It will take less effort to adjust them to better suit the playerbase than it did in WoD.

They REALLY need to give it the Reaper of Souls treatment from D3. Pull out all the bullshit speedbumps and just make the game good. People will play it. They're more likely to retain players if the game is fun rather than trying to artificially pad the subscriptions by forcing players into wasting their time at every step.

[WowIsDead64]

Saying Legion is WoD 2.0? Are you high?

I mean, Blizzard haven't changed main direction of development in Legion even a little bit - it's still about IOT/TI-like no flying content and raids. Direction, that has already failed in WOD, as majority of players had nothing to do in game, except Garrisons. You should know it since Cata: Blizzard are experimenting with their playerbase - if content isn't working - xpack is being immediately abandoned and focus is being shifted to next xpack with another "experiment". I've already said it numerous of times - it's pointless waste of time. There is no point in trying to find some sneaky way to make outdoor content MMOish. Because truth is simple and obvious - players don't need MMO.

[Connll]

But you should be ready for one thing. If Legion will fail, as WOD failed - Blizzard will most likely abandon it, as they abandoned WOD. Cuz they'll need to focus on developing xpack, that will suit current players - not ephemeral 10M of Vanilla/TBC fans. Cuz, as you understand, Legion is already doomed, as it won't bring changes, that are required to save game from dying - it's just WOD 2.0, second chance for same failed design.

You are MOSTLY right. Yes, if Legion fail, chances are big that Blizzard might decide to abandon it and move on to the next xpac (as it did with WoD).

However, it is also possible that they decide that, after all, dollars are dollars and that to make money, you must invest money; thus resulting in the current dev team being replaced by new ones, willing to put effort in their games, and NOT willing to shove their "vision" down players throats.

I fear, however, that the chances for the second option to happen are not favorable.

[striderZA]

I mean, Blizzard haven't changed main direction of development in Legion even a little bit - it's still about IOT/TI-like no flying content and raids. Direction, that has already failed in WOD, as majority of players had nothing to do in game, except Garrisons. You should know it since Cata: Blizzard are experimenting with their playerbase - if content isn't working - xpack is being immediately abandoned and focus is being shifted to next xpack with another "experiment". I've already said it numerous of times - it's pointless waste of time. There is no point in trying to find some sneaky way to make outdoor content MMOish. Because truth is simple and obvious - players don't need MMO.

Whichever way you want to put it, not having flying makes the world more immersive and if you have been playing / paying attention on the beta at all (which I seriously doubt is the case), Legion has a lot more world content than WoD does, significantly more. The quality of instances and raiding has been excellent since MoP, and believe it or not, the new version of CMs add a large chunk of non-raiding endgame content.

It honestly sounds like you're either really salty about not having flying, or you've stopped playing the game some time ago and continue to spread your bullshit all over these forums; in which case, please go and play / do something else because very very little of what you're saying is contributing positively. Having read your "perfect WoW" post I can honestly not decide if your other posts are intended for trolling or whether you're just that delusional.

[Mafic]

Whichever way you want to put it, not having flying makes the world more immersive and if you have been playing / paying attention on the beta at all (which I seriously doubt is the case), Legion has a lot more world content than WoD does, significantly more. The quality of instances and raiding has been excellent since MoP, and believe it or not, the new version of CMs add a large chunk of non-raiding endgame content.

It honestly sounds like you're either really salty about not having flying, or you've stopped playing the game some time ago and continue to spread your bullshit all over these forums; in which case, please go and play / do something else because very very little of what you're saying is contributing positively. Having read your "perfect WoW" post I can honestly not decide if your other posts are intended for trolling or whether you're just that delusional.

Legion doesn't have more world content than WoD. In fact, the amount of quests in Legion is still tiny compared to say MoP.

And legion world quests are so short to complete but purposefully spread out to make travel time the biggest amount of time spent. Legion is simply a paint job for WoD ideas that failed like pruning, no flying, raid or die, garrisons, etc.

The devs are hoping players don't notice this, but the truth is there will be a backlash for pruning, order halls and no flying. Believe me.

- - - Updated - - -

I mean, Blizzard haven't changed main direction of development in Legion even a little bit - it's still about IOT/TI-like no flying content and raids. Direction, that has already failed in WOD, as majority of players had nothing to do in game, except Garrisons. You should know it since Cata: Blizzard are experimenting with their playerbase - if content isn't working - xpack is being immediately abandoned and focus is being shifted to next xpack with another "experiment". I've already said it numerous of times - it's pointless waste of time. There is no point in trying to find some sneaky way to make outdoor content MMOish. Because truth is simple and obvious - players don't need MMO.

Yeah a good example of this experimentation is them abandoning their badge system for the new RNG gearing system which most players hated in WoD. They are doubling down on that along with no flying.

It is going to take some devs losing some power for the current direction of the game to change IMVHO. More bean counter arm twisting is going to be necessary it seems.

[WowIsDead64]

Whichever way you want to put it, not having flying makes the world more immersive and if you have been playing / paying attention on the beta at all (which I seriously doubt is the case), Legion has a lot more world content than WoD does, significantly more. The quality of instances and raiding has been excellent since MoP, and believe it or not, the new version of CMs add a large chunk of non-raiding endgame content.

It honestly sounds like you're either really salty about not having flying, or you've stopped playing the game some time ago and continue to spread your bullshit all over these forums; in which case, please go and play / do something else because very very little of what you're saying is contributing positively. Having read your "perfect WoW" post I can honestly not decide if your other posts are intended for trolling or whether you're just that delusional.

I agree, that no flying can be immersive. I remember those old times, when you were walking from Thunder Bluff to Crossroads or from Crossroads to Ratchet on your own feet. Do you remember, how walk animation looks on your character? But... It's immersive for the first time only. When you do it for the 2nd, 3rd, 4th time - it's no longer immersive. So. Simple question. Why can't I unlock flying in leveling content, while it's still actual, after completing said content on one character, so I will be able to do this content on alts? Why? What's wrong with this compromise solution of problem? So, I guess, immersion argument is proven wrong. If no flying would be about immersion, Blizzard would allow us to unlock flying in content, we've already completed on one character. They rather want to sell more ground mounts in Cash Shop.

Also. I'm subbed now. I do Tanaan on my 6th alt. Why? Because I can fly there. And would want to continue playing the same way in Legion.

[SirCowdog]

Whichever way you want to put it, not having flying makes the world more immersive and if you have been playing / paying attention on the beta at all (which I seriously doubt is the case), Legion has a lot more world content than WoD does, significantly more.

The leveling content is undoubtedly as good as or better than WoD. But again, almost no one is requesting that flight be available during leveling. People are simply asking that flight be available for unlock at max level in 7.0, or at the VERY LEAST that blizzard announce plans for it in 7.1.

As for the immersion argument: This has been gone over ad nausem. You can not dictate to someone else what is immersive or fun. They're subjective concepts. While walking from point A to point B might be cool to you, our dragons and griffons forgetting how to use their wings is the most immersion breaking concept ever.

World quests at level cap are 90% travel and only 10% actually doing the objective. While it's cool that there are repetitive, random content like that, Blizzard REALLY needs to improve that ratio. Because after the first or second time, whatever "immersion" value getting to the objective by travelling through the game world had has been spent, and it just becomes tedium and time wasting. That kind of thing isn't going to hold up for 6 months while we wait on 7.1. Flight would at least mitigate the travel time a little bit, although having more to do along the way, or chaining world quests together close to each other would help as well.

[striderZA]

I agree, that no flying can be immersive. I remember those old times, when you were walking from Thunder Bluff to Crossroads or from Crossroads to Ratchet on your own feet. Do you remember, how walk animation looks on your character? But... It's immersive for the first time only. When you do it for the 2nd, 3rd, 4th time - it's no longer immersive. So. Simple question. Why can't I unlock flying in leveling content, while it's still actual, after completing said content on one character, so I will be able to do this content on alts? Why? What's wrong with this compromise solution of problem? So, I guess, immersion argument is proven wrong. If no flying would be about immersion, Blizzard would allow us to unlock flying in content, we've already completed on one character. They rather want to sell more ground mounts in Cash Shop.

Also. I'm subbed now. I do Tanaan on my 6th alt. Why? Because I can fly there. And would want to continue playing the same way in Legion.

That's why the flying achievement in WoD was account-wide, do all of the related things once and voila, you can fly on every single alt from when you first enter Draenor. I hardly think it has something to do with wanting to sell mounts on the cash shop, those mounts are going to sell regardless. The devs have hinted on several occasions that they're happy with the way that flying panned out in WoD, which means that a similar approach would probably be taken for Legion. I also think this approach is a fair compromise and probably the best way of handling the flying issue, I guess the only thing that could upset people is the lack of an ETA for the flying patch, but personally I don't mind it.

- - - Updated - - -

The leveling content is undoubtedly as good as or better than WoD. But again, almost no one is requesting that flight be available during leveling. People are simply asking that flight be available for unlock at max level in 7.0, or at the VERY LEAST that blizzard announce plans for it in 7.1.

As for the immersion argument: This has been gone over ad nausem. You can not dictate to someone else what is immersive or fun. They're subjective concepts. While walking from point A to point B might be cool to you, our dragons and griffons forgetting how to use their wings is the most immersion breaking concept ever.

World quests at level cap are 90% travel and only 10% actually doing the objective. While it's cool that there are repetitive, random content like that, Blizzard REALLY needs to improve that ratio. Because after the first or second time, whatever "immersion" value getting to the objective by travelling through the game world had has been spent, and it just becomes tedium and time wasting. That kind of thing isn't going to hold up for 6 months while we wait on 7.1. Flight would at least mitigate the travel time a little bit, although having more to do along the way, or chaining world quests together close to each other would help as well.

I agree that immersion dies down after you've gone through the content several times, which is why I think that the way flying was handled in WoD is a good approach: do a bunch of world quests, complete the story, do some other stuff and you can continue flying on your whole account. Not gamebreaking for me, personally, but I can understand how it upsets people, I just don't entirely understand the degree to which people get upset about stuff like this.

[CheeseSandwich]

Not gamebreaking for me, personally, but I can understand how it upsets people, I just don't entirely understand the degree to which people get upset about stuff like this.

Personally, I think it is about missed potential. We are missing out on another possible element to max level open world game play, (like floating islands and bases, fly warships like IC and DH), more training, racing and raising of flying mounts, (like Netherwing and cloud serpant races, and the potential customisation with the items there for players to make there own flying races), more vistas and mountain tops and exploration post ground play, more max level areas only reachable by flight, more stuff to get us out in the world and using flying like the warbringers, TLPD and Aeonaxx, more freedom to change your mind on a whim.

[WowIsDead64]

That's why the flying achievement in WoD was account-wide, do all of the related things once and voila, you can fly on every single alt from when you first enter Draenor. I hardly think it has something to do with wanting to sell mounts on the cash shop, those mounts are going to sell regardless. The devs have hinted on several occasions that they're happy with the way that flying panned out in WoD, which means that a similar approach would probably be taken for Legion. I also think this approach is a fair compromise and probably the best way of handling the flying issue, I guess the only thing that could upset people is the lack of an ETA for the flying patch, but personally I don't mind it.

But why should I wait till the end of xpack for flying to be unlocked, if leveling content will obsolete as soon, as everybody will reach endgame? And 7.0 content will obsolete as soon, as 7.1 (7.2, if 7.1 will be another selfie camera patch) will be released. You haven't answered. WHY?

And what I see in WOD - is ton of ground mounts being added as rewards. So it looks like Blizzard want this rewards to be relevant for as long, as possible. I.e. why would players earn 6 Stable mounts, Gronnlings, etc., if they won't use them or this mount will obsolete too fast?

[SirCowdog]

I agree that immersion dies down after you've gone through the content several times, which is why I think that the way flying was handled in WoD is a good approach: do a bunch of world quests, complete the story, do some other stuff and you can continue flying on your whole account. Not gamebreaking for me, personally, but I can understand how it upsets people, I just don't entirely understand the degree to which people get upset about stuff like this.

In addition to what CheeseSandwich said, there's the issue of Blizzard using Flight as a carrot to boost sales and subs, but withholding it indefinitely. Players aren't able to make an informed decision because there's not enough information, while Blizzard hints and hypes and then doesn't follow through. Holding flight hostage, as it were. It's dishonest.

That and the entire reasoning behind the delaying it just doesn't hold up under scrutiny. Instead of making the game better, they're making it worse by using flight this way, AND they're being dishonest about it. I would actually respect Blizzard more if they just came out and was honest about it. "Guys, you burn through the content too fast, so we have to do something to slow you down. Holding flight off until you complete pathfinder is one of the ways we do that."

I'd respect them, and I might still give Legion a shot to see if the rest of teh game made up for it. Right now I DON'T respect them and I'm not buying Legion or any of their other games. No Heart of the Swarm or Void, no hearthstone packs, no Heroes, no Overwatch.

[Mafic]

The funny thing is that players burning through content has to do with crazy ilevel scaling of gear. With legendaries in Legion...scaling NPCS will not make a difference with players running around with legendaries.

Power creep is what destroys immersion in any MMORPG.. Traveling mechanisms do not because they are not part of the combat system in most games.

[Deleted]

The funny thing is that players burning through content has to do with crazy ilevel scaling of gear. With legendaries in Legion...scaling NPCS will not make a difference with players running around with legendaries.

Power creep is what destroys immersion in any MMORPG.. Traveling mechanisms do not because they are not part of the combat system in most games.

This is exactly what I have said multiple times already, but anti-flyers don't seem to notice this elephant in the room: Gear trivialises content much more than flying could ever do.