Diversity isnt a bad thing, but...

[Pull My Finger]

*golfclap* way to go with those discussion skills.

I wouldn't wanna have a "discussion" with an agendist if it was the last thing to do on earth, thank you.

[Aggrophobic]

Okay, lets start by being civil on this topic, since the last one ended in a fire blazing itself into oblivion, lets start with this:

I am a white male straight player, I happen to be disabled with aspergers, and I also happen to be a pretty intimite gamer who likes to play some pretty challenging games, as long as they dont revolve around a tedious grind.

Am I represented in the gaming industry? Probably, do I actually "care" if I am represented?

Not really.

Heres the thing, pro divercity, anti divercity, no matter what side of the fence your on, the reality is, your a gamer, first and foremost, your interest is the game.

If a game has an interesting cast of vibrant individuals, or a cliche cast of predictable individuals, what matters, is why you care about it, you play it because you want to play it, it doesnt really matter what "steriotype" it appeals to or "category" it appeals to, becuase frankly, the notion of such things is irelevent in fiction.

So lets start with the whole, colours/sex/sexual prefference thing.

What makes a character interesting?

The truth is, its not the colour of their skin, the sex they represent, or the sexuality they stand for. It really doesnt matter if they are disabled, straight, gay, transgender, or anything else.

Before and above all else, what matters is, are they interesting as a person. If the answer is yes, then its not because of their appearence or cliche that they are interesting, its beause of their design.

The writers/actors/designers that bring these characters to life make them fun for you to enjoy, you feel like this char is some badass chick, or awesome dude, or some evil douche you come to love even if their also gay.

It doesnt matter what the "Sub-type" is, because that shouldnt "dominate" the character trope. Do you watch a vampire because they're a vampire? No, you watch them because of their character, who happens to be a vampire.

Do you watch a female char because shes portrayed as a strong, independant epic badass that can beat up men? No, you watch her because shes cool, and thats really what appeals.

Do you like the black guy because hes black? No, you like him because hes a badass.

Simply put, your reason for liking these people has "nothing" to do with their physical characteristics, disabilities, sex prefference or gender.

You are only interested in them BECAUSE, they are appealing to you, as a CHARACTER, in FICTION.

Now lets put that into perspective for a second...

Im disabled, mentally disabled at that, do I "want" to be represented in a video game?

No, I dont I really couldnt care if I was, frankly id rather not have someone try to represent my disability as if "someone gets it" because frankly only "I" get me, only "I" understand who "I" am and nobody will ever truly grasp what "I" want to a core T even if they can come close or make interesting chars based on my archetype.

I mean, as an example, Borderlands has a character who happens to be autistic, I didnt even realize that UNTIL someone brought it up in the game itself, and I didnt even 'care' when I learned it because I was too busy laughing at how epic she was and just fun to listen to and watch.

Seriously, the appeal is in what the PERSON is, not what their label, is.

Because frankly? A label? Be it a steriotypical white male blonde hero or a steriotypical strong female heroine, is boring.

Because if they dont have personality, depth, layers, and character development that makes them engaging to watch and grow with, then why do I actually 'care' about them?

See this is where the "issue" is, for alot of gamers, to all you pro represent folks out there.

What we dont really care about, is that very point, we dont 'care' if they are transgender or not, what we care about, is that they're an interesting character that HAPPENS to be transgender but that entire thing does NOT dominate their character development or depth.

And see thats... what gamers really want, and really care about that are anti-represent, its not that they dont like it, they just want people to actually write characters with "ACTUAL" personality, not just "they're gay, and you should like them or your a homophobe".

Sorry but that medium is "never" going to win people over, okay?

Because even the gay people can agree, thats not a good way to get people to 'care'.

So simply put, what we like about overwatch "IS" the divercity, but NOT because they're female, gay, straight, robot, or whatever.

But because they're AWESOME, and every one of them is fun to play and learn about.

So dont think were all homophobes in closets refusing to progress, we just dont want that thrust in our faces and be forced to "care" about it.

That was a lot of text just to say "I don't like gay people".
Good for you, now go hide in a closet.

[BreakerOfWills]

Games used to be full of the weirdest most absurd shit, until someone decided that the only people that liked games were white teenagers and everything started catering to them. Think youd get games like earthworm jim or donkey kong now? Course not, no brown haired white dude that the marketing department demands.

I see alottta people in this thread talking about diversity "where appropriate" unless youre makin a game about a gay chapter of the KKK there's no reason for it to be all white dudes. People been traveling this planet for ages, there were black people in Europe since before medieval times, vikings got everywhere, trade routes ran the length of Asia and into Africa.

Plus it isnt as if most of the writing people are talking about is good writing, these arent pillars of storytelling here. SO maybe a little diversity would make em try harder or at least make their generic paint by numbers storytelling less boring and predictable. Only so many times you can tell the same story and pretend youre being original.

[Xar226]

As I said before, this argument boils down into basically three camps:

1. The people who don't care what race/sexuality/whatever a character is,
2. The people who do care or feel empowered by seeing heroes who look like them,
3. The people who claim they don't care but are inexplicably against any efforts to satisfy group #2 even though group #1 claims they wouldn't care.

Group three is, frankly, people whose cognitive dissonance is so staggering that I have no interest in engaging with them. Group one is telling you to your face that they don't care as long as you make a good character. So why the fuck would anybody not aim for group two? You can make some people happy and have absolutely no ill-effects for the group of people who are telling you they don't care.

[Deleted]

Exhibit A of whiners of SJW.

Be honest with yourself dude, you are anti diversity and just using "kek graet charatrz" as a shield to hide behind.

Or, in other words, you can't refute my arguments.

If you can, explain to me,

If morpheus from the matrix, would have been hispanic. would it change the story at all?

Hint: It wouldn't.

Therefore, my points stand. You can't deny facts.

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I don't like real people because of their colour, in fact, I don't care about such things in real life
But when it comes to video games, it's different, I just don't want all the characters to look the same, even when it comes to their skin color or gender. Whenever I create a character in a game, I chose to create a female that is as white as possible because I think it looks cooler that way, I don't think that makes me an horrible person.

again. I dont care what race someone makes a character. Aslong as it fits with the lore, I dont care. If it is to pander to a specific demographic however, that's bad.

[Clone]

Or, in other words, you can't refute my arguments.

If you can, explain to me,

If morpheus from the matrix, would have been hispanic. would it change the story at all?

Hint: It wouldn't.

Therefore, my points stand. You can't deny facts.

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again. I dont care what race someone makes a character. Aslong as it fits with the lore, I dont care. If it is to pander to a specific demographic however, that's bad.

I can, but I just don't really feel like it. No time to read your ten page anti diversity rant.

[Pull My Finger]

As I said before, this argument boils down into basically three camps:

1. The people who don't care what race/sexuality/whatever a character is,
2. The people who do care or feel empowered by seeing heroes who look like them,
3. The people who claim they don't care but are inexplicably against any efforts to satisfy group #2 even though group #1 claims they wouldn't care.

Group three is, frankly, people whose cognitive dissonance is so staggering that I have no interest in engaging with them. Group one is telling you to your face that they don't care as long as you make a good character. So why the fuck would anybody not aim for group two? You can make some people happy and have absolutely no ill-effects for the group of people who are telling you they don't care.

Whee coginitive dissonance blah. You got #1 wrong by the way.

It's more like "I don't care as long as it isn't tokenism and you don't push your asshole politics onto me."

[Deleted]

It isn't though. It's only bad when it's poorly done. If game developers think that a game would be better with a more diverse cast, and do a great job of it, that's not a bad thing.



All of those items are part of a backstory though. Growing up in Ghana is a different experience than growing up in England. Being a part of a bi-racial household is different than being a part of a monoracial one. Discovering that your gay in your teens is different than having a straight sexual awakening.

The individual pieces don't make characters interesting, but those components can be and often are an integral part of the whole character.

Diveristy for the sake of Diversity is *ALWAYS* bad. You can not name a single game, that is popular, because they threw in diversity for diversitys sake.

Yes, growing up in ghana is different from growing up in England.
Same to the other points. It is different.

We are basically saying the same thing.

But I say, Only tie in the backstory to a character if the lore fits.
If it doesn't then don't.

again..

I really don't know how much simpler I can make this

I don't want diversity for diversitys sake.

No one is saying that overwatch is diverse for diversitys sake, because it isn't

It's diverse because it makes sense to be diverse.

But you responding to me saying ''Diversity for Diversitys sake is always bad though'',

With ''It isn't though. It's only bad when it's poorly done. If game developers think that a game would be better with a more diverse cast, and do a great job of it, that's not a bad thing.''

There is not a single game, where that could happend. There is not a single successful game, that is highly rated because of just that.

Again

Diverse games, where it makes sense for characters to be diverse = good

Games where characters are forced to be diverse because of shrieking harpies = bad.

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That was a lot of text just to say "I don't like gay people".
Good for you, now go hide in a closet.

Is this really what it comes down to.. You not being able to refute OP's argument so you just call him a homophobe?

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I can, but I just don't really feel like it. No time to read your ten page anti diversity rant.

If you took time you read it. You know.. you'd see it wasn't.

I noticed how you didn't respond to the comment I made about Morpheus either.

Is that because it basically disproved what you were trying to throw me down with.

Seriously.

Read next time.

[Clone]

If you took time you read it. You know.. you'd see it wasn't.

I noticed how you didn't respond to the comment I made about Morpheus either.

Is that because it basically disproved what you were trying to throw me down with.

Seriously.

Read next time.

You think I give a fuck about Morpheus?

Look at yourself dude, getting angry over diversity in a game set in a world where diversity makes sense, evident from this and the closed thread.

[Deleted]

You think I give a fuck about Morpheus?

Look at yourself dude, getting angry over diversity in a game set in a world where diversity makes sense, evident from this and the closed thread.

You're really slow... aren't you.

Again, you didn't read. It's clear that you didn't

Do you know why I brought up Morpheus?

To prove a point;

The character is not interesting because he's black.

Morpheus is interesting because of the story the character has.
The reasons why he is doing Y instead of X

His skin colour doesn't matter.

If you actually had taken the time to read my previous posts. You'd clearly see this.

Same applies to the characters of overwatch.

They are not interesting because they are from place Y,
They are interesting because of the stories they have.

[jellmoo]

Diveristy for the sake of Diversity is *ALWAYS* bad. You can not name a single game, that is popular, because they threw in diversity for diversitys sake.

I'm just gonna snip off the rest.

No. It. Isn't. Diversity can have many sources. It can be that the original concept for the game had a ton of diversity built in. It could be that a focus group gave the game team feedback saying that more diversity would make the game more appealing. It could be that the publisher wants additional diversity to cater to a target market. It could be that the Producer woke up one morning and said "WE NEED 34% MORE BLACK LESBIAN JEWS!"

The reason doesn't matter. At all. It's the end result that matters. It's how the game integrates it. It's hoe we, the players, feel as we encounter the cast. I can't name a single game because I don't know the backstory. I have no idea *why* the game does or does not feature a diverse cast. I only know whether or not I feel that it works.

The game could have the most diverse cast of characters for all the "right" reasons and it could suck and feel forced. Or the game could have a diverse cast of characters because the marketing team wants some token minorities that they can push, but it ends up being amazing.

The reason is not the issue, the implementation is.

[Deleted]

I'm just gonna snip off the rest.

No. It. Isn't. Diversity can have many sources. It can be that the original concept for the game had a ton of diversity built in. It could be that a focus group gave the game team feedback saying that more diversity would make the game more appealing. It could be that the publisher wants additional diversity to cater to a target market. It could be that the Producer woke up one morning and said "WE NEED 34% MORE BLACK LESBIAN JEWS!"

The reason doesn't matter. At all. It's the end result that matters. It's how the game integrates it. It's hoe we, the players, feel as we encounter the cast. I can't name a single game because I don't know the backstory. I have no idea *why* the game does or does not feature a diverse cast. I only know whether or not I feel that it works.

The game could have the most diverse cast of characters for all the "right" reasons and it could suck and feel forced. Or the game could have a diverse cast of characters because the marketing team wants some token minorities that they can push, but it ends up being amazing.

The reason is not the issue, the implementation is.

What do you mean with ''the implementation is''?

[jellmoo]

What do you mean with ''the implementation is''?

The "how" of it. The combination of character and story. How the flow of cast works. Does it feel natural? Does it feel like everything is there for a reason? Are the characters fleshed out in such a way that race, gender, sexuality, etc... are just a part of a greater collection of qualities that makes up the character.

The reason behind the diversity isn't important, even if it's just diversity for the same diversity. It's all about how they execute on it.

[Clone]

You're really slow... aren't you.

Again, you didn't read. It's clear that you didn't

Do you know why I brought up Morpheus?

To prove a point;

The character is not interesting because he's black.

Morpheus is interesting because of the story the character has.
The reasons why he is doing Y instead of X

His skin colour doesn't matter.

If you actually had taken the time to read my previous posts. You'd clearly see this.

Same applies to the characters of overwatch.

They are not interesting because they are from place Y,
They are interesting because of the stories they have.

You're really slow... aren't you.

Again, you didn't read. It's clear that you didn't

Do you know I don't give a fuck about Morpheus?

Or the point you are trying to prove?

Talk about how skin color doesn't matter all you want, when in fact it's just a shield for you to hide behind.

Edit: I will give you this though, skin color doesn't make a character more interesting, but I doubt you honestly believe that looking at the way you get so triggered over the topic.

[Pipboi]

I don't need to know the sexual preference of my Hero.
Blizzard says some of their heroes are homosexual, and that's ALL they need to say.
Right now, people can take that and assume that whatever hero they like is gay, if that's how they can most identify with their hero and enjoy their gameplay.

[Deleted]

You're really slow... aren't you.

Again, you didn't read. It's clear that you didn't

Do you know I don't give a fuck about Morpheus?

Or the point you are trying to prove?

Talk about how skin color doesn't matter all you want, when in fact it's just a shield for you to hind behind.

How about you try and read into what I am saying. Or actually read my previous posts instead of spouting nonsense.

It makes you look pathetic.

I wil try and make this as simple as possible for you;

I dont give a fuck, if lucio is black
I don't give a fuck that tracer is white
I don't give a fuck that torbjörn is swedish
I don't give a fuck that Hanzo is Japanese.
I don't give a fuck that Symmetra is Indian.

These characters, ARE NOT interesting based on their skin colour, or country of origin
They ARE however, interesting because of the story based around them, and what they have gone through.

That's the thing I've been saying over and over again.

And you people just keep going back to what colour someone skin has.
or what they'd like to shag.
it
does
not
matter.

What part of this is unnacceptable to you?

[Varitok]

The question isnt diversity OR interesting characters, you can have interesting and diverse characters. Plus jesus christ is no one else tired of the endless parade of brown haired white dudes? jesus.

Not really, I mean if the character has an interesting back story or just is a fun character who cares? I love diversity in games but don't do it for the sake of having a black/asian/indian etc character.

[Deleted]

The "how" of it. The combination of character and story. How the flow of cast works. Does it feel natural? Does it feel like everything is there for a reason? Are the characters fleshed out in such a way that race, gender, sexuality, etc... are just a part of a greater collection of qualities that makes up the character.

The reason behind the diversity isn't important, even if it's just diversity for the same diversity. It's all about how they execute on it.

Then it must have been miscommunication on my part.

Then we are in agreement, that is the flow of the cast does not work, and does not feel natural, and it does not feel like it is there for a reason.

Then it's a bad thing?

(not saying that overwatch has any of these problems, nor have i ever said that)

[Defect]

OW characters have no depth at all, they are pretty much goodies vs badies, the fact they need to bring up their sexual preferences is to hide that the characters are generic as hell. The fact Lucio is Black and a hip hop lover is pretty racist, just because hes Brazilian hes supposed to be like that? Just an example.

[Clone]

How about you try and read into what I am saying. Or actually read my previous posts instead of spouting nonsense.

It makes you look pathetic.

I wil try and make this as simple as possible for you;

I dont give a fuck, if lucio is black
I don't give a fuck that tracer is white
I don't give a fuck that torbjörn is swedish
I don't give a fuck that Hanzo is Japanese.
I don't give a fuck that Symmetra is Indian.

These characters, ARE NOT interesting based on their skin colour, or country of origin
They ARE however, interesting because of the story based around them, and what they have gone through.

That's the thing I've been saying over and over again.

And you people just keep going back to what colour someone skin has.
or what they'd like to shag.
it
does
not
matter.

What part of this is unnacceptable to you?

You are pathetic if you think skin color and country of origin is not part of of a character's background.