Does the 'LFR pays for Raid Development' argument make sense?

[Blayze]

Raids were always a niche activity, and yet the entire game revolves around them, and almost all non-raid content exists to funnel players into raiding in an attempt to keep the game from imploding. Be thankful the casuals are here to pick up the bill.

[WowIsDead64]

LFR: 70%
Normal:40%
Heroic: 25%
Mythic: 10%

I don't think, this numbers are % of playerbase - this numbers are % of players raiding. Cuz, as I remember, % of players raiding and PVP, provided by Blizzard themselves, were tiny. It usually looks like that. Don't remember exact numbers for LFR and Normal, but Heroic and Mythics definitely shouldn't be more, than 10% and 1%.

Also - SoO isn't good indicator of raid population, cuz any raid, that is being nerfed to the ground while content drought, will have 2x-4x bigger %.

According to WowProgress only 25K guilds do H/M now. How much ppl guild can have at average? 20ppl? 500k players - is 10% of playerbase. And only 20% of them, i.e. 2% of playerbase, do Mythic.

[Aleksej89]

I know it might seem strange, but some people just do not want to deal with raid schedules, guild applications and drama, long hours of wipes for progress...

LFR should be made completely optional, so that a dedicated raider can choose to completely ignore LFR and not slow himself down in gear progress.

But LFR does fill a crucial role in modern WoW - it enables anyone and everyone to see the raid content in it's basic form, which is pretty damn nice.

[Deleted]

The people that run LFR now? They *NEVER* raided before LFR. That's direct from Blizzard. You believe that without LFR people would stay subbed? Bullshit. Yes, right now LFR players will sub, run LFR until they're bored with it, unsub, and resub when the next LFR content is available. Without LFR they would likely unsub and STAY unsubbed. No reason to stay subbed or re-sub for zero content.

It's also a quote from Blizzard that the large raid tiers are justified by the existence of LFR.

Deal with it.

lol say what you will, but you are wrong. I love how you recognise what happens though. They play the lfr and quit. So, thats not the content that keeps them subbed. Legion may have better content for them.

You are free to give me that quote if it exists. I'm ok with smaller raids myself anyways.

[Coconut]

It makes sense more than ever after what we've seen in WoD.

The removal of tier items from LFR removed the incentive for casual players to pursue raid gear, which is one of the best ways to encourage medium to long term gameplay. With no alternative content to keep casuals invested from one week to the next, WoW dramatically lost 5 million players in less than a year.

This shows without a shred of doubt that Blizzard should either:

a. Spend fewer resources on raids and more resources on casual content, since good raid content by itself wasn't enough to keep people interested, even when the raids were fresh, or
b. Try to encourage casuals to raid again by reintroducing tier items and/or appealing transmogs to LFR. This is preferable, because raiding and raid loot is a tried and tested system designed to encourage long term play, while any new kind of casual content they may come up with is risky and may or may not stick.

But yeah, I would say the argument should be pretty much viewed as fact at the moment.

[Queen of Hamsters]

MoP had LFR throughout just fine.

People blame it for shit that ALWAYS comes down to NOT ENOUGH content. So their logical conclusion, is to remove content from a huge chunk of players...

[Jtbrig7390]

LFR should be made completely optional, so that a dedicated raider can choose to completely ignore LFR and not slow himself down in gear progress.

So LFR shouldn't have any rewards then?

Thats the problem, there is ZERO content in WoW that is required. Every single thing is optional and because "You" can't control yourself "you" want to neuter others content.

I don't ask for loot to be nerfed or removed from Mythic Raiding so don't ask for it to be in LFR.

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They play the lfr and quit..

Maybe you shouldn't speak for everyone. I only did LFR in MOP and stayed subbed and I been subbed for a year now in WOD.

I did abit of NM on my main but all alts are LFR only (Besides my DK been doing ashan on him for the past 24hrs).

[Eapoe]

Ummm no it wouldn't and blizzard has once again even said so.

Less then 0.1% of the playerbase in TBC seen Sunwell, Less then 10% of the playerbase killed a boss in ICC. Removing LFR does not bump the number for NM+ it lowers the number of raiders overall (Since LFR is raiding).

People don't just go fine fuck it ill do NM+, No they just not do the content or leave. This is why LFR was made, because blizzard can no longer make the bulk of there endgame content only to be seen by 1% of the playerbase.

The day a queable raid mode (LFR or whatever) dies then Raiding itself will go with it.

Want to know why LFG hasn't replaced LFR...look at the community. I can confirm as someone who is in the Legion Beta that Tier/trickets have returned to LFR. Want to know why... Because of the community.

This thread is a perfect example on why the community can't be trusted with the LFG system. So there has to be a system there that lets people see the content without dealing with the trash that go's on in LFG.

You also use the xpac where grinds for gear and needing to do previous raids to even be able to enter current play a factor. How was raid participation in Wrath, where there was 10/25, followed by 10/25 normal/heroic? You know, the xpac where anyone could enter at any time and still not be a total hindrance to the raid group since they didn't do ToC before ICC, or do Naxx before Ulduar.

[stomination]

At lease when it comes to loot LFR will be equal to how it was in MOP. I can provide a screen shot off the loot in a moment. I can't comment on difficulty.

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So your saying blizzard is lying...

Most companies do. They tell you something because it promotes their product and makes it look like they made a horrible decision. After all they still say everyone of their expansions was the greatest thing ever.

[Deleted]

So LFR shouldn't have any rewards then?

Thats the problem, there is ZERO content in WoW that is required. Every single thing is optional and because "You" can't control yourself "you" want to neuter others content.

I don't ask for loot to be nerfed or removed from Mythic Raiding so don't ask for it to be in LFR.

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Maybe you shouldn't speak for everyone. I only did LFR in MOP and stayed subbed and I been subbed for a year now in WOD.

I did abit of NM on my main but all alts are LFR only (Besides my DK been doing ashan on him for the past 24hrs).

Sigh... this is more for the other guy i quoted, but this thread is about the argument beeing contradictory and it is.

I also do LFR in my alts. Unlike casuals on these forums who think raiders only play one character and log in only for raid nights.

But i despise the content. It's not fun at all because its not raiding. Its zerging. I would rather do different kinds of content that are actually satisfying. LFR isn't needed for anything... but oh well.

[Jtbrig7390]

How was raid participation in Wrath,

Less then 10% ever killed LK and less then 20% ever killed a boss in ICC.

This has been explained already and in many threads. Feel free to go look up the numbers. Thanks to LFR that number is now 50%+.

[A Chozo]

At lease when it comes to loot LFR will be equal to how it was in MOP. I can provide a screen shot off the loot in a moment. I can't comment on difficulty.

Glad to know they re-introduced actual LFR rewards in the beta. The dificulty in LFR is always tricky, because of leechers/afk'ers. If blizzard introduced a way to actually gauge participation, they could up LFR's dificulty. Nowadays, the healers can carry the whole group, healing through the fire, and the minimal DPS occurring is enough to kill the boss.

LFR can be better, and it's the raiding model that is suporting raiding. Without it, the participation would be abysmal. It worked in WotLK and before, but nowadays, the game is past the production cycle - any improvement, especially regarding their current competition, would be well-met.

[Queen of Hamsters]

LFR should be made completely optional, so that a dedicated raider can choose to completely ignore LFR and not slow himself down in gear progress.
[/B]
.

I am a dedicated Heroic/Mythic raider, I ignore the shit out of LFR on my main. IF I do LFR, it's because I want to. It's completely optional already.

Hyperbole aside, LFR doesn't prevent anyone from being social, it doesn't prevent anyone from pursuing proper raiding, it doesn't take away prestige or anything really from higher difficulty raiding. If you (generally speaking) feel that LFR somehow prevents you from enjoying the game as you'd like, the problem isn't with the game's features.

The devs themselves said that LFR justifies their work put into raiding content, and since raiding has been pretty damned good for the past 2 expansions, that's enough reason to keep it in my book.

[Jtbrig7390]

But i despise the content. It's not fun at all because its not raiding. Its zerging. I would rather do different kinds of content that are actually satisfying. LFR isn't needed for anything... but oh well.

Come Legion there is other content you can do. Also ya LFR is kinda needed and even said so by blizzard.

Also it is only your opinion LFR isn't raiding. Opinions are not facts.

[Darkeon]

[...]
Edit: Tier in LFR come Legion.

Image

If its too big say so and ill fix it.

This makes me happy.

Now, it only needs to have it's difficulty adjusted back to MoP levels to manage to keep me engaged and I'll be an happy camper!

[Jtbrig7390]

Glad to know they re-introduced actual LFR rewards in the beta. The dificulty in LFR is always tricky, because of leechers/afk'ers. If blizzard introduced a way to actually gauge participation, they could up LFR's dificulty. Nowadays, the healers can carry the whole group, healing through the fire, and the minimal DPS occurring is enough to kill the boss.

LFR can be better, and it's the raiding model that is suporting raiding. Without it, the participation would be abysmal. It worked in WotLK and before, but nowadays, the game is past the production cycle - any improvement, especially regarding their current competition, would be well-met.

To be 100% clear everything is subjective to change with a beta. So if they remove that loot don't blame me But ya I hope the difficulty at lease is on par with MOP again.

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This makes me happy.

Now, it only needs to have it's difficulty adjusted back to MoP levels to manage to keep me engaged and I'll be an happy camper!

Yep that was the first thing I checked when I got into the beta.

I am a happy camper because as it stands Legion could be my most fav time in WoW even over wrath.

[HuxNeva]

There are many ways to interpret the same numbers. One of the simplest is 40% raid, 30% run LFR exclusive, 30% never set foot in a raiding zone. Mah ny other are possible.
If LFR didn't exist today, who knows what the percentage changes would be. My personal guess is that raiding participation would go up, but we will not know.
Does LFR make raid funding easier to justify? Absolutely. Would there be raids without LFR? Absolutely
As I said, I'm not against LFR at all. I think making raids accessible a group of lesser trained, not voice coordinated nor pre-vetted players that can get into it without schedule commitment is just fine. I actually think LFR as implemented at the very beginning wasn't too bad a thing.
I am against the current implementation of LFR, which I do think is detrimental to the game.
Take away all consequences (who cares what you think of me, we'll never meet again), reward irrespective of outcome or achievement ('Determination', worst idea ever, I don't care if it takes a few wipes, we'll get the drops eventually and I'm tabbed out to youtube anyways), and you get the cesspool LFR that exists today. This is what LFR is tuned for now: 5-10 know what they are doing, 10-20 are clueless but trying, 10-15 are tabbed out/afk/auto-attacking and 2-5 are pulling every trick in the book trying to troll wipe the raid. Blizzard needs to solve the reputation/social issues before they can solve LFR.
I can believe people like to see the raids, no problem. I can't believe anyone would stay subscribed afterwards because of LFR. Everyone, including all the 'casuals', which are the ones most suffering under this, absolutely hates what LFR has become.

[Binko]

I know it might seem strange, but some people just do not want to deal with raid schedules, guild applications and drama, long hours of wipes for progress...

Not just that. But I don't play games so that I can follow orders, do what I'm told or be chastised.

Blizzard needs to invest serious effort into making LFR a better and more rewarding experience.

In SoO my wife and I stayed subbed and did a LOT of LFR because of the cool trinkets and class set armor. In WoD we hardly did any because the rewards were worse than you could get in Tanaan. And we soon unsubbed.

[judgementofantonidas]

I'm just staying stop saying 'LFR pays for raids', as that argument is false.

No. It doesn't. It never did. LFR has only ever been a placebo for those who choose not to excel at the game. Well, not even be average at the game. Raiding is the devs dream. We are just allowed to live it with them.

[Jtbrig7390]

No. It doesn't. It never did. LFR has only ever been a placebo for those who choose not to excel at the game. Well, not even be average at the game. Raiding is the devs dream. We are just allowed to live it with them.

And yet blizzard disagree's and has said as much....