[Legion][Raiding][DPS][Rogue] I Know, I Know, but I would still like your OPINION!

[Lionpaw]

https://twitter.com/WarcraftDevs/sta...03817071190016 Assassination has some pretty potent aoe options such as blood sweat, fok and poison vial from the artifact that are on par with Bladeflurry. Blade flurry isn't the end all of aoe otherwise rogues would be the undisputed masters in all AOE situations. Different classes and specs can do things differently and have similar results. We'll just have to wait and see how balancing pans out.

Well I think this sums it up for all the people advocating that Sub needs to be best ST Rogue spec because of AoE...

I think it's safe to say that


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[Deleted]

in what world would a spec that has blade flurry EVER have strong single target? why would sub, a spec that has garbage aoe, not have the strongest single target? how about u use ur head and realize that those are the intended outcomes for those specs.

and again, they never said they want to balance aoe. and again, proof. it honestly boggles my mind how u can believe they want to balance aoe with legion sub as it is now. literally that whole spec's role in an aoe situation is to get quick cp and focus down 1 target

Blade Flurry is pretty shit at the moment.

Anyway your info is based on waht you THINK and WANT where other people have actually tried it out for themselves. so yeah

[kalaratic]

Blade Flurry is pretty shit at the moment.

Anyway your info is based on waht you THINK and WANT where other people have actually tried it out for themselves. so yeah

i have beta...

[Deleted]

i have beta...

Then you know Blade Flurry is bad.

[elfporn]

I strongly disagree after playing the specs for myself. This along with the stated design goal of removing niches paints a different picture.

They never stated that the wanted to remove design niches, they have been walking back on homogenization and focusing on better class fantasy, those are not the same things.

[kalaratic]

Then you know Blade Flurry is bad.

in what way is it bad? it allows u to hit literally every enemy near u for only 10% energy reduction with the artifact

[elfporn]

Well I think this sums it up for all the people advocating that Sub needs to be best ST Rogue spec because of AoE...

I think it's safe to say that


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a quote saying they want to make rogue aoe competitive for all specs from.....november 2015....does not reflect their actions for the past 6 months of alpha/beta

As i said originally, with certain legendaries, and a certain talent loadout, it may be possible to do enough aoe that your raid leader doesn't force you to swap to outlaw or assassination. But that is not the way it should be, sub shouldn't have to jump through all these hoops to have some semblance of aoe/cleave, and we damn sure shouldnt be forced to play another spec, particularly with the way artifacts work.

[Lionpaw]

in what way is it bad? it allows u to hit literally every enemy near u for only 10% energy reduction with the artifact

@WarcraftDevs Will Assassination and Subtlety AoE be made equivalently powerful with Outlaw/Blade Flurry?

Blizzard's Response: Yes, we plan to make all Rogue specs competitive in AoE situations.

[elfporn]

Then you know Blade Flurry is bad.

it's not bad, you hit every single target in range for 35% of all damage you do at a cost of 10% energy regen. No target limit, completely passive.

Any class in the game would praise the lord hallelujah if they had blade flurry.

- - - Updated - - -

@WarcraftDevs Will Assassination and Subtlety AoE be made equivalently powerful with Outlaw/Blade Flurry?

Blizzard's Response: Yes, we plan to make all Rogue specs competitive in AoE situations.

carefully read that response and think about what it means. It's not an unequivocal "yes"

[kalaratic]

@WarcraftDevs Will Assassination and Subtlety AoE be made equivalently powerful with Outlaw/Blade Flurry?

Blizzard's Response: Yes, we plan to make all Rogue specs competitive in AoE situations.

literally none of that answers my question. a tweet from fucking NOVEMBER of last year doesn't mean shit, things change. blade flurry is hands down one of the best aoe spells in the game, period. get the fuck over it u pirate retards, you will NEVER have the best single target

Infracted.

[Mascotte]

literally none of that answers my question. a tweet from fucking NOVEMBER of last year doesn't mean shit, things change. blade flurry is hands down one of the best aoe spells in the game, period. get the fuck over it u pirate retards, you will NEVER have the best single target

No-one asks for being the best single target as Outlaw.
There is a big gap between being the best single target and the crap Combat rogue ST was in WoD..

[Lionpaw]

get the fuck over it u pirate retards

I love you so much. I'm in tears laughing.

Infracted.

[elfporn]

I love you so much. I'm in tears laughing.

resorting to memes when refuted. stay classy bro.

[Lionpaw]

resorting to memes when refuted. stay classy bro.

No no, don't get me wrong. I'm genuinely amused. I literally laughed at your response. lol

[Deleted]

https://twitter.com/WarcraftDevs/sta...03817071190016

Well this is long before current Subtlety fiasco, they definitely had Nightblade multidot in mind, but thats dead, so yea... at this moment Subtlety would really need a change in either AoE or ST to be competitive with both specs (even with legendaries in mind).

But I find this talk funny too, because people tend to overrate Blade Flurry, hyperboles are spreaded like cancer and usually by people who never raided. In fact this thread is full of shit again, but Im not going that deep again. I just wanted to say that AoE is only as strong as encounters make it and certain encounters usually favour only certain types of AoE.

It seems to me that Blizzard AoE "balancing" (lets call it like that despite theres not such a thing, ever) is made like: here you have 5 dummies, go AoE, end up doing 100k DPS over 5 mins. Now Legion Subtlety multidot tester (who just logged over from his other caster main char) goes on same dummies, ends up doing 95k DPS within same time range, but this time with more damage into primary target. Everything OK. Fits class fantasy, done for today, right? *gets back to his class* This would also explain why things like Bladestorm, Fire and Brimstone and even Blade Flurry (even when its borderline retarded to put it in same row as these) could exist for so long. They dont seem OP at first glance.

However, as you may have already noticed, we completely ignored damage distribution of all these abilities, what is not just important thing to look at, but once you raid high enough, it is the only thing you look at. Right? I dont give a fuck that Blade Flurry is the second most OP AoE in the game, if theres no opportunity to use it. Fire and Brimstone and Blade Flurry are the two most retarded AoE abilities but they shine only on huge packs, while they suck dick at 2-3 targets and are surpassed by almost every other cleave ability you can find ingame. Now I know most of you already saw a lock go all balls big dick on Tyrant or Iskar trash, rogue spiking some pack or even you masturbate to Iskar speedkills with ring abuse, but all of this means nothing. This is just for flexing at pleb, doesnt mean class should be punished neither warrants a nerf.

Only thing that matters when comparing AoE is how much you can contribute while content is alive. Everything what happens after last boss is dead, is irrelevant and as good as it didnt happen at all. Now lets look at AoE contribution options in last tier: Subtlety - none, Assassination - none, Combat - some cleave on Assault, carry for very early Kilrogg Visions, good at Iskar, good at Xhul, semi-good on Mannoroth (nullified by any warlock/warrior though). So where exactly is this OP Blade Flurry? Used on 2 bosses and very bad alternative for third? Actually Mannoroth is perfect example why Blade Flurry is just fairytale for non-raiding plebs.

So now after we defined current state of rogue AoE, lets talk Legion-
-Blade Flurry is a bit stronger because poisons are gone
-Blade Flurry damage distribution is more linear, because Insights are gone
-We lose FM damage (trinket), so any CP pooling for some burst is gone
-energy regeneration is absolute fucking crazy, so impact of energy pooling is gone too
Actually, entire Outlaw damage distribution outside CDs is as linear as Call of Duty campaign, leaving no control to player (press "F" to cleave). And as far as I remember, preparing Insight and pooling resources for each Blade Flurry opportunity was essential. I seriously doubt that with these things gone, Blade Flurry is at least as strong as it is now (already mediocre when it comes to killing stuff).

Now you can say, but Blade Flurry depends on Combat single target! Yes it does, but Combat single target is not that bad, in fact, for Blade Flurry, Combat single target is the best thing you can get. For the best description of Combat single target, take CoP Shadow priest, thats almost the exact thing. Without legendary ring, CoP would be the most OP spec across the board, obliterating everyone by 5%. You can time your cleave at any time and be sure that you will be doing enough damage without using big CDs. Which is bringing us to the big one - single target.

I know most of you think that Combat single target is shit because we have Blade Flurry. But thats wrong. There has been zero evidence of Blade Flurry being OP in raids (as I have just demonstrated and as you can check on any logs on earth), instead, Combat has been very strong in single target many times. And theres a big chance it will be strong again, as Ill show you. Its the same thing as with AoE, damage distribution. Majority of current classes work the same, big boy burst on pull, then jerk around for x minutes, proceed to burst again after. Combat is different, its CDs are hardly giving any burst at all, its burst comes from the Insight cycle instead, which uptime and timing is almost fixed. It has shit synergy with BL, trinkets, ring, hell its the complete opposite of how the game is played nowadays (endless amplifying of burst windows). Thats why it fails and is "balanced" only on very low iLv. And they cant do anything with it, because it would break the low level game (arenas, CMs, entry gameplay). This is why all of this Insight cancer had to go, as Ive foretold long ago (trust me, I would really like to be wrong for once).

With Legion however, as you already know, PvP problem is gone, Insight problem is gone and Outlaw works just like any other class. This opens very solid opportunity for single target to be tuned properly. In fact, Outlaw now works better than Subtlety, because Subtlety now works very similarly to todays Combat. No clear burst, no clear timing, in fact you dance so much, that you will not have any real burst at all. Now I really would like to be wrong in this one, because I like new Subtlety and I want to play it eventually. But I dont think it can work without extensive babysitting from Blizzard (aand go look at our feedback topic). To close all of this - dont think Blade Flurry will be the reason to play Outlaw. Outlaw will still top excessive trash packs, but Assassination AoE looks very interesting and may end up competitive (even OP, depending on how far will bleeds jump) in scenarios where it matters. Subtlety AoE atm is not competitive at all and theres no boss where you could even try it (except Shattrath dummies). But I believe from Blizzard perspective all specs have a way to AoE, so they accomplished their goal, even if anyone who ever raided looks at them and is like "what the fuck is that shit?".

TL;DR: I dont know what will be the alpha spec this time, but if you piece all these puzzles together, its far from "hurr durr Subtlety single target king".

[Leyre]

On beta Assassination does sick ass damage

SSSSSHHHHHHH you want every Blizz Dev to nerf Assa???

[elfporn]

Well this is long before current Subtlety fiasco, they definitely had Nightblade multidot in mind, but thats dead, so yea... at this moment Subtlety would really need a change in either AoE or ST to be competitive with both specs (even with legendaries in mind).

With Legion however, as you already know, PvP problem is gone, Insight problem is gone and Outlaw works just like any other class. This opens very solid opportunity for single target to be tuned properly. In fact, Outlaw now works better than Subtlety, because Subtlety now works very similarly to todays Combat. No clear burst, no clear timing, in fact you dance so much, that you will not have any real burst at all. Now I really would like to be wrong in this one, because I like new Subtlety and I want to play it eventually. But I dont think it can work without extensive babysitting from Blizzard (aand go look at our feedback topic). To close all of this - dont think Blade Flurry will be the reason to play Outlaw. Outlaw will still top excessive trash packs, but Assassination AoE looks very interesting and may end up competitive (even OP, depending on how far will bleeds jump) in scenarios where it matters. Subtlety AoE atm is not competitive at all and theres no boss where you could even try it (except Shattrath dummies). But I believe from Blizzard perspective all specs have a way to AoE, so they accomplished their goal, even if anyone who ever raided looks at them and is like "what the fuck is that shit?".

TL;DR: I dont know what will be the alpha spec this time, but if you piece all these puzzles together, its far from "hurr durr Subtlety single target king".

Wall of text crits you for over 9000....

You're dead on about combat, and how blizz has shit on rogues again.

What i don't understand is how you've come to your conclusions about legion sub? no burst? no timing? are you playing the right class?

Assassination is definitely looking great, and sub is too (though we're still bitching to get shit just right via feedback), but everything i read about outlaw is that it's just dogshit right now, you get your true bearing rolls and your dreadblade curse and goto town, then stick your thumb up your ass until you can go ham again.

[Deleted]

If you burst every 15-20 sec, from maths PoV it cant be called burst. Its closer to dumping all energy back then when energy mattered.

[Deleted]

Assassination > sub on beta. No question

[Mcbenchpress]

I'm fairly certain Legion Sub is going to end up like Dragon Soul Sub. Mathematically better than Combat/Mutilate, but no one will bother playing it.