Does the 'LFR pays for Raid Development' argument make sense?

[Jtbrig7390]

They are I agree that all those examples show a flaw in the current end game but lets say a person only lfrs. Can they not complete almost half their gearing process in the first week by dropping coins in it??

If RNG is on there side they can fully gear in a week. But this has been the case with gearing in Wow since its release and isn't exclusive to LFR.

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I don't see how you wouldn't.. you would be coin capped by the time lfr comes out.

The Coin isn't a 100% chance on loot...

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Once again lfr will be around before any TJ or timeless isle stuff come into affect for the year long drought. Stop focusing on just the last patch.

Ok then once again in wrath TOC dungeon made Naxx,OS,EoE useless and then ICC dungeons made Uld/TOC useless.

They even added valor to dungeons as a reward and you could buy tier gear.

[Echo of Soul]

LFR and the legendary quest lines have kept the raids at a very high participation percentage. If it's something people enjoy doing is kinda irrelevant, the question is if Blizzard has to justify the creation of raids by showing hard proof that it's an activity a lot of people are participating in. If so, LFR and the legendary questlines absolutely "pays" for raid development.

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Ok then once again in wrath TOC dungeon made Naxx,OS,EoE useless and then ICC dungeons made Uld/TOC useless.

They even added valor to dungeons as a reward and you could buy tier gear.

I think this made raiding less appealing since you didn't have to raid. You could gear up in different ways, although it usually took a bit longer than raiding.

[Jtbrig7390]

I think this made raiding less appealing since you didn't have to raid. You could gear up in different ways, although it usually took a bit longer than raiding.

Raiding has always been less appealing and that's why the percent who did it has always been super small.

[Messinna]

lets make this short : with or without your frustration ( im talkink with person who start another threat " im so piss of of LFR " lets make a another thread about it maybe just maybe someone will say " hey this guy must hve a point " no LFR will be in game if you like it or not .

[psyquest]

LFR almost doubles the number of people that see the Raid content.
If LFR did not exist a lot of people would not be interested in subscribing at all after a major content patch has arrived, since they are not interested in joining guilds.

I do not know does LFR actually pay for the whole raid development, but it is definitely a huge chunk of profit.
Especially considering that "dumbing down" the raid is much easier and takes a tiny bit of effort from blizzard.

false. blizzard subscription numbers and participation in raid happened when there was NO lfr.

[primalmatter]

Raiding has always been less appealing and that's why the percent who did it has always been super small.

Yet we see people clamoring for lfr to supersede most of the non-raid content. This seems a contradictory stance to hold.

Take a look at what the class order hall set offers for game play.

Helm - simple Order Hall quest
Wrists - Recruit 6 Champions for Order Hall.
Gloves - Honored with Nightfallen.
Leggings - Revered with 3 Broken Isles reputations.
Feet - Defeat the final boss of every Legion Dungeon.
Chest - Complete your Class Order Campaign.
Belt - Earn 50,000 Artifact Power.
Shoulders - Exalted with the Nightfallen.

Why should LFR make all of that nothing more then a transmog set?

[Deleted]

I honestly have a hard time believing that LFR is what keeps people subbed. Don't most people who just LFR do it once and then unsubscribe if they no longer feel the subscription is worth it?

[lolpve]

This whole debate only exposes how badly Blizzard need to diversify WoW endgame away from just raiding, especially since they have killed off the competitive pvp community.

There should be extremely hard world, 5 man, and solo content that rewards equivalent gear to raiding, and the legendary chain should not be tied exclusively to raids. Let raiding be for people who enjoy raiding, the same way that arena is for people who enjoy competitive pvp.

[Jtbrig7390]

Why should LFR make all of that nothing more then a transmog set?

That question can be asked about anything in WoW.

Why should Mythic gear make everything else just a tmogset. Why should pvp gear make everything a tmog set.

Players will progress to the point where they stop this is a known fact. For some they stop at Mythic Raiding for others its NM or HM and for some its LFR. Hell some don't even do LFR and just stop after they finish the leveling.

More options is a good thing and always has been. Legion is letting you pick your progression path and roll with it. For some that path ends with getting the Class Hall set for others its NM raiding.

I am not going to claim to know what everyone wants to do, I only know what I want and what I enjoy. When I no longer enjoy WoW I stop playing, I don't request blizzard to make anything catered to me. I do state if X doesn't change then I won't play. But that is a simple statement.

The difference between me and others is me having fun in WoW does not come at the cost of others fun. Unless your fun comes from shitting on the fun of others.

There is a small percent that feel the game should be catered to them and no one else. If giving others options comes at the cost of those subs then so be it. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. WOD is proof your only good content can not be raiding.

From what I see Legion is doing just that. Everyone now has a path of progression they can chose and it will come at the cost of that small percent being pissed or unsubbing.

You can't have a niche endgame and expect more then the niche to stay or even play it. World of Warcraft is past its prime and blizzard has made a choice. Now lets see how that choice pans out.

(This post was longer then I expected so mybad lol).

Ontopic: At this point I feel we are way offtopic, So my simple answer to the question given is this.

Yes LFR funds raiding, blizzard has even said it does.

[Ehrenpanzer]

You do realize blizzard disagree's with you right?

I mean they have made the statement more then once and have the data to back it up as well. Those who disagree are fools its that simple.


Once again BLIZZARD the company who makes the game you play has said LFR pays for Raiding. They will no longer drop bulk of there budget into content only a small percent will see that's a fact.

Oh sure.. and the constantly plummeting subs since Wrath only serves to reinforce their awesome cosmic knowledge about exactly what the majority of the playerbase wants ^_^

[Tuesdays]

LFR and mythic both are anti-friend gaming, people in this game really want friends, so they stick with crappy casual guilds who do normal and LFR.

Worst part is mythic and heroic is supposed to be for tightly tuned groups, yet you can easily buy a carry, so whats the point?

[Jtbrig7390]

Oh sure.. and the constantly plummeting subs since Wrath only serves to reinforce their awesome cosmic knowledge about exactly what the majority of the playerbase wants ^_^

Its almost like different people like different things. Also we was losing subs in TBC and Classic want to know the difference???? In TBC/Wrath Wow was bringing in more players then it was losing so there was always a net gain.

Come last quarter of wrath that changed. Do you really think at some point WoW at 100million subs total at once? That is nearly 1/3 of the population of the USA.

No matter what blizzard does someone will be pissed. The goal is to keep the amount pissed off low.

[Fenixhart]

No, it does not.

It removes the carrot on a stick. People would sub and join guilds to experience the content and be subbed for many months to see it.

Now, they press a button and they are done. /unsub

So, no i think the argument is flawed and it think not only does it hurt the game's progression systems and social incentives as it grosses less money to blizzard on the long run.

The part where your reasoning is flawed is that you assume people are using LFR as an altertantive to Normal raiding.

When the reality is that LFR is being used by people who would otherwise not be raiding or have no intention of going to Normal or beyond regardless.

[Jtbrig7390]

The part where your reasoning is flawed is that you assume people are using LFR as an altertantive to Normal raiding.

When the reality is that LFR is being used by people who would otherwise not be raiding or have no intention of going to Normal or beyond regardless.

Personally I say its a mix of both (Since there is many players). I myself have done LFR and NM in WOD on my main but LFR only on my alts. I will not be doing NM+ come Legion unless there is a item I want and then ill just buy my way to it via gold.

In MOP I did not do flex besides like 3 boss's 3 times and in Cata I left and returned due to LFR.

This is my experience and as long as raiding is a endgame (and where the final bad guy is) I want a queable raid mode. If they want to remove LFR and replace it with NM that's fine. But if they ever outright remove a queable raid mode then I won't be playing any longer.

But like I said this is just my experience and about me.

[Deleted]

The part where your reasoning is flawed is that you assume people are using LFR as an altertantive to Normal raiding.

When the reality is that LFR is being used by people who would otherwise not be raiding or have no intention of going to Normal or beyond regardless.

Then theres no point for it to be there is there? Theres alot of different people that do LFR. It's not just one group.

I can assure you that if theres no LFR the pool of people wanting to get into guilds to raid will increase. Of course, not all will do that. But thats ok, because raiding isn't for them and they probably would prefer to get better content that better suits their play style.

[Jtbrig7390]

I can assure you that if theres no LFR the pool of people wanting to get into guilds to raid will increase.

LFR was made because the group of people getting into raiding was not increasing at all.

Please provide some kind of data to back up such a statement. What you don't have any data and are just talking out your ass... I though as much.

[Deleted]

Before LFR you had raids with reused assets. One - two boss instances. Very few people actually going into raids and a group of investors that want to know where their money is being spent.

The latter 2 are important here. If investors are seeing that 1-2% are seeing what their money paid for they are going to demand that money go elsewhere. Now I don't mind more open world stuff made but at the same time how are you going to have bosses that are not zerged so much they become tank and spank lag fests if you don't have raids. You think Mythic Archimonde or Heroic Garrosh or many other bosses could exist without them?

With that logic, we might aswell fire the designers and get the investors designing the game. But during the bigger spikes of revenue from WoW there was no LFR. Coincidence? I think not.

The designers should focus on making the best game possible. If the design process goes like you describe, well... its no wonder the game tanked. If we designed by majority rule, we would log in and be awarded a completely decked out character in tier gear and trinkets, rotations of 2 buttons with long periods of downtime and all content acessed by a click. Perfect investor game right there. Would people play it? Yeah some would. But many would leave and it would no longer be the mmo to play. Casuals flock to what is considered popular by trendsetters. Such a game wouldn't last long.

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LFR was made because the group of people getting into raiding was not increasing at all.

Please provide some kind of data to back up such a statement. What you don't have any data and are just talking out your ass... I though as much.

You mean like your data that doesn't show sub increases after LFR beeing added? Where LFR defenders admit people leave the game after doing the LFR for a bit because they don't care about the ilvl progression?

Also, where do you come off saying LFR was made for that? You talk more outta your rear end.

It's logical that without it the raider pool will increase. Exactly because some will want to see the raids.

If that isn't the case, then you are admiting they don't want to see the raids. At wich point, why would they want LFR? Logic wrecks you friend.

[Fenixhart]

Then theres no point for it to be there is there? Theres alot of different people that do LFR. It's not just one group.

I can assure you that if theres no LFR the pool of people wanting to get into guilds to raid will increase. Of course, not all will do that. But thats ok, because raiding isn't for them and they probably would prefer to get better content that better suits their play style.

Explain to me how people who can get into a raid via solo queueing would seek to join a guild for the same thing if LFR was taken out.

The more likely scenario is that they just wouldn't bother period.

[Jtbrig7390]

You mean like your data that doesn't show sub increases after LFR beeing added?

What in the fuck are you talking about? I never said the sub's increased after LFR was added. They did stabilize for abit but not they never increased.

Also, where do you come off saying LFR was made for that? You talk more outta your rear end.

I get off by saying that because......BLIZZARD SAID IT.

Stop ignoring what blizzard has already stated. That's the problem with you people, you ignore what blizzard has said because it doesn't fit your argument.

Replying to you is pointless because I am now repeating the same thing I told you yesterday.

[Echo of Soul]

Raiding has always been less appealing and that's why the percent who did it has always been super small.

Until now at least when pretty much everyone who plays at endgame has to do it. The appeal is probably the same but the participation is higher because of lack of options.