1. #2001
    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    Lord of flames has a 10 minute cd so it'd be more like once per fight.
    CD-wise for a ST fight, would it be correct to assume we'll use the Doomguard on CD and use Infernal with Lord of Flames during Bloodlust over the Doomguard?

  2. #2002
    Quote Originally Posted by Duckz0rs View Post
    CD-wise for a ST fight, would it be correct to assume we'll use the Doomguard on CD and use Infernal with Lord of Flames during Bloodlust over the Doomguard?
    *shrug*

    Depends on a lot of things I don't have the information for, but sounds plausible. Either something like that or just an obvious aoe moment in the fight that we'll look to capitalize on.

    Definitely gonna be one of those points of contention where people are gonna be bickering because they want their 10 minute CD to soak up the most aoe and not go to waste.
    ..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.

  3. #2003
    Okay... the havoc talent is so cool.

    But why doesn't it work with the rifts ? Those are unique target spell so it should work.
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  4. #2004
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Ilir View Post
    Okay... the havoc talent is so cool.

    But why doesn't it work with the rifts ? Those are unique target spell so it should work.
    well, you're not casting the spells that the rifts are casting tho.

  5. #2005
    Quote Originally Posted by Ilir View Post
    Okay... the havoc talent is so cool.

    But why doesn't it work with the rifts ? Those are unique target spell so it should work.
    The rifts are essentially minions, not spells.

    It's just an untargetable mob that shoots projectiles.

  6. #2006
    mmh true, makes sense. That would have been pretty cool tho !
    _____________________

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  7. #2007
    Deleted
    Still not liking the Lord of Flames talent, unless they make Infernals deal propper damage in raids, it's a wasted cd, unless you use imp or waste time having to summon your doomguard back up, after you used the spell - seems annoying and against blizzard "we don't want clunky specs" logic. I still don't see why they had to change it from when it was just spawning an infernal while using RoF.

  8. #2008
    Quote Originally Posted by Azar View Post
    I still don't see why they had to change it from when it was just spawning an infernal while using RoF.
    Because it would have locked us out of using our baseline aoe, it would have been the shittiest design imaginable.

    Honestly starting to think the trait was well intentioned but not something they should pursue. Though this is a lot more livable but makes gosup pretty much a *never take this* talent.
    ..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.

  9. #2009
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    Though this is a lot more livable but makes gosup pretty much a *never take this* talent.
    This is exactly is a big problem imo, i don't see any other spec having a artifact talent that pretty much is useless unless you choose a certain talent. I could be wrong on this though. To me, it just seems like they have no clue what to do with it, i mean I don't mind it being a 10 min cd, but at least make it a stand alone spell we can use, so it's not gated behind bad logic.

  10. #2010
    Quote Originally Posted by Azar View Post
    This is exactly is a big problem imo, i don't see any other spec having a artifact talent that pretty much is useless unless you choose a certain talent. I could be wrong on this though. To me, it just seems like they have no clue what to do with it, i mean I don't mind it being a 10 min cd, but at least make it a stand alone spell we can use, so it's not gated behind bad logic.
    Well its not useless unless, its useless if.

    But that's really only in the case of raiding, and you'll still have 2 solid talent options on that row. So I imagine blizzard is probably OK with that situation.
    ..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.

  11. #2011
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    Well its not useless unless, its useless if.

    But that's really only in the case of raiding, and you'll still have 2 solid talent options on that row. So I imagine blizzard is probably OK with that situation.
    generally speaking imo, anything that would take away choices is bad design,

  12. #2012
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    Don't see how it takes away GoSup, so you will have to do a little pet dancing once in 10 mins, boohoo?

  13. #2013
    Quote Originally Posted by almara2512 View Post
    generally speaking imo, anything that would take away choices is bad design,
    That's not always the case.

    You also have to remember that this game doesn't focus solely on 1 type of play and its been completely normal over the years to have talents that don't work well in multiple kinds of play.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Don't see how it takes away GoSup, so you will have to do a little pet dancing once in 10 mins, boohoo?
    You'd have to drop 2 shards and 2 casts to get the infernal out just to summon the 4 and then swap back to doomguard. Tuning on lord of flames determines whether or not that's even worth doing, but my kneejerk inclination is that it wouldn't be compared to just having service or gosac and the cooldown.
    ..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.

  14. #2014
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Don't see how it takes away GoSup, so you will have to do a little pet dancing once in 10 mins, boohoo?
    If the Infernal does respectable damage compared to the Doomguard you could just use that one anyway. It should proc off of Meteor Strike as well according to the beta notes. Although for some reason only the Doomguard benefits from Impish Incineration...

  15. #2015
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    You'd have to drop 2 shards and 2 casts to get the infernal out just to summon the 4 and then swap back to doomguard. Tuning on lord of flames determines whether or not that's even worth doing, but my kneejerk inclination is that it wouldn't be compared to just having service or gosac and the cooldown.
    And? Usual way you use 1 shard and 1 GCD... so you lose about 2.5 seconds of casting and 1 shard once per 10 minutes?

    Big whoop... it is for sure worth 3 Infernals ganging onto something even single target.

  16. #2016
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    And? Usual way you use 1 shard and 1 GCD... so you lose about 2.5 seconds of casting and 1 shard once per 10 minutes?

    Big whoop... it is for sure worth 3 Infernals ganging onto something even single target.
    Unless you have some insight into final tuning (which I think it's safe to say you don't), you definitely do not know that "it is for sure worth 3 infernals..."

    None of us know if that will work out mathematically or not - guesses are the best we can do. As far as subjective criteria however, hard cast "pet twisting" has never been fun (for me). I don't care if it's once every 10 mins, I still would find it irksome.

    That said, I don't expect GoSup will be the raiding talent of choice anyway, and that is the only area of the game I personally care about. So I'm not too stressed about this, but it's perfectly valid for people who really like GoSup and plan to use it to be annoyed by the need to hard-cast a pet to proc their 10 minute dps cd, only to re-hardcast their original pet again afterwards.

  17. #2017
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    And? Usual way you use 1 shard and 1 GCD... so you lose about 2.5 seconds of casting and 1 shard once per 10 minutes?

    Big whoop... it is for sure worth 3 Infernals ganging onto something even single target.
    1 shard + cast to summon infernal, infernal then casts the spell, then I presume you leave the infernal out for the duration of the other infernals, you then spend a second shard + cast to summon your doomguard. And this is to have your 4 mini infernals gang the targets.

    Whether or not that's worth vs other things you can spend those shards + gcd's on + losing gosac or service pet is entirely up to tuning, but I'm not holding my breath.
    ..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.

  18. #2018
    I think we can at least agree that a more elegant design would be preferred.

  19. #2019
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grizelda View Post
    I think we can at least agree that a more elegant design would be preferred.
    5% random proc chance upon casting RoF, no ICD. Because class fantasy. Duh.

  20. #2020
    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    1 shard + cast to summon infernal, infernal then casts the spell, then I presume you leave the infernal out for the duration of the other infernals, you then spend a second shard + cast to summon your doomguard. And this is to have your 4 mini infernals gang the targets.
    Of course, it's only this extra shard and time if you want to use LoF at some point that is not the start (or nearly the start) of the fight. Because you can just open with the infernal out in that case, of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grizelda View Post
    I think we can at least agree that a more elegant design would be preferred.
    Since the spec has been functional, I think this is certainly the best version of LoF that we've had. The initial "one infernal per RoF" was pretty whatever, the "summon six infernals with RoF once every ten minutes" was cool but waaaaaaay more mechanically awkward.

    I suppose theoretically the quote-unquote "best" version would just be a separate spell, but it's hardly an elegant solution if that's what you're after. It's difficult to guess at intentions, but it seems like they want it to be something that causes some deviation from the norm (ie, to use summon infernal instead of summon doomguard once a fight, or the pet-twist with GoSup), which a separate spell wouldn't actually solve.

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