20 Man Mythic: Success or Failure?

[Low Hanging Fruit]

And this is where I have to stop you. You don't know and have no way of knowing how many people did 10mans because they wanted and how many because they didn't have a choise (because they had other priority and 25man guilds started disappearing so fast). All we have is anegdotal evidence. There were people who quit the game because they didn't want to switch to 10man and their 25man guild wasn't able to raid anymore. There were people who kept raiding in 10man guilds but missed the times when they were in their non existant 25man guilds. There were people who prefered 10mans over 25mans. There were people who didn't care what format they raid as long as they get loot and achievements (and I am inclined to believe that lat group potentially was the biggest).

Anyway, once again, the issues with recruitment were created in Cataclysm. I don't think it's possible to get back to how well it was in Wrath in terms of recruitment for high end raiding. And even if it is, it will take years to rebuild raiding scene. Also, it might require some bold moves to bring potential raiders together (realm/faction transfers are the biggest issue right now)

If the evidence we have is anegdotal then either of us have an arguement. So it is merely an opinion. I know where mine is. I know where yours is. Either is right or wrong. At least its settled.

[Marani]

I like 20 man mythic
But then again I kinda liked 25man raiding as well. In wotlk I started going 10m with my guild and 25m randomly... later the roles swtched around. I hated it when they changed the id system so that you were only able to go one of them (at least on then-heroic dfficulty). In cata 25m raiding died completely on our server... five guilds are listed on wowprogress on our server who killed a boss in tier 13 25man... yeah killed ANY boss so that it'll be listed on wowprog, we are not talking about clearing (though there still was 1 alliance and 1 horde guild who did that) ... compared to 143 who killed anything in tier 10 25man and probably a lot more random 25m that wouldn't be listed. "casual 25m" just didn't exist anymore. And I felt like that sucked yes the population in wow plummeted during that time frame, but not by that much.
I loooved it sooo much when they introduced flex ^^ and the introduction of loot lockout only in lower difficulties! So great! Best decision ever made in my opinion.

For mythic, I guess I would have neither minded only 10m or only 25m or as it ended up only 20m. I personally like the bigger raidsize but it's also obvious how maintaining that roster is a pain in the ass (at least on our server it seems to be).

[kaamila]

I would have liked it better if it was 15 man instead of 20. I think that was the biggest mistake they made. Raiding 20 man, or 25 man before it always felt boring to me because no one talked, only knew a handful of the raiders cuz most of the others just logged on for raid time. Felt like a job to me. in 10 man heroic(mythic now), everyone knew everyone. The friendship was "stronger" between raiders and it was fun. To me kills felt more satisfying because 1 death in 10man, meant a wipe. I probably wont be playing legion because my main objective in WoW is to raid, and 20 man will feel the same as it did in WoD for me, and if i wanted to do 10man with my old guildies friends, itll have to be heroic which is just too easy.

[TEHPALLYTANK]

"Fun" is subjective therefor can't be measured therefor isn't really a part of the dicussion that is ment to determine if something was a failure or not.

In other words, what you find fun isn't fun for me and the other way around.

Ah right, fun in a video game doesn't matter. Good argument.

[Relapses]

Ah right, fun in a video game doesn't matter. Good argument.

Who are you to say that 10s were universally more "fun" than 20M? It's not an argument, it's conjecture. Nobody can speak unequivocally for what all players felt about raid sizes.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Who are you to say that 10s were universally more "fun" than 20M? It's not an argument, it's conjecture. Nobody can speak unequivocally for what all players felt about raid sizes.

Right. But it is clear some if not a lot did. Destroyed their game play, plans, and guilds to allow for a slightly better tuned fight in a few situations and settled a which is better 10 man or 25 man argument that really didn't matter a single bit outside of maybe a 100 guilds in the world. I enjoyed the living shit of of WoD mythics. But it is also pretty fucking clear it fucked a lot of people over. I don't like my enjoyment to do that to people in the game. Here.. maybe.. because it's here and most everyone is here to be an asshole anyway. But not in WoW because it's a game just about everyone should be able to enjoy their own way at this point. If some kid gets to raid mythic with 10 guys, gets to fly, does pvp, or gets a set bonus from LFR it doesn't really matter to me. Because I am having a grand old time in my own way over in my corner.

[lockblock]

It's a failure. Their is nobody to recruit on my server group. Unless wow tokens become useable for character transfers my guild is stuck there.

[cFortyfive]

if people preferred 25 man

No you can't. People don't want to do more than others for the same reward - minor levels of enjoyment don't change nothing about that.

Destroyed their game play, plans, and guilds

Kinda funny how that went considering it was perfectly acceptable for 10s players when it were the 25m guilds on that side of history.

[Relapses]

No you can't. People don't want to do more than others for the same reward - minor levels of enjoyment don't change nothing about that.

Kinda funny how that went considering it was perfectly acceptable for 10s players when it were the 25m guilds on that side of history.

It was much easier for players who'd previously been playing 25s to drop down to 10 than it is to build back up. In essence, that's the major gripe players have about Mythic's 20M raid size.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Kinda funny how that went considering it was perfectly acceptable for 10s players when it were the 25m guilds on that side of history.

The difference was players made that choice. I was apart of a 25 man guild myself to tell the truth and it was pretty dog easy to slide into 20 mans. I perfered the larger size (and still do personally). Blizzard did not delete 25 mans and left 10s in its wake. The option for both was on the table and the players made a choice. With 20 man mythic the option and choice was deleted. You only had one choice and it was decided not by the players but by Blizzard. Which is a stark difference. If the masses choose to go 10s for whatever reason.. then at least they made that choice themselves.

[Deleted]

Failure for my last guild as it was a big reason of why they disbanded but a succes for my current guild even tho they are danish only.

It all depense on how the guild handles it, my old guild didnt handle it well as we got to many casual players who just werent on par with our more hardcore players wich clashed and had trouble recruiting wich eventually led to a disband on 11/13 Mythic progress hfc. The Danish only guild i then joined at 9/13M progress are way more on par with eachother and even tho they only take in danish players they dont have much trouble recruiting and i have been farming 13/13 Mythic with them for +10 weeks now.

[cFortyfive]

The difference was players made that choice. I was apart of a 25 man guild myself to tell the truth and it was pretty dog easy to slide into 20 mans. I perfered the larger size (and still do personally). Blizzard did not delete 25 mans and left 10s in its wake. The option for both was on the table and the players made a choice.

There wasn't much of a choice to make previously either. I was with my main in a 25m guild but have been in enough 10m groups as well. The "temptation" to just go full 10m was ridiculous even if it was just for something simple like a raid going bad because of some individual you actually otherwise get along with really well screwing up on wind council. There was zero incentive to keep a 25m guild I still am not sure how my guild back then actually survived at that time - I suppose it was because we were still at that time essentially a very large circle of at the very least good acquaintances if not friends.

It was much easier for players who'd previously been playing 25s to drop down to 10 than it is to build back up. In essence, that's the major gripe players have about Mythic's 20M raid size.

And that's my problem because... ?

[Relapses]

And that's my problem because... ?

I'm not describing it as your problem. I'm re-emphasizing the paradigm between 10s and 25s. 25s splitting to 10s (in T11) was a lot easier for players than vice versa.

[Osmeric]

And that's my problem because... ?

Privilege: when a problem isn't a problem because it isn't your problem.

[Relapses]

Privilege: when a problem isn't a problem because it isn't your problem.

You can say raiders who prefer larger raids are privileged but I question why the model for larger raids worked for the entirety of the game's existence up until T11. Was it that there was an unseen desire by players to have access to smaller raids? I doubt that was the case since 10s were still vastly less popular than 25s when they didn't offer the same rewards. Or was it, as I've stated many times, the fact that it's always easier for players to form smaller raid groups and if you give them the same rewards at each raid size, they will by and large choose the path of least resistance?

[cFortyfive]

I'm not describing it as your problem. I'm re-emphasizing the paradigm between 10s and 25s. 25s splitting to 10s (in T11) was a lot easier for players than vice versa.

Not that I care but I am pretty sure I didn't claim going 10s was incredibly hard or that upscaling your raid group was incredibly easy even if it was just for the lack of decent leadership which is hard to come by. I am in somewhat the same boat anyways - the reward structure being the same made 25m impossible.

Privilege: when a problem isn't a problem because it isn't your problem.

Insert some equally interesting fortune cookie saying I suppose.

[Relapses]

Not that I care but I am pretty sure I didn't claim going 10s was incredibly hard or that upscaling your raid group was incredibly easy even if it was just for the lack of decent leadership which is hard to come by. I am in somewhat the same boat anyways - the reward structure being the same made 25m impossible.

I was agreeing with you. I know the discourse of discussion in this thread is often at odds with one another but not everybody who quotes you is looking for debate.

[cFortyfive]

I was agreeing with you. I know the discourse of discussion in this thread is often at odds with one another but not everybody who quotes you is looking for debate.

Well I suppose the slowpoke I am I should just continue practice.

[voidillusion]

You can say raiders who prefer larger raids are privileged but I question why the model for larger raids worked for the entirety of the game's existence up until T11. Was it that there was an unseen desire by players to have access to smaller raids? I doubt that was the case since 10s were still vastly less popular than 25s when they didn't offer the same rewards. Or was it, as I've stated many times, the fact that it's always easier for players to form smaller raid groups and if you give them the same rewards at each raid size, they will by and large choose the path of least resistance?

It could have been because you had up until then a pool of subscribers around 11 million, those times are long gone.

[Relapses]

It could have been because you had up until then a pool of subscribers around 11 million, those times are long gone.

Right, but the pool of available raiders didn't mysteriously vanish from T10 to T11. While the overall levels of subscribers dropped beginning in Cata, the advent of gear parity between 10 and 25 led to a split in the raiding playerbase which favored 10s either due to logistic concerns (likely) or due to the preference of smaller, more intimate raid sizes (not as likely as those who preferred 10M raiding like to say).