[Movie] Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice

[Deleted]

were in luck.

snyders been curbstomped and the arrowverse crew has taken over control of the dc cinematic universe in a new film division at warner bros

http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2016/05/...ge-of-the-dceu

Well Goeff Johns knows his comic stuff, but does he know movies?
If Johns and Afflek work together it should be alright, just let Snyder do the visuals (at least he's alright at that), but control all the rest. We might get a good JL out of it

[Jotaux]

I still contend they should just hand everything over to Bruce Timm and Paul Dini but this is a definite improvement.

I've been reading the pre-New 52 batman/superman comics lately and one thing I love is how they contrast Superman's optimism and Batman's pessimism against each other.

[Kelimbror]

PRAISE THE LORT

Until I hear full blown backtrack and termination of Snyder, I still don't have faith. Unless behind the scenes they are literally calling every shot and then he gets to slap his little name on some credits, it's still going to be derailed by too many cooks in the kitchen. I'm glad it got to this point, but I can't be reassured just yet.

[Faroth]

He might not kill in comics or video games. But he does kill in MOVIES. And you are complaining that he killed in BvS (which is a movie). So your argument is therefore invalid (in this case).

They are far more worse problem than Batman killing in this movie. Actually the killing part I can understand, he is older, has fought crime for decades, it took a toll on his mind. The Joker broke something within him, he is now pissed off and kills criminals. I understand it actually.

Yet he didn't murder the Joker. That's where I have a huge disconnect problem with people trying to rationalize MurderBat.

I'm hoping they just ditch that aspect of him going forward and fix what Snyder broke. Not only was it horrible characterization of Batman (even from TDKR), but it was a total miss on a great opportunity to see some cool gadgets used.

EMP, tazer, and caltrop gadgets during the car chase would have been awesome.

[Kelimbror]

EMP, tazer, and caltrop gadgets during the car chase would have been awesome.

Aint nobody got time fo gadgets when you can just shoot people with machine guns. Frank Wayne, I mean Bruce Castle, I mean The Punishman, err....you know, that bat guy with the guns cba to use gadgets.

[Jotaux]

Well this Batman was probably a victim of prison rape, who know what that did to him.

[cyberglum]

He might not kill in comics or video games. But he does kill in MOVIES.

Yet he didn't murder the Joker. That's where I have a huge disconnect problem with people trying to rationalize MurderBat.

Yet he kills The Joker in both The Dark Knight Returns and in The Killing Joke, the two most respected Batman comic stories of all time.

I really don't have a problem with Bats being more ruthless in the movies, it seems to me a natural progression of the character.

Its the handling of Superman, sorry Dourman, that upsets me.

[Faroth]

Yet he kills The Joker in both The Dark Knight Returns and in The Killing Joke, the two most respected Batman comic stories of all time.

I really don't have a problem with Bats being more ruthless in the movies, it seems to me a natural progression of the character.

Its the handling of Superman, sorry Dourman, that upsets me.

Read 'em again. He doesn't kill Joker in The Killing Joke, it's left open for reader interpretation. That's intentional.

He doesn't kill Joker in The Dark Knight Returns either.

BATMAN (thinking): . . . voices calling me . . . a killer . . . I wish I were . . .

THE JOKER: They're gone . . . ? . . . The witnesses, I man . . . I'm really . . . very disappointed with you, my sweet . . . the moment was . . . perfect . . . and you . . . didn't have the nerve . . . Paralysis . . . really . . . just an ounce or two more . . . of pressure . . and . . . Do I hear . . . sirens . . . ? Yes . . . coming close . . . you won't get far . . . But then . . . it doesn't matter . . . if you do . . . They'll kill you for this . . . and they'll never know . . . that you didn't have the nerve . . . I'll see . . . You . . . in Hell--

BATMAN (thinking): With a devil's strength . . . he twists . . . and twists . . . what's left of his spine goes . . .

Batman paralyses Joker, but can't bring himself to kill him. Joker kills himself.

[Faroth]

If it's intentionally left open for interpretation then it's entirely possible he did kill him which ended the laughter. You can't say one way or the other since it's left open for reader interpretation. Your interpretation is that he doesn't kill the Joker. Grant Morrison interpreted it this way on Fatman on Batman:

Let me rephrase, "Batman didn't definitively kill Joker in The Killing Joke."

[Jotaux]

Let me rephrase, "Batman didn't definitively kill Joker in The Killing Joke."

Events from the Killing Joke are considered cannon like Barbara being paralyzed. The Joker appears alive and well in events later so its safe to assume he was not killed.

[Faroth]

Events from the Killing Joke are considered cannon like Barbara being paralyzed. The Joker appears alive and well in events later so its safe to assume he was not killed.

There's also nothing mentioning Batman killing Joker in Alan Moore's original script for it:

Now just a half figure or head and shoulders shot of the Batman from the front. The absurdity of the situation comes homes to him, and one corner of his mouth twitches upwards. He and The Joker are going to kill each other one day. It’s preordained. They may as well enjoy this one rare moment of contact while it lasts.

/shrug

[Immitis]

Events from the Killing Joke are considered cannon like Barbara being paralyzed. The Joker appears alive and well in events later so its safe to assume he was not killed.

the joker is an immortal as he has the same substance inside of him that vandall savage/lazarus pits are made of. he was around for thousands of years occasionally fucking with things but couldnt find his purpose until he met batman and fell in love.

thats why the joker always comes back. because hes immortal.

[Magicalcrab]

the joker is an immortal as he has the same substance inside of him that vandall savage/lazarus pits are made of. he was around for thousands of years occasionally fucking with things but couldnt find his purpose until he met batman and fell in love.

thats why the joker always comes back. because hes immortal.

I admit I haven't kept up with DC comics as of late, but this sounds like either a red herring or the kind of thing I'd retcon out of there asap. This is like, The Phantom Menace-levels of bad comic book ideas if it's actually real.
I hate it when writers try to make a character more amazing than they have to be, or more relevant and special in-universe simply because they're important to us.

[Jotaux]

the joker is an immortal as he has the same substance inside of him that vandall savage/lazarus pits are made of. he was around for thousands of years occasionally fucking with things but couldnt find his purpose until he met batman and fell in love.

thats why the joker always comes back. because hes immortal.

Yes but that was a secret only known to Joker, I'm sure that Batman would have paused and said "wait? Didn't I kill this guy?" He probably wouldn't have had to be talked down from killing the Joker in the Hush storyline if he had already killed him once. He would have probably been able to kill him in the aftermath of death in the family if he had already killed him once. He would have been fine with Jason Todd killing him in under the red hood if he had already killed him. I could go on...

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I admit I haven't kept up with DC comics as of late, but this sounds like either a red herring or the kind of thing I'd retcon out of there asap. This is like, The Phantom Menace-levels of bad comic book ideas if it's actually real.
I hate it when writers try to make a character more amazing than they have to be, or more relevant and special in-universe simply because they're important to us.

I think it is going to be retconned in rebirth. They are also going to reveal his real name. Batman was surprised by it so I assume its someone we will recognize.

[Immitis]

I admit I haven't kept up with DC comics as of late, but this sounds like either a red herring or the kind of thing I'd retcon out of there asap. This is like, The Phantom Menace-levels of bad comic book ideas if it's actually real.
I hate it when writers try to make a character more amazing than they have to be, or more relevant and special in-universe simply because they're important to us.

i dont see how it makes the joker more special.

he was immortal but didnt do anything with it, he had no purpose. he just kind of hanged around gotham, fucking with someone every once in awhile but ultimately everything bored him.

then batman showed up, and batman completed him, he wanted batman to be like him, to be his family. the joker loves batman.

most of the jokers "origins" are basically the exact same sans immortality.

and considering the jokers "died" and come back so many times, most of the time unexplained, it actually makes sense.

it doesnt make him special, it just means he cant die.

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Yes but that was a secret only known to Joker, I'm sure that Batman would have paused and said "wait? Didn't I kill this guy?" He probably wouldn't have had to be talked down from killing the Joker in the Hush storyline if he had already killed him once. He would have probably been able to kill him in the aftermath of death in the family if he had already killed him once. He would have been fine with Jason Todd killing him in under the red hood if he had already killed him. I could go on...

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I think it is going to be retconned in rebirth. They are also going to reveal his real name. Batman was surprised by it so I assume its someone we will recognize.

its the joker. if batman ever killed the joker and saw him come back he'd just assume the joker jokered him.

im not debating whether he did or didnt, but when you're dealing with someone like the joker, and have been for as long as batman has, you never expect him to be gone.

even if he was dead dead its only a matter of time before some lunatic dumps him in a lazarus pit, or uses some magical amulet to revive him or some other crazy bullshit

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"For me, I wanted to make something that felt real and was believable, while at the same time was mythologically big and epic, the way the story is, so that it is material that might have been here and might have done this to Vandal Savage and might be the basis for the Lazarus Pit, or Electrum -- which is what keeps the Owls coming back from the dead, the Talons. It might have something to do with other figures as well, for Solomon Grundy... I wanted to create something that links all that. So the Joker says, "I knew this. I knew this part of it. I'm older than Gotham. I'm the Pale Man that walks these shores, and I've seen all of it. I'm the immortal person here. You are nothing. I let you believe it for a little while because I wanted you to come with me and become something important, but you had your chance in Death of the Family, and you threw me off a goddamn cliff. So... you're done."

[Mormolyce]

It occurred to me today were both mom's actually named Martha in the comic book?

Yes, although despite watching/reading Superman and Batman since I was a kid, it had never actually occurred to me until that moment. I'll give the movie props for that "reveal" lol.

Martha was a common name in the 40s I guess :P

Originally, way back, the focus was on him being a detective. And yes, he carried a gun and used it. More like Sam Spade than superhero.

Mmm, not really. I've got reprints of the original Batman comics (ie Detective Comics 27+) and while it is a bit different from modern Batman, I wouldn't say that.

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If it's intentionally left open for interpretation then it's entirely possible he did kill him which ended the laughter. You can't say one way or the other since it's left open for reader interpretation. Your interpretation is that he doesn't kill the Joker. Grant Morrison interpreted it this way on Fatman on Batman:

I doubt that was Alan Moore's intention, I'm pretty sure he meant it to end on a joke.

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"One phrase came out of his mouth over and over again as he talked about DC’s comics: “hope and optimism.”*

And here's a quote from Johns about Superman, the character who has been most mishandled by the movies:*

“I think people make a mistake when they say, ‘Superman’s not relatable because he’s so powerful,’” he said. “I’m like, ‘Are you kidding me? He’s a farmboy from Kansas who moves to the city and just wants to do the best he can with what he’s got.’ That’s the most relatable character in the world."

http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2016/05/...he-dc-universe

Hope and optimism.

PRAISE THE LORT

These definitely sound like improvements, but man what a mess. Short of rebooting the universe (and they have my full permission to do so) I don't see how they can fix the nightmare MoS/BvS left them in.

[RobertoCarlos]

These definitely sound like improvements, but man what a mess. Short of rebooting the universe (and they have my full permission to do so) I don't see how they can fix the nightmare MoS/BvS left them in.

I'd start with removing Zack Synder from all future films and try and get Christopher Nolan. Failing that, id just wait till the Russo brothers are out of contract with Marvel.

[Mormolyce]

I'd start with removing Zack Synder from all future films and try and get Christopher Nolan. Failing that, id just wait till the Russo brothers are out of contract with Marvel.

I hold Nolan partially accountable for the MoS/BvS disaster for helping Snyder try to Nolanise Superman.

Also as good as Dark Knight was, I feel like the Nolan Batman movies ran their course. Personally I thought Dark Knight Rises was totally artistically bankrupt.

[Deleted]

I'd start with removing Zack Synder from all future films and try and get Christopher Nolan. Failing that, id just wait till the Russo brothers are out of contract with Marvel.

Nolan isn't going to direct another Batman franchise. He was also a co-writer on Man of Steel and the Executive Producer of Batman V Superman.

[RobertoCarlos]

I hold Nolan partially accountable for the MoS/BvS disaster for helping Snyder try to Nolanise Superman.

Also as good as Dark Knight was, I feel like the Nolan Batman movies ran their course. Personally I thought Dark Knight Rises was totally artistically bankrupt.

Dark Knight rises defiantly had its problems. Doesn't help when the star villian dies IRL. And I still don't know how Banes audio got passed sound check, all you could hear was "I WASF BMOOFN IN DA DARGKLASSS"

But ah...I dunno Nolan certainly has a gift for getting the feels going in a film with a great music score and strong immersion skills.

The character batman is very much created by the director I feel. The actor can only do such. Its more about how its shot and the symbolism/style IMO.

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Nolan isn't going to direct another Batman franchise. He was also a co-writer on Man of Steel and the Executive Producer of Batman V Superman.

Didnt know Nolan was that heavily involved, good to know ty.