[Balance] Legion Discussion

[markos82]

Huh? Legion Starfall isn't anything like Hurricane, and we never used Hurricane to begin with. It's basically Rain of Fire.

The only thing that would be disliked, even remotely, would be the cost. And the cost isn't even a big deal once you get rolling. Radius is fine. Damage is hit asnd miss, but if you actually calculate effective damage, it's perfectly fine. Gameplay is so much better than a true fire and forget spell.

WOD Starfall was boring as fuck. Legion is far more active, and the gameplay feels good.

We used it in WoTLk if i remember right or was it DS...

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When such an iconic spell is utterly and completely boring, it's broken. So your critique doesn't apply, because it didn't work. This is a game, playing it should be engaging and fun.

With 15yd range i don't see anything fun in it. Reducing effected area by more than 60% is just stupid and redesigning it so we have to place it is waste of time and an old concept from a spell we used in only one?!? expansion to some degree and even then not every time.

[wing5wong]

what are you talking about?
The range and radius are huge. This is without stellar drift for a 30% radius increase

http://imgur.com/a/4hPMF

[striderZA]

Well that's not the same OKF we had in alpha that had a chance to proc a instant cast ever so often, this is the old version.

Yeah it's not the same as the old version, I kinda liked owlkin frenzy randomly proccing.

[Nerxyrall]

When such an iconic spell is utterly and completely boring, it's broken. So your critique doesn't apply, because it didn't work. This is a game, playing it should be engaging and fun.

In your opinion.
I and others think its the opposit.
To position yourself correctly in dungeons and Trash (not pull everything for example) was engaging.
Farming old/outdoor contend etc. will be much less fun....etc..

Since New Starfall has more interaction (Empowernments) it is more complicated/engaging/whatever.
But to claim it didnt work is just plain wrong. It maybe didnt work for you, but it worked for many people.
Only because something is fire and forget, doesnt mean people dont think its fun. You (and others) but not all do.

But this topic was discussed severeal times allready in this thread. Just two different opinions.


What would interest me: Many (myself included) fear that the ramp up and fast decap of astral power will make us pretty weak in dungeons.
Also on very short lived adds in Raids.

Raidtesting showed us (if i remember correctly, but didnt really look at many logs) in a good spot. So not so many worries here.

It was mentioned also that in fact we arent very good in dungeons.
What i want to know how "bad"(/good) is it? Numbers would be really appreciated if anybody has any....

[Owlkin]

It was mentioned also that in fact we arent very good in dungeons.
What i want to know how "bad"(/good) is it? Numbers would be really appreciated if anybody has any....

Spread aoe ok, but shadow priest do better.

Cleave Starfall sux, almost any class is better.

Stacked aoe starfall sux but FoE can be realy great.

In raid testing starfall was ok. But blizzard nerf dots after that. And you will not have dots traits any time soon.

[Nerxyrall]

Spread aoe ok, but shadow priest do better.

Cleave Starfall sux, almost any class is better.

Stacked aoe starfall sux but FoE can be realy great.

In raid testing starfall was ok. But blizzard nerf dots after that. And you will not have dots traits any time soon.

So you could say(oversimplified):
1. Trashgroup FoE+Moonspells -->competitive probably even top dmg
2. Slow ramp up StarfallDmg -->underperforming
3. Foe+Moonspells -->competitive/Top Dmg
4....

Is that ~ correct?

And does the fast Decay of Astral Power hurts us a lot or is chainpulling the norm even in mythic+ anyway?

[Owlkin]

So you could say(oversimplified):
1. Trashgroup FoE+Moonspells -->competitive probably even top dmg
2. Slow ramp up StarfallDmg -->underperforming
3. Foe+Moonspells -->competitive/Top Dmg
4....

Is that ~ correct?

And does the fast Decay of Astral Power hurts us a lot or is chainpulling the norm even in mythic+ anyway?

Correct. FoE is moonkin's analog of Bladestorm.

Astral Power decay is not problem. Pause before the decay is big enough.

[huth]

With 15yd range i don't see anything fun in it. Reducing effected area by more than 60% is just stupid

15y radius. Range is 45 yards. You can actually hit things up to 60y away from you with the new Starfall.

Besides, most of the previous area was rarely relevant anyway.

and redesigning it so we have to place it is waste of time and an old concept from a spell we used in only one?!? expansion to some degree and even then not every time.

Wild Mushrooms? Blizzard? Rain of Fire? The concept may be old, but it has always been relevant.

[Cyous]

Spread aoe ok, but shadow priest do better.

Cleave Starfall sux, almost any class is better.

Stacked aoe starfall sux but FoE can be realy great.

In raid testing starfall was ok. But blizzard nerf dots after that. And you will not have dots traits any time soon.

Who cares if Spriests do it better. Guess what -- someone is at the bottom too. Our Spread AOE is very strong. Too wide for Bladestorm? Starfall can cover it most of thge time. Stellar Drift if you need even more range. If they clump up for a reasonable amount of time -- drop FOE on them. It's really not that complex.

Starfall's effective damage is the among the strongest. Once it gets going, the damage from Lunar Strike and Stellar Empowerment crush the meters.

I was EASILY Top 3 on adds and boss.

We used it in WoTLk if i remember right or was it DS...

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With 15yd range i don't see anything fun in it. Reducing effected area by more than 60% is just stupid and redesigning it so we have to place it is waste of time and an old concept from a spell we used in only one?!? expansion to some degree and even then not every time.

Wow, 5-6 years ago? Hurricane was only relevant in T11 and only to exploit our 4pc.

15 yards = 30 yards diameter. It covers PLENTY of ground, even before Stellar Drift.

[Adramelch]

Well that's not the same OKF we had in alpha that had a chance to proc a instant cast ever so often, this is the old version.

Yeah it's not the same as the old version, I kinda liked owlkin frenzy randomly proccing.

It's exactly the same that we always had in Alpha. The random proc was the "on equip" effect of Scythe of Elune before it was changed. But OKF as a skill has always been (on live and throughout alpha) the same (proccing on melee hits).

[huth]

It's exactly the same that we always had in Alpha. The random proc was the "on equip" effect of Scythe of Elune before it was changed. But OKF as a skill has always been (on live and throughout alpha) the same (proccing on melee hits).

Was it OKF or Clearcast that just randomly procced from everything and anything(almost literally. Including zoning) way back in BC or so?

[Adramelch]

Was it OKF or Clearcast that just randomly procced from everything and anything(almost literally. Including zoning) way back in BC or so?

I can't recall (wasn't playing a druid back then anyway). My always referred to WoD/Legion (hence the parenthesis).

[Owlkin]

Who cares if Spriests do it better. Guess what -- someone is at the bottom too. Our Spread AOE is very strong. Too wide for Bladestorm? Starfall can cover it most of thge time. Stellar Drift if you need even more range. If they clump up for a reasonable amount of time -- drop FOE on them. It's really not that complex.

Starfall's effective damage is the among the strongest. Once it gets going, the damage from Lunar Strike and Stellar Empowerment crush the meters.

I was EASILY Top 3 on adds and boss.

No doubt you did.

Last test was on May 3.
May 6 Blizzard nerfed our DoTs by 17 %. In addition, you had all traits. In Live, you can not get them for very long.

As a result, minus 17% due to nerf, 10% for traits and 4-5 % Echoing stars.

I do not think you will be in the same good shape on live.

It that I see then I run dungeons at least.

Funny. Sunfire evolution(dot part):
7.0.1 Build 20740 - 168%
7.0.1 Build 20900 - 336%
7.0.1 Build 21107 - 504%
7.0.3 Build 21473 - 360%
7.0.3 Build 21655 - 300%

[Mystikal]

I've been enjoying testing with Stellar Flare. It's not too difficult to keep up on 2-3 targets, hits decently hard and helps prevent constantly overcapping Astral Power. Not sure whether I prefer using it with BoA or Shooting Stars yet, but there's plenty more time left to decide that.

What I have found, to my pleasant surprise following the buffs to Killer Instinct and cat form Swipe, is that Feral Affinity + Swipe is actually very good, quick AoE damage combined with Sunfire spread. If there's a group of adds which absolutely must "die now" in dungeons but won't live long enough for full multidotting + Starfall, Swipe is a great way to "get in there" and deal some damage without feeling like a third wheel. I know it's not a huge deal, but it's something.

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On the topic of OKF, it seems bugged to me - I cannot recall it ever proccing in all the testing I've done since beta started. Anyone else seeing the same issue?

Also, Touch of the Moon needs either a stronger heal or a lower ICD, in my opinion. Even at 3/3, it hardly ever procs and, when it does, the heal often isn't meaningful enough to matter.

[Deleted]

On the topic of OKF, it seems bugged to me - I cannot recall it ever proccing in all the testing I've done since beta started. Anyone else seeing the same issue?

On alpha the weapon had a chance to randomly proc OKF without having to be hit and it seems like it got removed or bugged out.

[huth]

On alpha the weapon had a chance to randomly proc OKF without having to be hit and it seems like it got removed or bugged out.

Removed, like with all other Artifacts. Originally, they all had an Equip: effect, now they just re-state their initial trait.

[Mystikal]

It's in the tooltip for Moonkin Form, so must be bugged at present.

[striderZA]

It's exactly the same that we always had in Alpha. The random proc was the "on equip" effect of Scythe of Elune before it was changed. But OKF as a skill has always been (on live and throughout alpha) the same (proccing on melee hits).

Owlkin frenzy proccing randomly and proccing from melee hits is not the same though.

[Adramelch]

Owlkin frenzy proccing randomly and proccing from melee hits is not the same though.

Yeah but what I mean is that OKF as a skill only ever procced from melee hits. What happened in Alpha was that the artifact had an on-equip effect that gave you that random proccing. They didn't change OKF from live to Alpha and then back, they only changed that on-equip effect.

[Alame]

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@Alame
Empowerments:
1.) Disagree. There is min/max gameplay with Lunar Empowerment. Holding those for AOE phases (as much as possible) is a fairly big DPS increase.

This is assuming that:
1. An AoE phase exists to this boss.
2. The DPS gain from holding Empowerments & using AoE time to cast Lunar Strike is better than casting FoE/Starfall/DoTs.
3. The AoE mobs are suitable for Lunar Strike's piddly 5 yrd splash range (small models, easily stackable.)

That's also only half the mechanic. There is no equivalent gameplay element to Solar empowerment when you're using Lunar Strike as primary filler. They're just there until you have a chance to dump them. If the purpose of the mechanic is to provide min/max gameplay by the strategic dumping of empowerments then the mechanic is a wholesale failure, because half of it doesn't have that mechanic, and the acquire/consume rate is way off for something that's supposed to be held onto for specific scenarios. You inevitably have to consume them outside of the 'max' scenario or else you're pseudo-punished for overwriting them.

2.) It draws power away from Starsurge because Starsurge shouldn't 2-shot people. Why is this an issue now and not in WOD? It's the same mechanic.

I do talk about this in the post. It's not an issue in WoD because the eclipse cycle because Starsurge and it's empowerments served as incentive to cast Starfire/Wrath as something other than filler. Priority #1 in high-eclipse states is to consume empowerments, without the empowerment mechanic it's to cast Starsurge and at that point Wrath/Starfire have zero purpose outside of being a time filler. That is not the case in Legion, as they are now Astral Power generators.

3.) The issues only occur in ST, with Incarnation, and only after you get to Full Moon #2. Incarnation has been bugged for the overwhleming majority of testing, granting 50% more Astral Power than intended, leading to overflow issues. Even with a non-bugged Incarnation, the issue boils down to Patchwerk. It doesn't mean overflow isn't possible, it just means you're misplaying the spec to some extent.

If the issue exists and is down to a bug then that bug needs to be eradicated so the issue can be re-evaluated. If it's not an issue (outside of reasonable overflow based on poor play) without the bug then take it off the list.

Stellar Flare:
1.) It's a bit weird yes.
2.) It's not awkward to use. It's just not fully understood in Multi-Target yet. Lots of testing needed.
3.) It's a different playstyle. It could stomp Incarnation and SOTF on 3-target cleave, no one has done the math yet.

Problem with Stellar Flare is predominantly it's Astral Power cost and how that competes with FoE. FoE's coefficient is straight up better than StF and as soon as you add multiple targets FoE blows StF out of the water. Why would I be burning AsP I could be spending on FoE on StF? The only answer is that targets are too spread out for FoE. A good example of this was Iron Maidens back in BRF, Stellar Flare could be competitive on that fight (albeit things were slightly different) but the vast majority of players continued to take Euphoria or Balance of Power simply because their familiarity with the ability made it more likely for them to play that playstyle optimally than to try and mess with Stellar Flare for the one boss in which it could compete. The niche where StF MIGHT be good right now is too small. If it's not viable on ~20% of encounters it needs to have it's scope broadened, or else it ends up in the binary overpowered/not used state I describe.

Stellar Drift:
1.) Yes, StD kinda sucks.
2.) ---
3.) Again with ramp-up. In what context is it so bad? Why is ramp-up a bad thing, or what is an acceptable amount fo ramp-up? What are you doing to objectively measure ramp-up?

Ramp up is bad in the context where the Druid never achieves their full damage output on a pull. Wherever TTD < Time to Max Output, the ramp up is problematic. TTD ~= TTMO is fine, but consistently pushing past it to where the Druid consistently underperforms on pulls simply because they don't live long enough is bad. Ramp up is super easy to ballpark - how many GCDs are required to satisfy the AoE rotation? For Balance:

1. Apply Sunfire to all targets (1 GCD)
2. Generate enough AsP for Starfall (3s -> 2 GCDs, being generous and allowing use of Full Moon)
3. Cast Starfall (1 GCD)
4. Apply Moonfire to all targets (1 GCD/target)

We don't really have a solid idea just yet of when this style of AoE kicks in, but with FoE as it is I guess it's somewhere between 5 and 8 targets. Because these targets are short lived, the Moonfires are less important, and we can say TTMO is somewhere at the start of step 4, meaning our ramp up time is 4-6 GCDs, or 6-9 seconds. I recall Blizzard mentioning their ideal TTD during leveling (although I don't recall where?) is around 10s, so in this case TTMO is virtually equal to TTD. As soon as you outgear content, or have a min/max crew for content like Mythic+, TTD is going to start dipping below TTMO and it becomes problematic. You also have the fiddly relationship in that as TTD increases, Moonfires becomes more important and TTMO also increases. All of this is caused by the problem that our large-scale AoE damage is dependent on DoTs and the GCDs they incur, hence the suggestion to replace a bad talent with one offering a different, more simple playstyle that doesn't tie our AoE into DoT GCDs in the same fashion.