Does the 'LFR pays for Raid Development' argument make sense?

[Tomana]

The statement "LFR pays for raid development" makes some sense, but is pulled way out of proportion. The driving force behind the raid development is people that love raiding, not people that love wellfare epics.

Unfortunately, that also a problem: some raiding devs are too detached from the problems and issues of the non-raiding playerbase.

[Deleted]

Something that's ment to literally show you the content without the option of failure.

I disagree, that is not the goal of LFR, it is meant to provide single players content, so that they remain subbed longer, after reaching max level and doing the 5 mans a bunch of time.
It has nearly zero option of failure, because it is the only way to lure a single player into a multiplayer gameplay, same way as world bosses (I still have to see a failure on kazzak, and i have done it dozens of times), because single players have the lowest tolerance possible, for failure on a multiplayer gameplay.

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LFR players are considered second-class citizens and are getting screwed because the Raider "ruling class" does not wish to be bothered with running LFR.

Nope, that is not it. Blizz is trying to engage LFR players into other activities, because i am afraid that although it is true that LFR as end game content, is better than no content at all, it is not exactly great as subs retention mechanism.
I suspect in WOD they were aiming to move the playerbase from LFR to normal, hoping that way those players would engage into social relationships, that at the end of the day are the most important factor in retaining players.
Problem is, the single player mentality i described, it is not interested in any scheduling, an even a forgiving difficulty as normal, requires scheduling and quite a bigger social interaction, that the single player mindset is not interested in at all, that is why among other reasons they failed hard.
But i am sure if LFR had always been a success in terms of subs retention rates, it would have remained untouched since it was introducted into the game.

[Osmeric]

Nope, that is not it. Blizz is trying to engage LFR players into other activities, because i am afraid that although it is true that LFR as end game content, is better than no content at all, it is not exactly great as subs retention mechanism.
I suspect in WOD they were aiming to move the playerbase from LFR to normal, hoping that way those players would engage into social relationships, that at the end of the day are the most important factor in retaining players.
Problem is, the single player mentality i described, it is not interested in any scheduling, an even a forgiving difficulty as normal, requires scheduling and quite a bigger social interaction, that the single player mindset is not interested in at all, that is why among other reasons they failed hard.
But i am sure if LFR had always been a success in terms of subs retention rates, it would have remained untouched since it was introducted into the game.

They also, for some bizarre reason, tuned up the difficulty of normal mode in HM/BRF vs. where it had been in SoO.

I knew a raid group (from other MMOs) that came to WoW at the end of MoP due to the Flex mechanism being added. They had a fine time in SoO, doing Flex and some Normal. But in WoD they struggled in N HM, not clearing it before BRF came out, and gave up shortly after that. The idea that normal mode in WoD would be for "friends and family" guilds was a lie. Poor scaling of raid difficulty with size in flex mode probably didn't help.

[Relapses]

They also, for some bizarre reason, tuned up the difficulty of normal mode in HM/BRF vs. where it had been in SoO.

I knew a raid group (from other MMOs) that came to WoW at the end of MoP due to the Flex mechanism being added. They had a fine time in SoO, doing Flex and some Normal. But in WoD they struggled in N HM, not clearing it before BRF came out, and gave up shortly after that. The idea that normal mode in WoD would be for "friends and family" guilds was a lie. Poor scaling of raid difficulty with size in flex mode probably didn't help.

That's anecdotal evidence but you are likely correct in that the dev's missed the mark w/ the difficulty of Normal HM/BRF. By the time they'd realized it, the game was already bleeding customers at an unprecedented rate so I think they just kind of threw their hands in their, said "Fuck it," and decided it was something which needed to be moved to the To-Do list of shit to fix in Legion.

[kamuimac]

I know, it was explicitly stated by the devs. Unfortunately, that doesn't make that logic less stupid. What they said between the lines is that LFR players are considered second-class citizens and are getting screwed because the Raider "ruling class" does not wish to be bothered with running LFR. That, added to complete lack of open-world content, managed the awesome exploit of halving WoW's playerbase in 6 months.

well the thing is not only lfr players got screwed - anyone besides mythic raiders got screwed royaly without vaseline as they removed any other content from game besides raiding in desperate try to push people into raiding which failed completly and utterly - i bet that atm lfr is the only reason why raiding didnt got completly dissected from legion

They also, for some bizarre reason, tuned up the difficulty of normal mode in HM/BRF vs. where it had been in SoO.

incomptence - pure incompetence - that the reason - but i blame blizzard politics for it - they knew for years that tuning is a big issue yet they let it slide again and again instead fire incompetent devs who are responsible for this shit.

[Deleted]

They also, for some bizarre reason, tuned up the difficulty of normal mode in HM/BRF vs. where it had been in SoO.

I knew a raid group (from other MMOs) that came to WoW at the end of MoP due to the Flex mechanism being added. They had a fine time in SoO, doing Flex and some Normal. But in WoD they struggled in N HM, not clearing it before BRF came out, and gave up shortly after that. The idea that normal mode in WoD would be for "friends and family" guilds was a lie. Poor scaling of raid difficulty with size in flex mode probably didn't help.

Well maybe they failed at finding a correct tuning, would not be the first time, or they thought flex being too easy would not help in the social interaction they were looking for.
Also i have been told by friends that the scaling was terrible in heroic, so maybe they need more time to get the hang of the scaling in any difficulty mode.

[Osmeric]

That's anecdotal evidence but you are likely correct in that the dev's missed the mark w/ the difficulty of Normal HM/BRF. By the time they'd realized it, the game was already bleeding customers at an unprecedented rate so I think they just kind of threw their hands in their, said "Fuck it," and decided it was something which needed to be moved to the To-Do list of shit to fix in Legion.

I think we're on the same page here. You bring up another good point: the decline in subs was unprecedentedly fast this time, and Blizzard's already slow decision loop was pretty clearly not fast enough to respond. They need to fix that. It could be (I speculate here) that internal political divisions mean they have to collect enough data to make an ironclad case to the team for changes, and that just takes too long.

[Deadite]

Remove LFR = more dev time to develop other content that are more interesting for non-raiders. win/win

lol...

They have to make the raid anyway. How long do you think it takes to tune it down to LFR? I am sure removing content from a game that already has pathetic amounts of content added will be win/win.

[Deleted]

I think we're on the same page here. You bring up another good point: the decline in subs was unprecedentedly fast this time, and Blizzard's already slow decision loop was pretty clearly not fast enough to respond. They need to fix that. It could be (I speculate here) that internal political divisions mean they have to collect enough data to make an ironclad case to the team for changes, and that just takes too long.

They probably thought that 6.2 will stop the bleeding. When it came clear that was not the case
they did the same as in the previous expansion and introduced item upgrades. This time much faster.

5.4 ... 2013-09-10 SoO, Timeless Isle and 0/2 item upgrades
5.4.8 . 2014-05-19 0/4 item upgrades

6.2 ... 2015-06-23 HFC and Tanaan
6.2.3 . 2015-11-17 0/2 item upgrades

[Tomana]

well the thing is not only lfr players got screwed - anyone besides mythic raiders got screwed royaly without vaseline as they removed any other content from game besides raiding in desperate try to push people into raiding which failed completly and utterly - i bet that atm lfr is the only reason why raiding didnt got completly dissected from legion

That's what happens when you give the reins of the game to EQ neckbeards and mythic raiders.
They design raids, and then try to design everything else with the leftovers from raids (not counting leveling content, which seems to be a separate budget, only talking about endgame).

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I think we're on the same page here. You bring up another good point: the decline in subs was unprecedentedly fast this time, and Blizzard's already slow decision loop was pretty clearly not fast enough to respond. They need to fix that. It could be (I speculate here) that internal political divisions mean they have to collect enough data to make an ironclad case to the team for changes, and that just takes too long.

Yeah, I mean, it's amazing rocket science: when you provide zero world content for players, it doesn't work. Amazing, huh?
Sometimes I wonder what goes on in the heads of Blizzard's lead devs.

[Echo of Soul]

Until now at least when pretty much everyone who plays at endgame has to do it. The appeal is probably the same but the participation is higher because of lack of options.

You do realize before LFR less people raided right? Because of LFR more people have seen HFC compared to people seeing Sunwell in TBC.

Once again facts stated by blizzard.

I feel like I'm going in circles here. I state facts and people ignore them...

/LoveTheInternet.

That's what I'm saying, participation is higher.

[imzhell]

I guess its just the 80-20 rule. 20 percent of the players can only make through 80 percent of the game which makes sense. This will not make sense to everyone.

[Pieterman]

Participation may not imply success, but lack of participation (at the level needed to justify the cost of the content) does imply failure. Players are not entertained or retained by content they don't do.

You might not be, others are.

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Unfortunately, that also a problem: some raiding devs are too detached from the problems and issues of the non-raiding playerbase.

Which problems? genuine question.

[HuxNeva]

Participation may not imply success, but lack of participation (at the level needed to justify the cost of the content) does imply failure. Players are not entertained or retained by content they don't do.

Nope. I'm more entertained by knowing there is stuff out there which I have not beaten yet (and might never), than by being forced into activities that actually bring me no enjoyment just because they gated some reward behind there.

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the decline in subs was unprecedentedly fast this time, and Blizzard's already slow decision loop was pretty clearly not fast enough to respond.

True. I unsubbed for the first time. The reason was garrisons. Rewards too good to pass on, yet utterly mind numbing boring game-play. Logging in felt so much like a chore, that I just quit.

[Glorious Leader]

Remove LFR = more dev time to develop other content that are more interesting for non-raiders. win/win

Remove RAIDING= more dev time to develop other content for non raiders win/win

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You might not be, others are.

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Totally true. I know when my kids go to window.shop at Eb games at all the games they will never be able to buy and play they are totally entertained.....

[primalmatter]

That question can be asked about anything in WoW.

Why should Mythic gear make everything else just a tmogset. Why should pvp gear make everything a tmog set.

Players will progress to the point where they stop this is a known fact. For some they stop at Mythic Raiding for others its NM or HM and for some its LFR. Hell some don't even do LFR and just stop after they finish the leveling.

More options is a good thing and always has been. Legion is letting you pick your progression path and roll with it. For some that path ends with getting the Class Hall set for others its NM raiding.

I am not going to claim to know what everyone wants to do, I only know what I want and what I enjoy. When I no longer enjoy WoW I stop playing, I don't request blizzard to make anything catered to me. I do state if X doesn't change then I won't play. But that is a simple statement.

The difference between me and others is me having fun in WoW does not come at the cost of others fun. Unless your fun comes from shitting on the fun of others.

There is a small percent that feel the game should be catered to them and no one else. If giving others options comes at the cost of those subs then so be it. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. WOD is proof your only good content can not be raiding.

From what I see Legion is doing just that. Everyone now has a path of progression they can chose and it will come at the cost of that small percent being pissed or unsubbing.

You can't have a niche endgame and expect more then the niche to stay or even play it. World of Warcraft is past its prime and blizzard has made a choice. Now lets see how that choice pans out.

(This post was longer then I expected so mybad lol).

Ontopic: At this point I feel we are way offtopic, So my simple answer to the question given is this.

Yes LFR funds raiding, blizzard has even said it does.

Because it is harder then what came before it... You finally got your deep and involved non raid content and you are in a head long rush to throw it aside for lfr raid gear... why?

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Remove RAIDING= more dev time to develop other content for non raiders win/win

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Totally true. I know when my kids go to window.shop at Eb games at all the games they will never be able to buy and play they are totally entertained.....

No content save for the original wow leveling from 1-60 has provided content anywhere near as used as raiding though seems kind of foolish to throw away their number one retainer of players.

[Alydael]

That has historically been blizz's Achilles heal that new content almost has always made past content obsolete. They have just started to address this and have years of content sitting there near pointless. Maybe with timewalking this might somewhat get fixed if they add old raids to this. Be nice as we have a new raid going on an old raid is time walked and one could raid both so one doesn't get sick of raiding the same raid over and over. Just have tier pieces and maybe even like class trinkets only in current raid. A vast majority of the player base has never raided most of the old raids when they were current especially be and vanilla.

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I would say that normal and heroic now being flex has hurt raiding way more than lfr. Now memebers don't need to show up every raid not a spot will be there unlike before where there was a limit in raid spots. That has hurt my guild a ton this expansion. One night 15 show up the next 20 plus the next less than 10. Being flex has made it where ones raid spot is something they want to or need to keep. But let's keep making new excuses to blame lfr.

As for new content has made past content obsolete: all they need to do is introduce scaling. They dropped the ball totally on that one. Scale everything, including the rewards and all the content suddenly becomes relevant again.

As for your example about flex hurting raiding. In your example, you could raid on all three of those nights without sitting someone. How did that hurt your team or guild? I remember when it was 10 or 25 man set, people would have to sit. Most players are not going to sit long before they leave the team and guild...

[Jtbrig7390]

That's what I'm saying, participation is higher.

I mite have read what you said wrong then and if so mybad.

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Because it is harder then what came before it... You finally got your deep and involved non raid content and you are in a head long rush to throw it aside for lfr raid gear... why?

Who said I was throwing it away for the gear or at all? I enjoy LFR for many reasons and one of those is just beating the shit out of a boss in a big group.

[Jensxo]

Let's be honest here...

Would Karazhan or Black temple be as fun if they had 4 raid difficulties...think about that for a second casuals. Imagine if Karazhan had 4 raid difficulties. It's piss poor design by Blizzard and it's not going to change because this game is awful now and isn't even an MMO anymore. You log in, click on menu's, rarely have the need to interact with other players, gear is given to you without any effort. Content is completed by everyone at the same time more or less and people complain there is 'nothing' to do. Maybe because the entire fucking game is so godamn easy now and can now be completed within 3 weeks of starting a fresh character.

Genuinely sick of casuals. Sick of people who don't like difficulty. Sick of people who don't want to devote time to WoW. Sick of the dumbass argument 'we don't have time to play'....THEN DONT WHINE AND BITCH to Blizzard to change the game to what you want. THe game was 1000x better when it took a long time to do stuff and exclusivity was a thing.

[Baine]

Nah the removing one tier lets them create larger raids.

I was referring to the size of raids before LFR. Some of them were large but adding LFR added another reason to create large raids.

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Let's be honest here...

Would Karazhan or Black temple be as fun if they had 4 raid difficulties...think about that for a second casuals. Imagine if Karazhan had 4 raid difficulties. It's piss poor design by Blizzard and it's not going to change because this game is awful now and isn't even an MMO anymore. You log in, click on menu's, rarely have the need to interact with other players, gear is given to you without any effort. Content is completed by everyone at the same time more or less and people complain there is 'nothing' to do. Maybe because the entire fucking game is so godamn easy now and can now be completed within 3 weeks of starting a fresh character.

Genuinely sick of casuals. Sick of people who don't like difficulty. Sick of people who don't want to devote time to WoW. Sick of the dumbass argument 'we don't have time to play'....THEN DONT WHINE AND BITCH to Blizzard to change the game to what you want. THe game was 1000x better when it took a long time to do stuff and exclusivity was a thing.

The problem is you need those people who want easy content to justify Blizzard to spend so much on larger raids.