Does the 'LFR pays for Raid Development' argument make sense?

[Sencha]

Remove RAIDING= more dev time to develop other content for non raiders win/win.

Yes we know you don't like raids.

[Blayze]

Let's be honest here...

Would Karazhan or Black temple be as fun if they had 4 raid difficulties...think about that for a second casuals. Imagine if Karazhan had 4 raid difficulties. It's piss poor design by Blizzard and it's not going to change because this game is awful now and isn't even an MMO anymore. You log in, click on menu's, rarely have the need to interact with other players, gear is given to you without any effort. Content is completed by everyone at the same time more or less and people complain there is 'nothing' to do. Maybe because the entire fucking game is so godamn easy now and can now be completed within 3 weeks of starting a fresh character.

Genuinely sick of casuals. Sick of people who don't like difficulty. Sick of people who don't want to devote time to WoW. Sick of the dumbass argument 'we don't have time to play'....THEN DONT WHINE AND BITCH to Blizzard to change the game to what you want. THe game was 1000x better when it took a long time to do stuff and exclusivity was a thing.

Then why are you playing Babby's First MMO?

[Sylvestra]

Group finder is all well and good, but it doesn't provide automated matchmaking for raiding. Access is community gated and policed...which isn't a good thing. This is why LFR is still necessary.

But it is a good thing.

[Deleted]

I was referring to the size of raids before LFR. Some of them were large but adding LFR added another reason to create large raids.

- - - Updated - - -



The problem is you need those people who want easy content to justify Blizzard to spend so much on larger raids.

No we dont need them. Those players what he talks about are not majority of this game. They are small bottomg % of playerbase what want this. Real wow casuals are middle 80% and those players doesnt have content in current game. These are players what casualy played during vannil, TBC and WOTLK but dont play now becvouse game changed too much to please bottom 10%.

It is funny how we didnt need those players back in TBC or vannila but for some random reason we need them now.

[primalmatter]

I mite have read what you said wrong then and if so mybad.

- - - Updated - - -

Who said I was throwing it away for the gear or at all? I enjoy LFR for many reasons and one of those is just beating the shit out of a boss in a big group.

I don't know it seems wasteful to me at least that it will over shadow nearly everything else and become raid or die again... Why bother putting so much work into the world when lfr is going to replace everything regardless.

[Jtbrig7390]

I don't know it seems wasteful to me at least that it will over shadow nearly everything else and become raid or die again... Why bother putting so much work into the world when lfr is going to replace everything regardless.

Doesn't need to be raid or die.

LFR can be around and be useful along with other content.

Hell look at FFXIV's mode and how they handle raids/dungeons and so on. If people would step outside the box (WoW) they would see it can be done. Legion is proving it can be done look at all the content they are bringing with it.

[primalmatter]

Doesn't need to be raid or die.

LFR can be around and be useful along with other content.

Hell look at FFXIV's mode and how they handle raids/dungeons and so on. If people would step outside the box (WoW) they would see it can be done. Legion is proving it can be done look at all the content they are bringing with it.

Right but all that content but mythic + and normal + raiding becomes irrelevant again after lfr comes out... it just seems weird for you of all people to want raid or die.

[Tomana]

Which problems? genuine question.

Absence of open-world content (and more generally, non-raid content) worth mentioning, chiefly.

- - - Updated - - -

Genuinely sick of casuals. Sick of people who don't like difficulty. Sick of people who don't want to devote time to WoW. Sick of the dumbass argument 'we don't have time to play'....THEN DONT WHINE AND BITCH to Blizzard to change the game to what you want. THe game was 1000x better when it took a long time to do stuff and exclusivity was a thing.

Get a goddamn job and see if you'll still have enough time to play. Do you really think that most former WoW players are OK with not having enough time to play? Well, no, but guess what, times change and games editors have to adapt. And, you know, not design games around people who can play 8+ hours a day.

- - - Updated - - -

It is funny how we didnt need those players back in TBC or vannila but for some random reason we need them now.

Google "customer retention".

[Glorious Leader]

Yes we know you don't like raids.

It was more to point out that removing lfr doesn't do much but removing raids would free up alot of design space.

[Sencha]

It was more to point out that removing lfr doesn't do much but removing raids would free up alot of design space.

It's like removing the engine of a car to free up a lot of engineer time and costs.

[Seefer]

Considering they made epic raids long before LFR................no it doesn't make sense, it is just something morons misquote "We want people to see our content" as to slam raiders.

[Tomana]

Considering they made epic raids long before LFR................no it doesn't make sense, it is just something morons misquote "We want people to see our content" as to slam raiders.

Yes, but it cost them a metric crapton and devs got smacked around for that. Because it doesn't take a grand finance controller to figure out that designing a raid that only 2% of players will see (hi, Shamanwell Plateau) is completely retarded.

[Jewsco]

As for new content has made past content obsolete: all they need to do is introduce scaling. They dropped the ball totally on that one. Scale everything, including the rewards and all the content suddenly becomes relevant again.

As for your example about flex hurting raiding. In your example, you could raid on all three of those nights without sitting someone. How did that hurt your team or guild? I remember when it was 10 or 25 man set, people would have to sit. Most players are not going to sit long before they leave the team and guild...

Did you raid this expansion? That was my whole point no one has a chance or threat to sit. So no raid spots are in demand due to this people show up when it is convient for them. Add in the raids have all been tuned to be much easier win more people raid groups want to take as many as possible. So boss fights were plain near impossible 10 man. There wouldn't be enough people to soak up the constant aoe damage going out. But if you had 20 plus heck even 15 they were easy. So if people showed up you took them there was no consequences for poor raid attendance like in the past.
Once saw others doing it guess what? They did it too.

[Pieterman]

Absence of open-world content (and more generally, non-raid content) worth mentioning, chiefly.

That's a WoD problem though, and raiders also suffered from that. The majority of raiders love doing open world content, there's few that exclusively logon to raid. I actually unsubbed because the only activity left was doing mythic HFC for 15 months.

I was inquiring for problems that only affected non-raiders.

[MoanaLisa]

I don't know it seems wasteful to me at least that it will over shadow nearly everything else and become raid or die again... Why bother putting so much work into the world when lfr is going to replace everything regardless.

Because a significant number of people don't want to raid at organized levels and don't care to run LFR more than once if that. If you are going to attempt to keep those people around you have to do something to keep people busy in the world with an actual reward structure that keeps it even with at least LFR if not more. It might seem unimaginable but it's true.

[Deadite]

Considering they made epic raids long before LFR................no it doesn't make sense, it is just something morons misquote "We want people to see our content" as to slam raiders.

Bollocks. You are some guy that just made an epic raid. Would you want 2% of players to enjoy your hard work or 70%? No one cares that you poor persecuted raiders get raids. It is you guys that get upset that other people can see them.

This is the exact quote from Hazzikostas.

LFR justifies the creation of more raid content when millions of players are able to see content. Only a few thousand people actually saw Kel'thuzad, but millions saw Deathwing. The reason Mists of Pandaria is starting with 18 bosses and adding larger raid tiers than we have had previously is because many players are going to see the raids through LFR

[primalmatter]

Because a significant number of people don't want to raid at organized levels and don't care to run LFR more than once if that. If you are going to attempt to keep those people around you have to do something to keep people busy in the world with an actual reward structure that keeps it even with at least LFR if not more. It might seem unimaginable but it's true.

Right... but what benefit is there to making everything they can hope to achieve less then that of running lfr... That is the part that gets me. Blizzard has bent over backwards to carve a end game out for players like that yet they seem just as rushed to turn it into hunting rares in WoD sure you can but there isn't much point to it.

It just doesn't seem like a good idea.It begs the question of well... why? Why even bother making all this content if at the end of the day we are back at "Just run lfr?"

[Kallisto]

With that logic, we might aswell fire the designers and get the investors designing the game. But during the bigger spikes of revenue from WoW there was no LFR. Coincidence? I think not.

Debunked like the post about car. Or let's bring this around. Why was Vanilla - Wrath bringing in more subs than leaving. Nothing to do with raids I'd say but more and more build up towards the Arthas issue. Vanilla/BC/Wrath are all in all a sequel to WC3/TFT. WC3 players wanting to end the story arc got to Arthas. Many fought and defeated him or were around when he fell and then that's it. End of their story and for many the end of the game. Or do you outright deny the WC3 pull that was an obvious factor within Vanilla-Wrath? Cataclysm saw sub losses from the begining. Subs finally balancing out once LFR was introduced. Before LFR Cataclysm lost 2 million subs, after LFR it lost under 100k.

[Tomana]

I was inquiring for problems that only affected non-raiders.

Well, if you have the raids to do, at least that's something. For players stuck with world content and LFR, it has much more impact.

- - - Updated - - -

It just doesn't seem like a good idea.It begs the question of well... why? Why even bother making all this content if at the end of the day we are back at "Just run lfr?"

Well, maybe world content should award better gear than LFR? But if that happens, all the raiders will be up in arms and whining on the forums about how raiding is getting devalued. -_-

[Alydael]

Did you raid this expansion? That was my whole point no one has a chance or threat to sit. So no raid spots are in demand due to this people show up when it is convient for them. Add in the raids have all been tuned to be much easier win more people raid groups want to take as many as possible. So boss fights were plain near impossible 10 man. There wouldn't be enough people to soak up the constant aoe damage going out. But if you had 20 plus heck even 15 they were easy. So if people showed up you took them there was no consequences for poor raid attendance like in the past.
Once saw others doing it guess what? They did it too.

I have raided steadily since BC. We used to have to cancel raid nights sometimes when not enough showed. Or spend time looking for more. Since they introduced flex tech, that hasn't happened. It has also enabled us to bring along some players new to raiding who might not have been able to come when the limits were 25 or 10. On farm content, we even grab a few from the lfg tool just to meet new people (and potential new guild recruits). We made a game out of it, we used to vote on who to bring based on the toon name. So it has been a good thing overall for my guild.

Overall, I could see how some bad players might be able to float around and still raid without improving themselves since you do not have to content for a spot, but nothing is perfect. Overall, I would say it was a good thing.