[Legion] Shadow Priest Discussion

[deviantcultist]

Even if it doesn't reset you can use it every X attempts, it's not like legacy/mindspike add anything meaningful in terms of dps. OFC it would be much better with normal reset on wipe .

I think it will be made to reset on wipe. That is more or less the vibe of these cds, isn't it? By the way, anyone figured out exactly how the new talent changing tool works?

[Ilir]

I think it will be made to reset on wipe. That is more or less the vibe of these cds, isn't it? By the way, anyone figured out exactly how the new talent changing tool works?

u not in a rested area u not changing talents. (unless you use a scribe's tome that basically acts as a portable rested area)

[Kretan]

LOTV is absolutely a substantial dps increase with 4t19.

This is true. If ever there was a situation where it at least had a shot to be this would be it. Although, would it really increase the number of void forms you get? People say you get more void forms with legacy, but that's because you can't cap the inanity out from 60. With 4t19 I think capping is a given and void form length would be the same as non legacy.

[deviantcultist]

basically acts as a portable rested area

Any idea for how long? For example, is it intended to be used in between fights for the group to change talents? Or is it used once to allow that for a bigger/whole session?

[RsinRC]

This is true. If ever there was a situation where it at least had a shot to be this would be it. Although, would it really increase the number of void forms you get? People say you get more void forms with legacy, but that's because you can't cap the inanity out from 60. With 4t19 I think capping is a given and void form length would be the same as non legacy.

Lotv can be capped the moment you hit lvl 110 from 60. You dont get out of vf sooner than normal but you do stay in vf longer throughout the fight. Idk where this you cant stay in vf longer with lotv come from.

Void Lord paired with lotv /thumbsup.

[Deleted]

Any idea for how long? For example, is it intended to be used in between fights for the group to change talents? Or is it used once to allow that for a bigger/whole session?

5 minutes according to wowhead which is in line with the other items that can be used by a raid group (feasts, etc.).
Stupid solution to a non-problem imho.

[snaxattax]

This is true. If ever there was a situation where it at least had a shot to be this would be it. Although, would it really increase the number of void forms you get? People say you get more void forms with legacy, but that's because you can't cap the inanity out from 60. With 4t19 I think capping is a given and void form length would be the same as non legacy.

they would necessarily be longer just from the basic logic that you are no longer wasting all of your 4t19 resource burst, but would still be at 100 insanity once 4t19 fades.

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Stupid solution to a non-problem imho.

you must be new here...

if only they could pair it with a nerf to mind sear and a buff to sunfire.

[Kretan]

Lotv can be capped the moment you hit lvl 110 from 60. You dont get out of vf sooner than normal but you do stay in vf longer throughout the fight. Idk where this you cant stay in vf longer with lotv come from.

Void Lord paired with lotv /thumbsup.

Someone on the official forums showed that legacy of the void gave you shorter voidforms than non legacy, but you physically got more void forms with legacy than without. So, in essence, legacy gave you more numerous short void forms while non legacy gave you fewer but longer voidforms, and it was because of the insanity you started from on entering voidform. I didn't test this, but the person had a lot of data to back it up. If that logic were true, capping out 100 insanity with the tier bonus would give you the fewer long void forms of non legacy. That's where I am coming from at least.

[Ilir]

I don't think this holds true with the 4p since without lotv you're basically wasting a lot of insanity and with lotv you get in sooner, don't waste as much and when the 4p ends... I think both non lotv and lotv vf will be at 100 insanity or something. So Lotv wins there. Then you add in the legendary shoulders (the sooner you enter VF, the more stacks you have) + void lord... it kinda adds up... not to mention that during execute you can enter vf so fast.

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So i guess it really comes down to : how long the fight will last. If the fight lasts long enough, I think Lotv will win because you basically have more VF uptime (with 4p) but if the fight is short I think StM will be the clear winner.

In the end it will just be a matter of "can Lotv increased VF (with 4p etc) beat StM dps ?".

[Tanned]

Lotv can be capped the moment you hit lvl 110 from 60. You dont get out of vf sooner than normal but you do stay in vf longer throughout the fight. Idk where this you cant stay in vf longer with lotv come from.

Void Lord paired with lotv /thumbsup.

4pT19 absolutely works really well with Void Lord and Legacy of the Void and is a very large DPS increase. I haven't been able to test 4pT19 yet, but I suspect that would also alter the value of Mastery for Shadow and make up somewhat for how weak the stat is. The problem is that 4pt19 is not available out the gate; so we will be progressing in Mythic Dungeons and (presumably) Mythic Emerald Dream without it. We have literally 4 months of time where we need to make due in other ways. It matters to think about this situation.

Without 4pt19, the only way I'm able to max out Insanity during Voidform with the Legacy of the Void Talent is to have [Shadow Word: Void] banked. I'll generally only do that when I'm trying to build up big Void Torrents at the end of my Voidform (e.g., I'm going into voidform with 20+ seconds left on my Void Torrent CD). It is unclear to me that we will be taking [Shadow Word: Void] much because of how strong ToF is.

Without 4pt19, it's a matter of simple math as to why you get less stacks of Voidform with Legacy of the Void (although I think the number of extra stacks you can get without Legacy of the Void is probably overstated). Your Insanity generators are limited and by 10 stacks you're already losing more insanity per second than Mind Blast generates over a 1.5s base (reduced a bunch by haste at that point, but unlikely below 1s) cast and by 18 stacks you're losing more insanity than Void Bolt generates over a 1.5s base (reduced a bunch by haste etc) GCD. Anything past 15 stacks and you're operating at a net average loss (not counting Shadow Word: Void). To get to twenty stacks of Voidform you need about 255 Insanity. If you start with 60 in the bank, you need to generate 195. If you start with 100 in the bank, you need to generate 155. Since your Insanity generators are limited, and you're operating at a net loss, you will fall out of Voidform at least three stacks earlier with Legacy of the Void than you would without; and those extra three stacks will be enough time to get another Voidbolt or two in (of course, you will probably get back into Voidform earlier with Legacy of the Void than without but that isn't what I'm addressing here).

Two other things to note. There is some Insanity loss without Legacy of the Void due to Insanity overcapping (e.g., unless your first cast in Voidform without Legacy is Mind Blast or Mind Flay/Mind Spike, you will overcap on Insanity without Legacy of the Void). Also, with Legacy of the Void you are more likely to cast SW:V inside Voidform, whereas without Legacy of the Void you are more likely to cast SW:V outside of Voidform. I don't know enough to say what ends up being better for certain, but anyone painting this as a really simple picture isn't thinking about it enough.

[Ilir]

But yeah basically I think StM is still completely OP compared to the rest.

[Kretan]

I don't think this holds true with the 4p since without lotv you're basically wasting a lot of insanity and with lotv you get in sooner, don't waste as much and when the 4p ends... I think both non lotv and lotv vf will be at 100 insanity or something. So Lotv wins there. Then you add in the legendary shoulders (the sooner you enter VF, the more stacks you have) + void lord... it kinda adds up... not to mention that during execute you can enter vf so fast.

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So i guess it really comes down to : how long the fight will last. If the fight lasts long enough, I think Lotv will win because you basically have more VF uptime (with 4p) but if the fight is short I think StM will be the clear winner.

In the end it will just be a matter of "can Lotv increased VF (with 4p etc) beat StM dps ?".

I think the answer will end up being no because you have to remember that while the 4 piece gives these void bolt flurries, surrender to madness will also give you more void bolts because the stupid high haste reduces the cd of void bolt so much. We will have to see how it works with void lord though in the end. This is more of a debate of void lord vs reaper of souls than anything. Legacy just happens to be the default talent if you aren't taking surrender right now.

[RsinRC]

4pT19 absolutely works really well with Void Lord and Legacy of the Void and is a very large DPS increase. I haven't been able to test 4pT19 yet, but I suspect that would also alter the value of Mastery for Shadow and make up somewhat for how weak the stat is. The problem is that 4pt19 is not available out the gate; so we will be progressing in Mythic Dungeons and (presumably) Mythic Emerald Dream without it. We have literally 4 months of time where we need to make due in other ways. It matters to think about this situation.

Without 4pt19, the only way I'm able to max out Insanity during Voidform with the Legacy of the Void Talent is to have [Shadow Word: Void] banked. I'll generally only do that when I'm trying to build up big Void Torrents at the end of my Voidform (e.g., I'm going into voidform with 20+ seconds left on my Void Torrent CD). It is unclear to me that we will be taking [Shadow Word: Void] much because of how strong ToF is.

Without 4pt19, it's a matter of simple math as to why you get less stacks of Voidform with Legacy of the Void (although I think the number of extra stacks you can get without Legacy of the Void is probably overstated). Your Insanity generators are limited and by 10 stacks you're already losing more insanity per second than Mind Blast generates over a 1.5s base (reduced a bunch by haste at that point, but unlikely below 1s) cast and by 18 stacks you're losing more insanity than Void Bolt generates over a 1.5s base (reduced a bunch by haste etc) GCD. Anything past 15 stacks and you're operating at a net average loss (not counting Shadow Word: Void). To get to twenty stacks of Voidform you need about 255 Insanity. If you start with 60 in the bank, you need to generate 195. If you start with 100 in the bank, you need to generate 155. Since your Insanity generators are limited, and you're operating at a net loss, you will fall out of Voidform at least three stacks earlier with Legacy of the Void than you would without; and those extra three stacks will be enough time to get another Voidbolt or two in (of course, you will probably get back into Voidform earlier with Legacy of the Void than without but that isn't what I'm addressing here).

Two other things to note. There is some Insanity loss without Legacy of the Void due to Insanity overcapping (e.g., unless your first cast in Voidform without Legacy is Mind Blast or Mind Flay/Mind Spike, you will overcap on Insanity without Legacy of the Void). Also, with Legacy of the Void you are more likely to cast SW:V inside Voidform, whereas without Legacy of the Void you are more likely to cast SW:V outside of Voidform. I don't know enough to say what ends up being better for certain, but anyone painting this as a really simple picture isn't thinking about it enough.

Granted math isnt my strong suit but im very good at feeling things out with practicality.

Youre saying you will not be able to stay in vf as long with lotv because you start out at 60 instead of 100.

What im saying is, at 100 you're already over capping. With lotv you instead go vf at 60 but you will still overcap initially but the rate you lose insanity is the same with both lotv or no lotv. The true difference with both is that you will be able to enter vf faster and more frequent with lotv. If youre skeptical, instead of mathing it out just log on and see how long you can stay in vf with lotv using the same in-vf rotation while either not talented or stm but not actually using stm.

They should be an average of an equal amount of time while inside vf. And shorter OoVF time (out of) with lotv.

[Kretan]

Granted math isnt my strong suit but im very good at feeling things out with practicality.

Youre saying you will not be able to stay in vf as long with lotv because you start out at 60 instead of 100.

What im saying is, at 100 you're already over capping. With lotv you instead go vf at 60 but you will still overcap initially but the rate you lose insanity is the same with both lotv or no lotv. The true difference with both is that you will be able to enter vf faster and more frequent with lotv. If youre skeptical, instead of mathing it out just log on and see how long you can stay in vf with lotv using the same in-vf rotation while either not talented or stm but not actually using stm.

They should be an average of an equal amount of time while inside vf. And shorter OoVF time (out of) with lotv.

Here is the quote:

I ran Lua code to track my Voidform up-time without using Shadow Word: Death. With Mind Spike my uptime was 63% and with Legacy of the Void it was 66%. You stay in Voidform longer by starting at 100 insanity than you do at 60, but at 60 you go in and out more often. Both scenarios are about equal. It's nice that I can enter Voidform earlier with Legacy of the Void, but it does almost nothing to increase my DPS. Even Mind Spike doesn't do that much more than Mind Flay. Neither talent is particularly amazing for overall DPS. I imagine everybody is going to take Surrender to Madness for raiding. Legacy of the Void and Mind Spike need some love.

The difference is very small between legacy and non legacy. 4 piece tier will likely give it a little more oomph though and only if you take void lord.

[RsinRC]

Thats looks to me like a vs between MS and lotv. MS is def ST oriented and lotv is more versatile. The point i was trying to make is that lotv vs no lotv VFs last about the same time but you go vf it more frequently just like he said. But he doesnt put into account that with either 60 or 100 you still reach 100 with lotv. Your insanity still drains the same the moment you enter vf wether you start at 60 or 100 yet you still reach 100 and continue to overcap a bit when you go in vf at 60 and still continue to lose insanity the same progressive rate as if you start at 100. And if it is shorter i bet its not by much at all and the more frequent VFs are a net gain anyway.

Its not as obvious to people but the lvl 100 talents are all dps increases to not having a lvl 100 talent. Mindspike is just awkward, lotv is a talent that most arent sure of its main purpose and stm has a super strong boost when and if activated and used correctly.

Mindspike should win out on stritcly st fights that last dramatically long or super short. (StM is stealing the spotlight rn tho)
Lotv is for everything else. Multitarget, short, long, lots of adds with as and soi etc
Stm is stupid strong tho so everyone wants to use it. But it has the biggest draw backs. You have to know the fight before using this talent seriously.

[davesignal]

Surrender to Madness does seem very much like a talent you only pull out when you know a fight like the back of your hand.. it's great when you do, but I sure as hell wouldn't use it on my first pull of any given fight.

[Tanned]

Granted math isnt my strong suit but im very good at feeling things out with practicality.

...

With lotv you instead go vf at 60 but you will still overcap initially but the rate you lose insanity is the same with both lotv or no lotv. The true difference with both is that you will be able to enter vf faster and more frequent with lotv. If youre skeptical, instead of mathing it out just log on and see how long you can stay in vf with lotv using the same in-vf rotation while either not talented or stm but not actually using stm.

I'm okay with anecdotal evidence; sometimes "feeling things out with practicality" leads to improving how you simulate/math things so it's important to pay attention to actual play. That said, please understand the limits of your own experience and skill and try and accommodate the thinking of people with similar experience and skill and different opinions. If something is outside of your toolset, don't automatically discount it.

Assuming similar RNG and consistently good play, you will get at least 3 more stacks of Voidform starting at 100 insanity before going into Voidform. That's three seconds extra duration. It isn't that much. It also isn't non-existent. I have made no claims about the relative strength or weakness of that extra time in Voidform or not.

[RsinRC]

That's fine, I'm not discounting you in the slightest. I am however trying to understand you.
Is that what the math is telling you or is that what it's averaging out to be in-game?
With that said, wouldn't it be more beneficial having access to VF and all of it's perks more often in an encounter beat a suggested "3" more stacks of VF with every transition?

Lastly, what are you comparing LoTV with for us to have this discussion? Is it a general statement about LotV? I ask because so far this is only making LotV sound like a lackluster talent without accounting what it actually does bring to the table.

[Deleted]

Surrender to Madness does seem very much like a talent you only pull out when you know a fight like the back of your hand.. it's great when you do, but I sure as hell wouldn't use it on my first pull of any given fight.

Why? Early pulls on most bosses won't last long and you will die anyway so why wouldn't you use stm and see more of the fight beacuse of higher dps?

[Aeriel]

Why? Early pulls on most bosses won't last long and you will die anyway so why wouldn't you use stm and see more of the fight beacuse of higher dps?

I would not use it on the first attempt, but maybe on the second or third if we are pushing a phase change. It is a bit of personal preference, but it is powerful enough to push a DPS check or move into another phase that you would not have otherwise. Holding it for "insurance" during progression vs using it to hope to meet a break point.