[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[Taeldorian]

not enough, not even close.
you people you, too much politeness and caution.

If he was here I'm sure we'd have a wonderful time, but no point in getting banned on the forums. He'd win in that case.

[Morally Grey Storm]

If he was here I'm sure we'd have a wonderful time, but no point in getting banned on the forums. He'd win in that case.

If a wrote a polite, curt message, could anyone of you betaguys redirect it to dear Bryiah?)

Something along the lines of: "All that you are capable of is to perform the most basic carnal pleasures for me and my pets. All of this I will repeat while shaving thick monkey fur on the back of your mother. Adios."

[Teleros]

Just easier to link to this old clip, no?

[Ulthane]

Sounds good to me, can't wait.

Going to try and just do a compile that features the Art of War proc discussed here and Judgment. Going into.

-Abilities, Talents, Artifact
-What rotation will look like
-It's strengths
-Its weaknesses
-How it will work in multiple PvE scenarios.
-How it will work in PvP and why it won't be op.
-Blackburner ideas that could potentially be used later.
-Why all of this fits with current design and model.

[ruiizu]

So I just wanted to weigh in after my brief absence on the "Judgment applies a debuff" model.

At first I actually had figured Judgment would simply apply the Judgment effect to the target and Templar's Verdict would light up. You'd just dig into it until the debuff wore off. But after thinking about Ulthane's "stacks" model, I started to believe there could be other interesting ways to play with that.

Templar's Verdict could indeed consume 1 stack to do additional damage. By nature, I would suspect Judgment would apply 2-3 stacks, unless perhaps you have Greater Judgment (maybe an extra stack).

But I also was thinking about Execution Sentence. If this continued to exist, could it not just consume 1 stack of Execution Sentence every second for its duration? It would be a way to consume excess stacks if you have a bunch on the target and can't use them up fast enough with Templar's Verdict. This might also assume that Judgment costs 3 Holy Power, up to a maximum of 5 Holy Power or something.

[Snegovik]

So I just wanted to weigh in after my brief absence on the "Judgment applies a debuff" model.

At first I actually had figured Judgment would simply apply the Judgment effect to the target and Templar's Verdict would light up. You'd just dig into it until the debuff wore off. But after thinking about Ulthane's "stacks" model, I started to believe there could be other interesting ways to play with that.

Templar's Verdict could indeed consume 1 stack to do additional damage. By nature, I would suspect Judgment would apply 2-3 stacks, unless perhaps you have Greater Judgment (maybe an extra stack).

But I also was thinking about Execution Sentence. If this continued to exist, could it not just consume 1 stack of Execution Sentence every second for its duration? It would be a way to consume excess stacks if you have a bunch on the target and can't use them up fast enough with Templar's Verdict. This might also assume that Judgment costs 3 Holy Power, up to a maximum of 5 Holy Power or something.

But what would be the benefit/difference having lets say 3 stacks (TV/DS/ES eats 1 stack away) oppose to having a 6 sec window for finishers? The only benefit I can see (given stacks' duration is greater than 6 sac) is you can have longer time to use 3 finishers oppose to 6 sec, but from PvP pov we don't have issue since our judgement duration is extended. Not that i am against your idea, just trying to brain storm ur idea =)

P.S. @Storm the Sorrow check out latest Savix's legion pvp video, he is playing prot (i know we are all Rets here) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyJTC0_aSlE but Prot got a very cool talent from last row in PvP Talent tree, basically when you use Holy Pony, you become immune to cc and you push ppl back as you run through them, i mean THIS is FUN thing to have in pvp...why do prots get all the cool toys. I am sure Storm even you cant deny that Prot's version of Holy Pony is very useful in pvp with a push back.

[Ulthane]

Aaaaand here we go

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...21?page=19#371

- - - Updated - - -

So I just wanted to weigh in after my brief absence on the "Judgment applies a debuff" model.

At first I actually had figured Judgment would simply apply the Judgment effect to the target and Templar's Verdict would light up. You'd just dig into it until the debuff wore off. But after thinking about Ulthane's "stacks" model, I started to believe there could be other interesting ways to play with that.

Templar's Verdict could indeed consume 1 stack to do additional damage. By nature, I would suspect Judgment would apply 2-3 stacks, unless perhaps you have Greater Judgment (maybe an extra stack).

But I also was thinking about Execution Sentence. If this continued to exist, could it not just consume 1 stack of Execution Sentence every second for its duration? It would be a way to consume excess stacks if you have a bunch on the target and can't use them up fast enough with Templar's Verdict. This might also assume that Judgment costs 3 Holy Power, up to a maximum of 5 Holy Power or something.

Did a follow up on the beta forums. Did not think about that with Execution Sentence >< I more or less suggested it as a window that when you did damage it stored damage then unleashed on the target.

- - - Updated - - -
@Taeldorian The tidbit posted up on the beta forums is more or less compiling the art of war ability. Some wanted a proc, others could want consistency but the example was put to hopefully trigger discussion about what we actually do need and the proper solutions.

[Ciric-Wildhammer]

If a wrote a polite, curt message, could anyone of you betaguys redirect it to dear Bryiah?)

Something along the lines of: "All that you are capable of is to perform the most basic carnal pleasures for me and my pets. All of this I will repeat while shaving thick monkey fur on the back of your mother. Adios."

Every time I see her post I feel Ret die slowly, like a cancer eating away at the bones.

[BinderOfTheLight]

Aaaaand here we go

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...21?page=19#371

Ulthane, I read your ret design feedback and proposal on the bnet forums. Simply amazing. Scaling, synergy between abilities, adaptable rotational gameplay, class fantasy... you are obviously passionate about Retribution.

I would play your version of Ret in a heartbeat. It feels like the fun version of the spec that I've always wanted to play all of these years.

[Ulthane]

Ulthane, I read your ret design feedback and proposal on the bnet forums. Simply amazing. Scaling, synergy between abilities, adaptable rotational gameplay, class fantasy... you are obviously passionate about Retribution.

I would play your version of Ret in a heartbeat. It feels like the fun version of the spec that I've always wanted to play all of these years.

I really really appreciate that, the build comes from view points of nearly everyone in the feedback forum and in here on top of my own personal DnD experiences. Lots of work went into it hoping Blizz reads it and takes it to heart.

- - - Updated - - -

Post by Solsacra
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...21?page=20#382

Really disappointed to see, that my favourite BoJ talent Blade of Wrath seems to be a damage loss over taking no talent for Blade of Justice.
Good job, Blizzard. Build in some more traps for the average player like me please.

Perhaps taking NO talent at all is the best solution? Nah, now i know: not taking ret is the best solution.

Sorry for any hyperbole. I'm really really p*ssed right now.

Which is why im shoving ret essays down their throat.

[Snegovik]

Aaaaand here we go

Good post mate, my favorite part of your idea that we can select any mount from our collection to use instead Holy Pony, i really love this idea, id rather charge enemies on my ZG tiger than on some pony...whom are u going to be more afraid of? a nice-cuddly pony or a hungry-blood thirsty tiger ';..;'.
Also commented on ur post on the official thread, i hope the more Rets like it, the higher chance Devs will take a serious look over ur ideas.

[Ulthane]

Good post mate, my favorite part of your idea that we can select any mount from our collection to use instead Holy Pony, i really love this idea, id rather charge enemies on my ZG tiger than on some pony...whom are u going to be more afraid of? a nice-cuddly pony or a hungry-blood thirsty tiger ';..;'.
Also commented on ur post on the official thread, i hope the more Rets like it, the higher chance Devs will take a serious look over ur ideas.

Thanks honestly at this point I think if we want anything done we need to kind of rally to at least something. Best I can do honestly.

[Ulthane]

And I really appreciate that.:-)

All of you posting on the official forum...except a certain human female paladin.

xD hahahaha

[Teleros]

Really disappointed to see, that my favourite BoJ talent Blade of Wrath seems to be a damage loss over taking no talent for Blade of Justice.

I would assume this is just a case of numbers needing tweaking though. It shouldn't be hard to bump up the numbers to the point where the shorter CD & Holy damage of BoW is superior to 405% weapon damage every 12secs.

At the moment, assuming zero haste, that they're both used on CD, and that the boss has 30% damage reduction from armour...

Baseline Blade of Justice: 23.625% weapon damage per second, 10HP/min
Blade of Wrath: 15% weapon damage per second, 15HP/min

Baseline BoJ deals 57.5% more damage per second, but generates 33% less Holy Power.

Note of course that if baseline Blade of Justice is superior to BoW, then Virtue's Blade will be even better because of the increased critical hit damage.

No idea how Divine Hammer compares, but frankly I'm not sure I want to take it anyway, given it only generates 1 Holy Power and my muscle memory will soon be insisting my BoJ keybind generates 2 :P .

[Deleted]

So just read through the official thread and I have to agree with @Storm the Sorrow that you let that Bryiah thing off too easy @Thete. Thankfully someone pointed out the difference between HP and Rage nearly popped vein ... There is a fundamental difference between active and passive resource building.
@Ulthane sometime back I posted a suggestion to split up our mastery into a building and spending buff tied to 2 spells. If you remember my aim was to smooth out our DMG distribution and to prevent the gap between our builders and spender to grow to far and making target switches to feel not horrendously punishing as it is now.
Exo buffing builders by x% , Judge buffing spenders by y%, each buff is up 6 seconds, Exo&Judge 12 sec base cool down.
Not sure if it was widely disliked by you lot or if it just vanished into the deeps of this thread. Could be because I´m on the ignore list of half of the community. But not sure about this.^^

[Morally Grey Storm]

So just read through the official thread and I have to agree with @Storm the Sorrow that you let that Bryiah thing off too easy @Thete. Thankfully someone pointed out the difference between HP and Rage nearly popped vein ... There is a fundamental difference between active and passive resource building.
@Ulthane sometime back I posted a suggestion to split up our mastery into a building and spending buff tied to 2 spells. If you remember my aim was to smooth out our DMG distribution and to prevent the gap between our builders and spender to grow to far and making target switches to feel not horrendously punishing as it is now.
Exo buffing builders by x% , Judge buffing spenders by y%, each buff is up 6 seconds, Exo&Judge 12 sec base cool down.
Not sure if it was widely disliked by you lot or if it just vanished into the deeps of this thread. Could be because I´m on the ignore list of half of the community. But not sure about this.^^

oh trust me, you're not.
You're not not a poison dwarf even close enough.

[PaladinBash]

Damn Thete destroyed Bryiah in that beta thread. Not bad for someone who never PVPs.

It makes me glad to see some of you guys speaking sense and wisdom on the forums and sticking with it. I doubt it'll have any great impact but at least someone's saying something other than the nonsense a few people are parroting there.

[Celebhil]

This may be anecdotal, but I noticed a similar dilemna regarding how crusaders played in endgame diablo 3, the generators for "holy wrath" were very weak, while the spenders hit like a truck, except you cant really generate wrath fast; a good deal of the endgame builds for crusader then becomes finding gimick legendary effects and set bonuses to circumvent the generator's weakness all together.

[Deleted]

I would assume this is just a case of numbers needing tweaking though. It shouldn't be hard to bump up the numbers to the point where the shorter CD & Holy damage of BoW is superior to 405% weapon damage every 12secs.

At the moment, assuming zero haste, that they're both used on CD, and that the boss has 30% damage reduction from armour...

Baseline Blade of Justice: 23.625% weapon damage per second, 10HP/min
Blade of Wrath: 15% weapon damage per second, 15HP/min

Baseline BoJ deals 57.5% more damage per second, but generates 33% less Holy Power.

Note of course that if baseline Blade of Justice is superior to BoW, then Virtue's Blade will be even better because of the increased critical hit damage.

No idea how Divine Hammer compares, but frankly I'm not sure I want to take it anyway, given it only generates 1 Holy Power and my muscle memory will soon be insisting my BoJ keybind generates 2 :P .

Can't even compare like this since Hpower outside judgment window is worth less.

[Ulthane]

So just read through the official thread and I have to agree with @Storm the Sorrow that you let that Bryiah thing off too easy @Thete. Thankfully someone pointed out the difference between HP and Rage nearly popped vein ... There is a fundamental difference between active and passive resource building.
@Ulthane sometime back I posted a suggestion to split up our mastery into a building and spending buff tied to 2 spells. If you remember my aim was to smooth out our DMG distribution and to prevent the gap between our builders and spender to grow to far and making target switches to feel not horrendously punishing as it is now.
Exo buffing builders by x% , Judge buffing spenders by y%, each buff is up 6 seconds, Exo&Judge 12 sec base cool down.
Not sure if it was widely disliked by you lot or if it just vanished into the deeps of this thread. Could be because I´m on the ignore list of half of the community. But not sure about this.^^

Its wasn't lost, I remember it quite well and in its own way could be fun I'll agree. The issue at hand is the removed the ability and are clearly set set with this kit, the kit can work mind you but it's mechanics needs vast buffs.