[Spoilers] Is the Nightwell the replacement for Well of Eternity for NElves?

[ravenmoon]

It's probably too early a conversation for this, but I raised the spoiler tag. The problem with the night elves having the well of eternity to control is that it's too powerful in a world where they are no longer the dominant race especially as you've made them playable in a 2-faction system.

The night elves backstory set them up very strongly, and later has them given up arcane magic because they thought using it would draw the armaggedon apocalyptic Legion. Their introduction shows a Legion returned anyway, and now for the first time in 10,000 years they can move forward from that state we saw them introduced in.

Do you think their intial set up and power in WC3 was way too much for the switch to the 2-faction styled mmo, and and that's why it got dumbed down significantly in the story? because they were going to be playable in thie balance demanding system and they didn't want them too powerful? Or do you think it was always part of the intended narrative. To lose a lot of power and then tell a story that builds them up to an acceptable level?

I ask because in WoW we see them really really dip. And I'm wondering if it was for balance issues mainly or entirely narrative. They have a lot stuff cut in the transition, lose immortality, reduced effectiveness all round, and then there was the Well of Eternity.

The problem is from WC3, the return of the legion means in the story they have no reason not to use magic again now or the Well of Eternity any more, but to do so would be a huge advantage after the way they described them using it in their intial story, which would make them too Mary Sue like for the sort of balance faction conflict they were trying to facitlitate in the players in the game. Notice how very very very silent the lore is on this. Even after the night elves start using magic again in cata in their first lore advancement since WC3, still no mention of using the Well of Eternity. I conclude they didn't quite know how to handle this well enough, so its use was put on hiatus, and they got away with it seeing how low key NElves were in WoW.

I suspect it's because it's way too powerful an advantage to have for one race when you care about faction balance, because the night elves are now playable. So, they made the Cenarion Circle take charge, making it a world thing -- but that left the night elves void of a means of power they always meant to give them. You see I strongly suspect they have always intended for the night elves to recover from the sundering properly, the Well of eternity was part of the plan, but fitting into an mmo system and being playable, divided focus, different method of telling a story, a lot of advancements were put on hold, the horde for starters needed a huge amount of lore beefing up and NElves were kinda put on ice.

Do you think, not being able to use the Well of Eternity for balance reasons is why in doing Suramar they have given it a nightwell? Note that now a nightwell has appeared, the Well of Eternity has been depleted by the legion ..just like that..it's not even a big story and this was the main focus of the first 2 invasions - which makes me suspect it was always meant to be power funnel for the NElves, but since they had to clip them down for balance issues, it became way too problematic. The Well's importance had become too big, so when the story was expanded a bit, they switched the focus from being the Well to being the Titan's soul Azeroth for which the well was an open wound, shifting the major importance from it to the world itself, however it sill being too powerful for one race in a 2 faction system of multiple races this game is.

You all know the night elves arcane element or side returns full force in the nightborne, these are a modified night elf, and it doesn't matter whether they ally with the normal night elves or not, they are part of the night elf group. Do you think this is blizzard actually giving them a downsized power source more in line with the opposite number on the Sunwell? It's no co-incidence they started using arcane again in cata after 10k years, this was always on the cards from day 1 I feel, it just got delayed by other develeopments and the transitioning into wow and this race balanced system, delayed further because they couldn't quite give one race that big a well, while their opposite number, the blood elves had a smaller one. And they couldnd't grow that one, because it's too much power as it is. No they needed another solution for the NElves, and I think this came with the Nightwell

It seems very suspicious, that the Well of Eternity is now gone (almost) and a nightwell suddenly appears with a new group of night elves which happens to be roughly exactly equivalent to the sunwell and not overpowered in the lore like the Well of Eternity became. It's just right, enough now for night elves to have as a part of their society, one in which the nightborne use mainly and ofc other night elven mages, providing a nice counter/opposite to the blood elves and the sunwell.

Worth noting that atm, the nightwell is corrupted at the start of legion and not in the control of the night elves and the good nightborne. This is similar to the sunwell at the start of TBC, not accessible by the good blood elves, and when it came back, it had to be won and cleansed. I feel this is going to happen here too.

[Florena]

I would guess it'll remain in the hands of the nightborn rather than Darnassus based night elves. We'll have to see though, it's possible they could integrate back into NE society like the Dire Maul highborne did.

[Aucald]

From what I can tell the Nightwell is even more limited than the Sunwell, it is local to the environs of Suramar and comes with a crippling addictive nature that causes Nightborne cut off from its influence (via exile from the city limits) are wracked with pain and eventually devolve into proto-humanoids like the Wretched. The Sunwell seems to saturate the entirety of Azeroth with enough Arcane energy for the High/Blood Elves to sustain themselves despite being apart from it - and the withdrawal symptoms also appear to be greatly lessened although similar in nature.

I can see the Nightborne being weaned from the Nightwell and perhaps connected to the Sunwell instead, or perhaps someone will find an actual cure or process to resolve Arcane addiction in the various Elven species.

[ravenmoon]

From what I can tell the Nightwell is even more limited than the Sunwell, it is local to the environs of Suramar and comes with a crippling addictive nature that causes Nightborne cut off from its influence (via exile from the city limits) are wracked with pain and eventually devolve into proto-humanoids like the Wretched. The Sunwell seems to saturate the entirety of Azeroth with enough Arcane energy for the High/Blood Elves to sustain themselves despite being apart from it - and the withdrawal symptoms also appear to be greatly lessened although similar in nature.

I think there are two parts to this because of how it is used.

1. The nightwell has only been in the context of the city, because the city has been isolated for a long time.
We don't know if the nightborne are "suffused" by the nightwell like high/blood elves are with the sunwell but it's safe to assume they are, but we definitely know they need more than a suffusion to survive. Blood elves are not directly feeding off the substance like it's water/food nightborne are and need too. Huge difference

2. The nightwell is corrupted, which needs to be fixed. This is what causes a problem when you don't feed on it directly. This is not crippling addiction - this is food deprivation. When not fed by the nightwell, you have to constantly give nightfallen ancient mana to keep up or they starve. It's not withdrawal like an addict, they starve like a person who doesn't have food.

Night elves know how to cut people off from the suffusion and the use of a Well. Azshara's highborne did it with the Well of Eternity close to the sundering, Elves who had been able to use or draw from its power all over the world were cut off, only those in direct proximity could.

We see Nordrassil grown over the new Well of Eternity, and the druids able to sever the group they exiled from being connected to it. The tree's purpose was to mask the Well's power so it could not be accessed accidentally by some new race or detected in the twisting nether.

Therefore nightborne needing the nightwell to survive does not mean it's power usage is limited /confined only to the city. It means that nightborne need the substance to actually live, but for power and access, they can do it from anywhere if that's what those controlling it want.

Nightborne Case Is Different
People keep comparing the nightborne to the high elves/blood elves, while there are similarities you must note the situation is very distinctly different. You're not talking about addiction or indulgence, but rather dependence and necessity. Arcane sources are not supposed to cause that, but then they are not supposed to be used as food either. We are told that the effect that causes Withering has happened because of corruption to the source.

I can see the Nightborne being weaned from the Nightwell and perhaps connected to the Sunwell instead, or perhaps someone will find an actual cure or process to resolve Arcane addiction in the various Elven species.

it could happen that way, but i doubt they'll ever connect to the sunwell, or that the blood elves would even allow it. But I don't know, that's just a narrative matter. Such a thing will change them from night to light elves, and involve a whole change in society, change in model - i'm not convinced that's the direction blizz would go with them or that was the purpose for introducing them - to turn them into blood elves that don't need them are a polar opposite to them and have a different theme to them.

From where it stands at the moment, it seems the nightwell is the opposite to the sunwell, and is poised to be the night elves' equivalence should they fix it. I cannot see night elves ever using the nightwell like it is now, nightborne don't have a choice though. Night elves would have to fix the corruption first - and they seem to have what it takes. I think we shall see Elune play a role in this, because this who the Priestesses call on when they cleanse Moonwells. We saw a naaru cleanse the sunwell, we are shown that Elune made Naaru, I'm thinking the night elves are looking like the ones to cleanse the nightwell allowing the nightborne and night elves to use it as a power source as it is intended rather than need it for a food source as well.

But we'll see.

Solution To Arcane Addiction
I do agree that they'll find a solution to arcane addiction, but I think part of it lies in understanding the whole thing. On the whole, do you view needing food as a bad thing or a good thing? when food is both pleasurable and beneficial but also necessary to survival. If it was a substance that was not beneficial and even harmful but just pleasurable and its use caused you to be addicted - then we'd all agree it is dangerous and to be avoided. This is the difference between drugs and food or sugar for example. Narcotic drugs damage you physically on use, don't have beneficial use though highly pleasurable and addictive = bad. It's like fel. Not so for good food or sugar - but if you use uncontrollable and don't keep yourself in balance with exercise and discipline for which humility is a great aid, then it can be damaging, arcane is like this Azshara's highborne or TFT-TBC blood elves are an example of this.

The Arcane Is Good
So in the case of the arcane, we know it's not evil or corrupt or anything like that, but pure and good. Using it is also very beneficial and very good, it improves everything in the surroundings as the night elves show, increases life span, boosts intelligence allows you to function better and more effectively and improve things all round - you could say that is a necessity. Still you can live without using it night elves show, even though they are suffused by it (and this they had felt for a long time was necessary but have now been shown it isn't). Now in blood elf case, using it repeatedly is also addictive weighed but weight up against not using it might be a no contest when you're in need and when it's that good.

Like Necessary Substances
Like food or water on a planet, and air, you can need this substance (arcane) and it occurs naturally anyway, if anything is good to add to that list of things to depend on surely it is the arcane right? It's not like fel that damages your ordered physical form, distorts and pollutes, it instead enhances. So is dependency on it a bad thing? AFterall if you get use to living at an enhanced mode or level because of something really good it's going to hurt when it's taken away from you right? The question is, is it bad or detrimental to use when you have it? In the case of food, and especially the arcane, the answer is no, it's very good, in the case of fel the answer is no because it also distorts you, corrupts you and brings out chaotic and evil emotions in you.

The Case For the Arcane
The case of the nightwell is that it's not suppose to forcibly change you like that on use, the reason it does so is because it has become flawed ( corrupted) and that is something that can be fixed. Outside that, like the well of eternity before, and like the sunwell now, it is good to use. Should elves continue to view the enhancement as a bad thing? Such is nature of good things, you get use to them then you can't live without them, question is, is it worth having as something that is a part of your daily requirement or not.

What Reason To Fear?
What is the fear? that you'll die if you no longer have it? or feel bad? if it is uncorrupted, isn't that just a matter of making sure you always have it? like food, water and air you will die without, even when you leave the planet for outerspace, make sure you have an air supply, a food supply and necessities, arcane being even better and more useful than these things why does it become bad now to have it if it is not corrupt? If it was corrupt yes, but if it's not and only enhances??

Night elves were concerned against addiction because they viewed using the arcane negatively, simply because it was tied to bringing the burning legion and made their beloved queen go crazy. But now knowing the two are mutually exculsive, and the source actually is quite pure, now the benefits of usage far outweight he costs - i.e. usage bringing the legion aka doom of the world is no longer the case or even an issue. it's understandble night elven views have changed.

Nature Magic Users in the Same Boat
So we revisit the blood elf situation, not having the arcane should be fixed by supplying the arcane. Any other reason not to use it? You can argue it can be corrupted so don't. But food can be corrupted - do you stop using food or do you remove the corruption? Druids now know the same thing quite well, nature magic usage can be corrupted via the emerald dream corruption - stop using nature magic? no! remove the corruption and corrupting source.

If you are willing to become arcane dependent it should be your choice right? The source is not a harmful one - it will enhance your life, extend your life, improve your health, make you last longer, fill you with power a good feeling if you are suffused by it and if you use it, it allows you to do some extraordinary things if you have the skill and the control to discipline yourself. This last bit the night elves banned because doing so they thought would bring the Legion and through the Legion the end of the world. Now doing using it does no such thing.

Arcane Addiction - Do I Need To Be Worried?
I can't see why Elves would worry about arcane addiction any longer, they just need to ensure they keep themselves connected to a source. Should your fear of being vulnerable or dying if you are deprived of it stop you from touching it at all? How is that different from being deprived of food or air or water in fact it's easier to deprive you of those things than it is a magic source. An enemy cause them problems even kill them by removing or corrupting their source, just like he can do with food, but it's no reason to live without magic because of that fear.

Coping With Loss
When someone tries to deprive you, you stop them from taking your supplies, you find new ones or you restore your flow. Water doesn't become bad or you fear using it because someone contaminates the supply in the city. You address the issue. How is important though.

When your food source is contaminated, you remove the contamination and cleanse it if you have the power too or you find a suitable alternative. Feeding off sentient beings or filthy demons is a big no no, you can get food source elsewhere. some people though on the bring of starvation do that, some would rather die than do that - that is a question of morals, not a problem with food.

Fear Shouldn't Stop You, Guard Yourself
Elves just have to become good at protecting themselves for eventualities of being without food or water or air or magic. End those trying to take the things you need to survive. You can kill an elf by stabbing him or by starving him or any number of means, to survive the individual must decide or ensure that he is not deprived of the things he needs and that he can counteract attacks against him no matter what is used good or bad.

The Situation Now:
Although not directly spelt out like this. I believe this is the discussion the Night Elven body has had, and concluded in favor of the arcane. It would have been nice to have a book that specifically covered the arguments directly where they discussed these clearly for players to read, and you can see how the Highborne Archmage Evenshade persuaded Tyrande, and also showed the night elves realizing this after the Legion returning and coming out of isolation to interact with others such as humans, high elves and later Draenei, realizing that the highborne they didn't trust had actually been right about magic usage.

The point is this argument has been had amongst them. It's really a matter of logic and night elves aren't stupid. We see by Wolfheart (just post cataclysm) most night elves have accepted the Highborne openly except for the group Maiev stirs up which later when she gets exposed as been a bit crazy, they disband. It also shows many night elves eagerly embracing magic.

A Modern Night Elven Society With Arcane
Post cataclysm, and Legion has not shown night elves convert from druidism to arcane nor from priesthood to arcane en masse. No, druidism is a separate path and those who have taken it have stuck to it, as is the priesthood and the way of the Sentinel. No replacement is happening, just an addition, first a small one due to the small group of Shen'drelar highborne that escaped Dire Maul and now re-united with their kin and those new students younger night elves not committed to a path that want to do the arcane.

And now potentially a much larger number via the good nightborne who fight the legion. Because of the nightborne the night elf arcane section will grow from being a tiny limited group to a group as large and as influential as the druids or the priesthood. The 3 disciplines will make the night elves complete again, it's like they've been running on 2/3rds for 10k years.

Integration of the Nightborne
The start of Legion reveals an ancient secluded night elven society. Same as the night elves we met in WC3, that now comes out of isolation - the difference is these night elves have been living with magic in the pre-sundering style, the ones we met in WC3 were living without in a post sundering style. It's not going to just end there, like that. You're going to see how these new night elves are going to adapt to living life in a wider world after the Legion threat has ended

More specifically, how they and night elf society will integrate. It's not hard to see, night elf society was sorely lacking and desperately in need of a much more substantial arcane element than the shen'drelar were providing, and nightborne society in need of a priesthood and druidism for balance, not to mention friends and a wider family. It's naive to think the night elves aren't big enough to accomdate the nightborne or to stiff to make room, same with the nightborne - these are kin afterall.

Brings Night Elves Up to Par Again After All Those Losses
The nightborne help replenish somewhat the many losses and weaknesses that have been added to the night elves since as far back as the sundering. Like Suramar being one city they get back full after the countless ones they lost. They don't make the night elves overpowered or too big either, actually they bring them more on power with Blood elves and give them the potential to match Humans, Orcs, Trolls, etc in the wider world. Orcs are established all over Azeroth, as are humans, Trolls are everywhere. Draenei may be small on Azeroth, but they are loaded on two worlds - Outland & Draenor. I think adding a city and a sub-group to the fold and even potentially 3 areas of the broken isles is not over doing it.

What the Change Might Look Like
This last element will improve their city living conditions and the way they build drastically, but you can still expect druids to continue to be very distinct and in the wild living there and addressing/attending to nature, it's just now it's not Half of the night elves, but a 3rd and the woods will not be the only place night elves set up to live in.

With the nightborne added, the whole night elf group now has the potential to grow and restore some of its former grandeur. It won't ever be the size it was before, because they are much smaller than before, the nightwell is not as powerful as the Well of Eternity and now other races like Orcs, Humans, Trolls, etc all have well established presences etc, but now the night elves have a chance to return to a measure of former strength, at least enough to keep up with the blood elves and the human and the orcs.

This is something I could not see them doing without the nightborne. Especially given how badly they're beaten up throughout WoW.