What will you miss in Legion?

[Shoot-]

Hopefully it will be fine then . The only problem will be when it comes to untauntable mobs, and soloing older content.

Do the usual tenacity pet abilities remain, and pet special abilities such as a turtles Shell shield? Maybe a threat increase from thunderstomp could help if it is an issue too.

Tenacity pet abilities are still in place; so are pet special abilities, shell shield/spirit mend etc.

[Thursley]

Rly or you are joking?

I will miss good old survival spec.

This may sound insincere but I'm asking in all honesty: what is it actually about survival on live that you enjoy? As in, not worrying about the actual damage or anything, but about the playstyle of the spec. It doesn't have any interesting functionality that I can see. There's no unique resource, no DOTs to manage (applying serpent sting as an AOE is hardly multi-dotting), no positional or movement requirements, no buffs to maintain, no extra abilities to weave in situationally such as for an execute, and not even a unique cooldown to use, never mind one that changes gameplay in an interesting way. You use black arrow and explosive shot on cooldown, then hit explosive shot a few more times when your screen lights up for lock and load. Arcane shot with extra focus, otherwise cobra shot.

Even going back to MOP when survival still had rapid fire and kill shot, it wasn't really that different. Back then the only interesting thing about the spec was the SOO set bonus that sometimes let you spam explosive shot endlessly. Is hitting the same button over and over really the most compelling gameplay they could come up with? At least there was an element of excitement when you got lucky and were able to do it like 15 times in a row or whatever, but still. And the spec has only gotten worse.

People argue that marksmanship on live is a simple spec too, and in some ways it is, but in many ways it's not. Yes, you have only 3 basic buttons, but you also have to manage the very powerful sniper training buff while thinking about chimaera shot's cleave, rapid fire timing, and careful aim/kill shot. Even beast mastery has a unique cooldown that changes gameplay a little in bestial wrath, and focus fire introduces a massive amount of variance and requires you to plan ahead a bit. Survival has none of that, you just target enemies and hit the buttons on a rotation, or when lock and load lights up.

So what specific thing about the spec do you like? What specific unique feature has been lost by switching the spec to melee? If you find it just "feels" different from the other specs that's totally fine, but examine why exactly and articulate it.

[Firebyrd]

This may sound insincere but I'm asking in all honesty: what is it actually about survival on live that you enjoy? As in, not worrying about the actual damage or anything, but about the playstyle of the spec. It doesn't have any interesting functionality that I can see. There's no unique resource, no DOTs to manage (applying serpent sting as an AOE is hardly multi-dotting), no positional or movement requirements, no buffs to maintain, no extra abilities to weave in situationally such as for an execute, and not even a unique cooldown to use, never mind one that changes gameplay in an interesting way. You use black arrow and explosive shot on cooldown, then hit explosive shot a few more times when your screen lights up for lock and load. Arcane shot with extra focus, otherwise cobra shot.

Even going back to MOP when survival still had rapid fire and kill shot, it wasn't really that different. Back then the only interesting thing about the spec was the SOO set bonus that sometimes let you spam explosive shot endlessly. Is hitting the same button over and over really the most compelling gameplay they could come up with? At least there was an element of excitement when you got lucky and were able to do it like 15 times in a row or whatever, but still. And the spec has only gotten worse.

People argue that marksmanship on live is a simple spec too, and in some ways it is, but in many ways it's not. Yes, you have only 3 basic buttons, but you also have to manage the very powerful sniper training buff while thinking about chimaera shot's cleave, rapid fire timing, and careful aim/kill shot. Even beast mastery has a unique cooldown that changes gameplay a little in bestial wrath, and focus fire introduces a massive amount of variance and requires you to plan ahead a bit. Survival has none of that, you just target enemies and hit the buttons on a rotation, or when lock and load lights up.

So what specific thing about the spec do you like? What specific unique feature has been lost by switching the spec to melee? If you find it just "feels" different from the other specs that's totally fine, but examine why exactly and articulate it.

The people who loved SV in Cata and MoP seemed to enjoy the flow of the spec. I think the difference now is that there is literally no variance. With no cd and no kill shot, the spec plays exactly the same throughout an entire fight. Rapid fire wasn't much, but you did play a bit differently doing it, and then kill shot of course altered things during the last 20%. So WoD took that flow away and made a yawnfest and Legion takes away the possibility of ever getting it back with SV going melee.

[Deleted]

Hopefully it will be fine then . The only problem will be when it comes to untauntable mobs, and soloing older content.

Do the usual tenacity pet abilities remain, and pet special abilities such as a turtles Shell shield? Maybe a threat increase from thunderstomp could help if it is an issue too.

There isnt any changes in Tenacity pets abilityes and passives but i`m not sure about turtles probably they keep the shields because spirit beasts before legion still can heal you .About thunderstomp the pet doing alot of threat with it but if you push the pack of mobs with several marked shot crits or Eagle strike with 5 stacks MB some mob may decide to swap his target but thats why we have FD for.But if you use barrage for example atleast in 800-810 gear pet not lose aggro from surrounding mobs

[construkt]

As far as I can tell, the whole MMO-Champion community is in a state of hyperbole. The hunters I talk to in game (including the one's who've been in beta) seem fine and happy.

Yeah... no. Not hyperbole, in fact your type are the reason that we fall between the cracks. Most of the hunters in existence don't even bother to leave feedback because the class as a whole is dead. The play is miserable compared to live. The only ones who have enjoyed so far are casuals or contrarians. Every hunter friend I have has abandoned the class and their numbers were not few. Our guild.is going from 5 active hunters to 0 as well.

On topic: I will miss the Hunter class. I didn't mind the evolution of the class from TBC til now. All 3 specs had a flavor before and now they're just mind numbing.

[Deleted]

...

Well not rly about WoD one but..
I liked cata one. Still a rng fest, but i was pretty good on it. I had fights where i had almost a perfect rotation, well it feels good to be like a simcraft. Every spec that dont make me feel like a job is fun for me. After cata it was boring mostly, but i always had hope they will bring survival spec to cata level or something like this, but not going to happen.
Also i rly enjoyed to stack agility to the max (2 ap = 1 agi vanilla/cata). In wotlk on survival you had a lot of stats without any gear, i rly liked it too.

[DarkAviator]

This may sound insincere but I'm asking in all honesty: what is it actually about survival on live that you enjoy?

Having switched to SV after 3.0.8 hit BM, I enjoyed it a lot as an alternative to BM. It was still ranged, still had a pet and viable for everything except Beth'tilac hc. So, for me it's probably Lock'n'Load/Explosive Shot. Not the Legion version of it though.

[Deleted]

I'll be really disappointed if survival ends up being the best spec for raiding. I don't want to play a melee class. I'd be alright if it's the best for a few fights but hopefully it's at least not the majority of fights.

I dont have inv yet but how you made this statement?

[gutnbrg]

i just started lvling my hunter and now is ee all this bad news =(

[Deleted]

I have no idea what you're asking.

my bad sry, but i dont think survival will be the best hunter spec in anything

[grindcore]

Nothing, It's about time they are changing survival from the boring abomination it has become, *straps TNT onto arrow* "I don't know what you're talking about". Marksman looks very fun to play now, all about finding that weakness and doing strong burst, BM looks a little boring from the changes, although it was as boring before, as least it fits the spec now.

[Thursley]

The people who loved SV in Cata and MoP seemed to enjoy the flow of the spec. I think the difference now is that there is literally no variance. With no cd and no kill shot, the spec plays exactly the same throughout an entire fight. Rapid fire wasn't much, but you did play a bit differently doing it, and then kill shot of course altered things during the last 20%. So WoD took that flow away and made a yawnfest and Legion takes away the possibility of ever getting it back with SV going melee.

Rapid fire as survival was pitiful (a few extra arcane shots and faster cobra shots? Oh and auto-shots) and kill shot was a button you hit 2 times every 10 seconds with no additional effects or even a resource cost. If you think adding those things back would bring survival up from a "yawnfest" to an interesting and engaging spec I think you're setting the bar much, much too low. Starting from scratch makes more sense, there really wasn't enough of a spec left to be worth rebuilding around. Then they take the names of the few features survival has that could be described as even remotely interesting if you were feeling generous (explosive shot, lock and load, and black arrow), redesign them to varying degrees, and let MM pick them as talents. Even if survival ends up not working well as a melee spec I'm glad blizzard is making the attempt.

[Firebyrd]

Rapid fire as survival was pitiful (a few extra arcane shots and faster cobra shots? Oh and auto-shots) and kill shot was a button you hit 2 times every 10 seconds with no additional effects or even a resource cost. If you think adding those things back would bring survival up from a "yawnfest" to an interesting and engaging spec I think you're setting the bar much, much too low. Starting from scratch makes more sense, there really wasn't enough of a spec left to be worth rebuilding around. Then they take the names of the few features survival has that could be described as even remotely interesting if you were feeling generous (explosive shot, lock and load, and black arrow), redesign them to varying degrees, and let MM pick them as talents. Even if survival ends up not working well as a melee spec I'm glad blizzard is making the attempt.

A ton of people liked it in Cata/MoP. Even if you think Rapid Fire and Kill Shot had no impact in how it felt, it did break up doing the exact same thing the exact same way for an entire fight, and since those are the major things that are gone in WoD, I think it had more of an impact than you think (not like automatically applied Hunter's Mark or applying Serpent Sting manually once in a fight if it was single target added a whole lot of depth or changed gameplay, so it must have been RF and KS). Some people like a simpler spec, or even a complete braindead one, as we can see from the people who think Legion BM and sitting around unable to do anything at all is good.

[barackohmama]

A lot of things. As usual blizz thinks dumbing down the game and make it easier even further is a good idea. glyphs gone, spells reduced even further to the point it's not funny anymore, stats gone etc. Just to name a few things. I played on beta and the horrible new "glaive sounds" for everything is just unbearable. My favourite class warrior seems pretty much destroyed with spells gone and bad talents. I'm seriously considering quitting this game for the first time in 10 years.

Removing all the useful perks from fury/arms warrior. def stance, shield barrier, spell reflect, die by the sword(only arms now), intercept a pvp talent. Basically they want to emphasise the fantasy part of easy spec, and their idea is that we are mindless and don't want to do anything else than mash furious slash 24/7. Consolidating for the win huh?

[Thursley]

A ton of people liked it in Cata/MoP. Even if you think Rapid Fire and Kill Shot had no impact in how it felt, it did break up doing the exact same thing the exact same way for an entire fight, and since those are the major things that are gone in WoD, I think it had more of an impact than you think (not like automatically applied Hunter's Mark or applying Serpent Sting manually once in a fight if it was single target added a whole lot of depth or changed gameplay, so it must have been RF and KS). Some people like a simpler spec, or even a complete braindead one, as we can see from the people who think Legion BM and sitting around unable to do anything at all is good.

There's a third thing gone in WOD (at least 6.2 WOD), and I think the loss of that has had a far greater impact on the "likability" of the spec than rapid fire or kill shot: competitive raid DPS. Losing Rapid Fire and Kill Shot were the last straws in terms of the spec having anything of interest remaining. They weren't major differences, but because they were all that was left it became very obvious how empty the spec was (if you remember WOD beta, blizzard was trying a very experimental thing with the new multistrike stat interacting with lock and load, which could have led to a very engaging playstyle, but they scrapped it shortly before launch, and from that point on the spec was basically written off in terms of mechanics). Despite that, lots of people "liked" the spec in early WOD (meaning, they played it) because it was the best for damage. Then blizzard nerfed its damage and it fell off the map.

It can be very difficult to distinguish exactly why people "like" a spec, so I try not to bother. Would people have liked the spec as much in Cata/MOP if it wasn't the strongest DPS-wise (which it was for a lot of the time)? I try to think about whether a spec is "good" in a more objective way, by considering what about the spec's playstyle is unique or engaging. Obviously that's far from perfect too, but I think it's more fair than trying to guess what percentage of people like a spec, and what exactly about it they like. I don't find "some people prefer an overly simple spec" a compelling argument for leaving survival in this kind of state, especially when (particularly compared to cata) so many other classes/specs have been updated in interesting ways, and not always by adding an enormous amount of complexity.

[DialeGaming]

Old Survival...

[Aggrophobic]

Being able to respec *crying*

[Firebyrd]

There's a third thing gone in WOD (at least 6.2 WOD), and I think the loss of that has had a far greater impact on the "likability" of the spec than rapid fire or kill shot: competitive raid DPS. Losing Rapid Fire and Kill Shot were the last straws in terms of the spec having anything of interest remaining. They weren't major differences, but because they were all that was left it became very obvious how empty the spec was (if you remember WOD beta, blizzard was trying a very experimental thing with the new multistrike stat interacting with lock and load, which could have led to a very engaging playstyle, but they scrapped it shortly before launch, and from that point on the spec was basically written off in terms of mechanics). Despite that, lots of people "liked" the spec in early WOD (meaning, they played it) because it was the best for damage. Then blizzard nerfed its damage and it fell off the map.

It can be very difficult to distinguish exactly why people "like" a spec, so I try not to bother. Would people have liked the spec as much in Cata/MOP if it wasn't the strongest DPS-wise (which it was for a lot of the time)? I try to think about whether a spec is "good" in a more objective way, by considering what about the spec's playstyle is unique or engaging. Obviously that's far from perfect too, but I think it's more fair than trying to guess what percentage of people like a spec, and what exactly about it they like. I don't find "some people prefer an overly simple spec" a compelling argument for leaving survival in this kind of state, especially when (particularly compared to cata) so many other classes/specs have been updated in interesting ways, and not always by adding an enormous amount of complexity.

Funny, I'm willing to take people at their word when they say they like a spec. I heard many hunters say they liked sv in the past, even when it wasn't the top dps. They often even acknowledged that it wasn't necessarily the most complicated thing out there, but that they had fun with it. Just because it wasn't to your liking doesn't mean it wasn't to others. I'm not suggesting it be kept as it is now. I haven't suggested anything at all, in fact. You just asked why people are upset about losing sv as a ranged spec and I offered my opinions, because prior to WoD, it was considered an enjoyable spec to play by many people.

ETA: I really don't think people would say a spec is fun just because of damage. People are perfectly willing to complain about specs that aren't fun but are doing top dps and do all the time. Heck, just look at the endless whining by people since Wrath whenever BM has even approached viability, let alone done good dps. Many of them clearly hadn't touched the spec since the one button macro days of BC but that sure didn't stop them from whining because they wanted the good dps to be fun as well and they perceived BM as not fun.

[vindicatorx]

Playing as survival spec

[Thursley]

Funny, I'm willing to take people at their word when they say they like a spec. I heard many hunters say they liked sv in the past, even when it wasn't the top dps. They often even acknowledged that it wasn't necessarily the most complicated thing out there, but that they had fun with it. Just because it wasn't to your liking doesn't mean it wasn't to others. I'm not suggesting it be kept as it is now. I haven't suggested anything at all, in fact. You just asked why people are upset about losing sv as a ranged spec and I offered my opinions, because prior to WoD, it was considered an enjoyable spec to play by many people.

ETA: I really don't think people would say a spec is fun just because of damage. People are perfectly willing to complain about specs that aren't fun but are doing top dps and do all the time. Heck, just look at the endless whining by people since Wrath whenever BM has even approached viability, let alone done good dps. Many of them clearly hadn't touched the spec since the one button macro days of BC but that sure didn't stop them from whining because they wanted the good dps to be fun as well and they perceived BM as not fun.

No doubt there's plenty of people that like specs that do poor damage, and don't like ones that do great damage. The problem is it's very hard to gauge that at a broad level. But either way, my original question is the same: if you like (or liked, in MOP or whatever) survival, what about it specifically do you like? "I had fun with it" is a perfectly fine reason to like and play a spec, but not really for building anything around. As a followup I proposed that people who liked it in MOP but not in WOD were probably mostly responding to the lack of DPS rather than any significant changes to the spec, because there weren't any significant ones, but that's a side argument and not central to my real question.

I just don't see what any recent version of the spec has that BM or MM doesn't capture better (and if the answer is "I like the feel of hunter but DON'T like the BM or MM playstyle" that's fine too, but different from liking survival, and doesn't support keeping survival the same), and general statements like "I think it's fun" don't help my understanding. The only even partially solid answer I've read is that some people really prefer a spec that is similar to other available specs but maximally simple, and survival captured that for them (though so far I don't think anyone has actually said that, only people citing it as a reason for others). But I have to think that notion isn't popular enough to warrant a spec quite as straightforward as survival has been going forward.