What Blizzard say - has all attributes of demagogy

[Deleted]

Welcome to the real world. Big business has to work like a political machine. They have the kind of audiences politicians can only dream of. This entire thread is like saying I went to McDonalds, asked for fried chicken and they told me I could only have nuggets. Just because you pay money to a business doesn't mean it it has to create something just for you. Especially when there is a perfectly good business next door selling fried chicken.

[WowIsDead64]

Yeah yeah. Sure. Its not like there is a difference between people hating Blizzard for removing things they had for years and people who are mimicking Blizzard's demagogy the very moment Blizaard posts it.

Clear example: last "awesome" talent changing change. I am posting on these forums since 2012, and lurking this forum from even earlier, and I've never seen anyone complaining that being able to switch talents on the fly destroys the purpose of talents. But bam - just when blizzard's talking head writes his nonsensical twitter, hundreds of players arise to repeat his nonsense. Coinscidence? Nope, mind manipulation.
Another example: fiasco with waterstriders. Absolutely same shit happening there: nobody ever complained about being forced to use that mount, and suddenly after developer's twitter hundreds of players start repeating nonsense about being forced.
Another example: flying/noflying fiasco... etc, etc.

I seriously fail to understand how can anyone compare that bullshit to constructive criticism about 2/3 of abilities ripped from his character - ripped despite previous ability prunes in WoD received more negative feedback than positive. Ripped despite a huge uproar from beta testers.

And even more! At some point, when Blizzard were changing talents from old system to new, they stated, that new talents are INTENDED to be changeable at any moment, by themselves. What I see in this change - is one of those "Red herring" cases, where Blizzard makes some stupid change only to drive attention away from real problems. Also it seems, like they always want players to "pay" for some benefit. I.e. the can't simply add some QOL feature - something else should be removed according to "False dilemma" rule.

One of things, that make them similar to politicians - is that they tend to "forget" about their previous statements after "elections" have been won.

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They think flying is immersion breaking. They gave long and clear arguments why they think flying is immersion breaking. You can disagree with that. You can engage with the arguments they are giving. But if you just declare your opinion to be the right one and use that as an argument, you are using circular logic.
The discussion is about wether flying is immersion breaking or not. I think it is not, blizzard thinks it is. They are demagogs, because they say that it is, while it actually isnt. Therefore I am right.

As I already said, immersion argument is true, but only when content is being done for the first time. Cuz when you see something for 10nth time - it becomes routine and no longer immersive anyway. Pro-flyers (at least constructive ones) agree to have compromise - to do content on a ground for the first time. But Blizzard refuse to accept this compromise - they want to remove flying till the end of xpack, when it would be irrelevant anyway, like Tri-spec is irrelevant now, cuz all specs are diluted and homogenized anyway. Which means immersion - isn't real reason. "Lack of immersion" - is just a strawman, they try to turn flying into.

A strawman is a tactic, where one person brings an argument and then the other person responds to a diffrent argument (that is easier to attack), claiming that the first person has used that argument instead. This is blizzards original argument, why they want to remove flying. Its not a response to someone. So this cannot be a strawmen.

Why can't initial argument be a strawman? Because it's not necessary to have opposite opinion sounded - it can be assumed.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Well.. now that we all know that anyone want to go grab some pizza and a beer? Because I can honestly say I don't understand why this really matters in the long run. I mean a billion dollar corporate minces some words and plays with people's heads a bit in an attempt to make money? Say it ain't so captain obvious. Welcome to 2016 and the rest of civilization for piecing together the simplest 2 piece puzzle ever created.

[WowIsDead64]

Well.. now that we all know that anyone want to go grab some pizza and a beer? Because I can honestly say I don't understand why this really matters in the long run. I mean a billion dollar corporate minces some words and plays with people's heads a bit in an attempt to make money? Say it ain't so captain obvious. Welcome to 2016 and the rest of civilization for piecing together the simplest 2 piece puzzle ever created.

Because when majority of "uneducated" players, who for example think, that RNG - is essentially "dropped or not dropped" and who don't know, that RNG - is law too, and who don't know, what demagogy is and how it's used in politics and advertising, let Blizzard manipulate them - other players suffer from it.

This is long term Wow problem - Blizzard do terrible things, because players let them do it. Wow is still P2P+B2P+microtransactions game, despite of terrible quality and quantity of content, because players are ready to pay their money. If majority of players will refuse to pay sub tomorrow - Blizzard will have to improve quality of content or remove sub fee immediately.

I mean, there wouldn't be anything bad, if Blizzard would try to grab extra money from some players via manipulating them. That's how advertising works - nobody forces you to buy anything - only convinces. But Blizzard manipulate players to make them accept changes, that force other players to do, what they don't want to do. This is called dictate. And this is bad.

[pkhs]

as if because something is a fallacy it's suddenly void. It's not. Fallacies CAN be void of course, but it's not a given.

A fallacy is the use of invalid or otherwise faulty reasoning in the construction of an argument, so you're wrong.

[HumbleDuck]

They surely are some kind of a government. They impose rules, they create currency, they manage access to their world.

No they are not. They own azeroth quite literary and none of the players hold any share in the "world" they control.

But governments make errors, just like every single person. A sensible government learns from their errors and not replicate them. Blizzard seem not to learn much.

frankly I have never seen a long lasting problem in wow which blizzard stood by idly. blizzard is one of the very few AAA developers who listens to their player base. would you please provide me with an example?

[Schmilblick]

Rename your thread : Crying for no Flying.

[Begrudge]

If you really believe what you wrote OP you need to see a psychiatrist.

[Deleted]

WAA WAA WAA WAA I hate having to pay for a game that doesn't appeal to me. Make it free so I can play it to complain about it more. WAAA WAAAAA WAAAAAAAA WAAAAA

[Dhrizzle]

This thread has it all.
Criticising Blizzard's statements as if they're scoring points in highschool debate club.
Calling Blizzard a government because they collect "taxes."
Mistaking subjective opinions for objective facts.
Blaming other players for being "uneducated."

My personal favourite is the declaration solo players can no longer take part in random dungeons and world content. Oh, and the OP's name;

[Ratyrel]

You do know demagogy is about political power, right? Advertising operates on different registers and all public statements made by companies that sell products have an element of advertising. It would be extremely surprising if their statements did not contain such elements; they would be doing it wrong.

That said, your points themselves all relate to extremely complex problems. Only because you consider arguments fallacious that does not mean that everyone will. An argument's fallacy in matters of taste - and all video games-related arguments are such - is purely determined by popular opinion which is extremely hard to measure in this case because thousands of factors influence it.

I would say just play the game if you're having fun, or don't if you're not. Don't get hung up on all this meta-discourse.

[Idoru]

Oh for fuck's sake, stop complaining about no flying. People defend no flying because - and I know that's hard to understand and accept but - they actually like a game world where you can't fly around and therefore trivialize all the content. They actually like it when you see people on the ground and it feels like an actual living world, instead of having everybody in the sky and not encountering anybody ever on the ground.

Oh for fuck's sake, stop complaining about no flying. People defend no flying because - and I know that's hard to understand and accept but - they actually like a game world where you can't fly around because they don't see being dazed by random trash mobs while traveling to quest objectives as meaningful content.

[Deleted]

I actually think this whole thread is a massive troll.

Unlike an actual demagog, Blizzard don't have any political power over you; you can stop playing any time you like. But you also have to sometimes accept that other people are still playing because they are genuinely enjoying the game.

[WowIsDead64]

You do know demagogy is about political power, right? Advertising operates on different registers and all public statements made by companies that sell products have an element of advertising. It would be extremely surprising if their statements did not contain such elements; they would be doing it wrong.

That said, your points themselves all relate to extremely complex problems. Only because you consider arguments fallacious that does not mean that everyone will. An argument's fallacy in matters of taste - and all video games-related arguments are such - is purely determined by popular opinion which is extremely hard to measure in this case because thousands of factors influence it.

I would say just play the game if you're having fun, or don't if you're not. Don't get hung up on all this meta-discourse.

The purpose of this thread - is exactly to prevent players from buying into this demagogy. I.e. when Blizzard write posts, like this, it should be followed by wall of "Demagogy detected" comments.

Also:

Dourble standards - Blizzard accept argument, when it suits them, but reject it, if it doesn't. If they talk about 2M gold/500$ P2W Spider mount - "We want to satisfy all players - even tiny minority". If they talk about flying - "50% players want it? It won't happen - no compromise". Or they say, that they hate, when players use hyperboles, yet they constantly use them by themselves (worst case scenarios and exaggerations, such as "players completely skill content via flying").

[Raiju]

You're mistakenly applying concepts in an inappropriate context. Yes, Blizzard will spin their decisions in a positive light, because it's their work, their business, and in their interests. Welcome to companies.

That being said, why am I trying when hte fact you made this thread is enough evidence it's pointless to argue with you?

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

So, we all are manipulated because of our weak minds?

I suppose that means YOU are the only strong minded one around here hahahaha

Tinfoil hat, indeed.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Because when majority of "uneducated" players, who for example think, that RNG - is essentially "dropped or not dropped" and who don't know, that RNG - is law too, and who don't know, what demagogy is and how it's used in politics and advertising, let Blizzard manipulate them - other players suffer from it.

This is long term Wow problem - Blizzard do terrible things, because players let them do it. Wow is still P2P+B2P+microtransactions game, despite of terrible quality and quantity of content, because players are ready to pay their money. If majority of players will refuse to pay sub tomorrow - Blizzard will have to improve quality of content or remove sub fee immediately.

I mean, there wouldn't be anything bad, if Blizzard would try to grab extra money from some players via manipulating them. That's how advertising works - nobody forces you to buy anything - only convinces. But Blizzard manipulate players to make them accept changes, that force other players to do, what they don't want to do. This is called dictate. And this is bad.

Again no big surprise. The apple this morning that I ate was green. My wife buys them for some reason even though they are more expensive. I cannot tell a damn difference. I would image you don't care about this very much that but that is exactly how I feel about your opinion. Big freakin deal bro. Blizzard is just being an evil corporate power. Big fuckin surprise. It is the way of the world. If you want to change that aim a little higher than video game studio. I also get it that in your circular argument that I am exactly how you would explain the problem and all that. Blah blah blah. I like Blizzard products. Fucking sue me for it. But don't try to explain it to me because then you are the manipulator pushing your point of view around and claiming it is some sort of "education" or some shit.

[rda]

That being said, why am I trying when hte fact you made this thread is enough evidence it's pointless to argue with you?

I think you are being too harsh. OP feels manipulated, that's all. Many do. I disagree that the blues are actively trying to deceive players, etc, but I can see where this is coming from - the blues aren't sincere, they are vague and they are being deceptive a lot of time.

[Dhrizzle]

The purpose of this thread - is exactly to prevent players from buying into this demagogy. I.e. when Blizzard write posts, like this, it should be followed by wall of "Demagogy detected" comments.

Also:

Dourble standards - Blizzard accept argument, when it suits them, but reject it, if it doesn't. If they talk about 2M gold/500$ P2W Spider mount - "We want to satisfy all players - even tiny minority". If they talk about flying - "50% players want it? It won't happen - no compromise". Or they say, that they hate, when players use hyperboles, yet they constantly use them by themselves (worst case scenarios and exaggerations, such as "players completely skill content via flying").

What are you talking about? There is a flying compromise, the Pathfinder achievement. It's even mentioned (obliquely) as a "convenience perk" requiring "extensive outdoor gameplay."

[Sinyc]

The problem is their stance. They approach players in order to placate them and explain how things are. They should approach them in order to fucking listen.

The communication should be two-way, yet for years it has been 99% them lecturing players on how they should play and what they should like. They do listen and sometimes they even react, but the amounts of that are miniscule. Ie, players have yelled for months now about changes to PVP gear being absolutely terrible and a step back, yet instead of talking seriously about the numerous issues brought up by the players, the blues just repeat for the 15th time how things are going to work telling players that it's going to be alright. The whole of their reaction to player feedback on this is "we will have something to reduce the chance you get the same drop twice, so don't fear the RNG" - that's a vague pretend-fix for one of the side issues.

It's pathetic.

I can see some of what you said. But if you think you can run and code the game better, by all means apply and make a difference. Otherwise, shut up.