Not enough Raiders in Trion Rift - Raids nerfed 50% ???

[Edge-]

I wouldn't say WoW feels F2P at all, though neither does Rift. WoW is at least up front about the fact that it is P2P though whereas Rift tries to hide behind this F2P mask, but if you do play as F2P, you quickly realize that you are severely limited on a free account.

Eh, you're more limited now, but "severely" is something I'd throw at a game like SWTOR, not Rift. Rift is more hiding its B2P nature (with the current $50 pack, at least) behind F2P than anything else, and that's kinda fine.

Yeah, if you want to play super seriously you need to sub, but that goes for almost every single F2P game with a sub option.

[Lathais]

Eh, you're more limited now, but "severely" is something I'd throw at a game like SWTOR, not Rift. Rift is more hiding its B2P nature (with the current $50 pack, at least) behind F2P than anything else, and that's kinda fine.

Yeah, if you want to play super seriously you need to sub, but that goes for almost every single F2P game with a sub option.

No AH, not able to choose specific dungeons and missing gear slots is severely limited IMO. Yeah, SWtoR is worse, even locking action bars, but it's still pretty limiting.

[Edge-]

No AH, not able to choose specific dungeons and missing gear slots is severely limited IMO.

No AH is the worst of those, as you rarely need to choose specific dungeons for anything (though losing that ability is fucking lame as shit). And even so, it's similar to SWTOR, where certain things are restricted/limited before you spend at least $5 on the game.

Yeah, SWtoR is worse, even locking action bars, but it's still pretty limiting.

Rift, even with the new limitations, is still infinitely less restrictive than SWTOR is.

[StrawberryZebra]

You do want to choose specific WF's though for weekly quests, those are locked away behind Patron. Its not much of an issue if you do a lot of PvP, but if you're just there for the quest its a pain in the neck to deal with. You do, occasionally, want to run specific dungeons too if you're chasing a drop from them, but that phase usually passes if you're lucky.

Still would have prefered Rift to be more open about their payment model though. Its still being advertised as "No tricks. No Traps" on Steam and other places. Its hard to argue thats sitll the case when, as Edge pointed out, its functionally a buy to play model. I'm not really sure why more MMO's haven't adopted a buy to play model at this point, GW2, TSW and ESO all seem to be doing just fine with it but the idea of paying a sub seems to be ingrained into MMO culture and any game without one risks being seen as being unsucessful.

I don't think Rift can reasonably switch at this point without provoking more ire. A game thats gone through three business models wouldn't exactly be one that I'd feel confident enough in to spend any significant amounts of money on.

[Lathais]

No AH is the worst of those, as you rarely need to choose specific dungeons for anything (though losing that ability is fucking lame as shit). And even so, it's similar to SWTOR, where certain things are restricted/limited before you spend at least $5 on the game.



Rift, even with the new limitations, is still infinitely less restrictive than SWTOR is.

Yeah, but at least in SWtoR, you can just sub and then have everything, or only pay to unlock what you want. You have choice. That is not the case in Rift. You have to buy all the unlocks separately from your subscription. So it's ok for more things to be limited in SWtoR as all it takes is a sub to get around it. I'd say that's far less restrictive actually.

[Edge-]

Yeah, but at least in SWtoR, you can just sub and then have everything, or only pay to unlock what you want. You have choice. That is not the case in Rift. You have to buy all the unlocks separately from your subscription. So it's ok for more things to be limited in SWtoR as all it takes is a sub to get around it. I'd say that's far less restrictive actually.

Now it does in SWTOR, but prior to this expansion you had to purchase other expansions a la carte, just as you do in Rift now with the $50 pack they're selling. Though the way they're monetizing the current expansion (in SWTOR) is through incentivizing subbing through the whole thing for additional content, one piece of which is a new chapter of content only available to those that subscribed throughout the whole 8 months of the expansion content.

You can't really compare them 1:1 like you're doing, because they're both monetized very differently. And honestly, I doubt you'll find many who would agree that SWTOR is less restrictive than Rift. SWTOR is incredibly restrictive without a sub, Rift minimally so. You can still raid in Rift without a sub, can't in SWTOR. Heck, you can't even PvP without a limit on how many warzones you run a week without a sub.

We could go on about this, but at the end of the day Rift, while it's increased its barrier for entry and removed some features for F2P players (leaving a lot of folks unhappy) is still less restrictive, especially for F2P players, than SWTOR is.

[Lathais]

Now it does in SWTOR, but prior to this expansion you had to purchase other expansions a la carte, just as you do in Rift now with the $50 pack they're selling. Though the way they're monetizing the current expansion (in SWTOR) is through incentivizing subbing through the whole thing for additional content, one piece of which is a new chapter of content only available to those that subscribed throughout the whole 8 months of the expansion content.

You can't really compare them 1:1 like you're doing, because they're both monetized very differently. And honestly, I doubt you'll find many who would agree that SWTOR is less restrictive than Rift. SWTOR is incredibly restrictive without a sub, Rift minimally so. You can still raid in Rift without a sub, can't in SWTOR. Heck, you can't even PvP without a limit on how many warzones you run a week without a sub.

We could go on about this, but at the end of the day Rift, while it's increased its barrier for entry and removed some features for F2P players (leaving a lot of folks unhappy) is still less restrictive, especially for F2P players, than SWTOR is.

AFAIK, subbing in SWtoR unlocked everything like the AH, action bars, bag slots and all the restrictive things they had in place, even from the start of F2P. I'll admit, as a complete F2P player, you have things far better in Rift. However, if you sub to Rift, you basically get jack shit, if you sub in SWtoR, you get everything minus expansions, though apparently you get those too now.

So Rift treats their F2P players better than SWtoR but SWtoR treats their paying customers better, IMO. Which makes more sense?

[Edge-]

AFAIK, subbing in SWtoR unlocked everything like the AH, action bars, bag slots and all the restrictive things they had in place, even from the start of F2P.

It does for as long as you sub (you could purchase the bag slots), but once you end the overwhelming majority of the restrictions are put back in place.

I'll admit, as a complete F2P player, you have things far better in Rift.

Infinitely. Sure, you can't use the AH unless you spend $5+, but that's pretty minimal.

However, if you sub to Rift, you basically get jack shit, if you sub in SWtoR, you get everything minus expansions, though apparently you get those too now.

You get the AH unlocked permanently, and the perks of the sub (including the restoration of features previously provided to free players) for the duration. You do still need to purchase additional souls and Primalist, but again, that's much more akin to what SWTOR used to do with its expansions it sold. On top of the fact that if you want the "full" content of the currently SWTOR expansion, you need to have been subbed since last you until August of this year. If you have not been, you do not get the additional story chapter where you play as HK-55. So technically that's around $100 for the full content, as it's released, for SWTOR right now (you only get additional chapters if you sub, but are granted any already released chapters if you sub partway through).

So Rift treats their F2P players better than SWtoR but SWtoR treats their paying customers better, IMO. Which makes more sense?

They both treat their subbed players roughly the same, especially considering Rift is adding new souls which add new roles onto existing classes (as well as a brand new class) whereas SWTOR is still rolling with the same classes/advanced classes they've had since launch day.

The big difference is how it comes to presenting this "expansion" content (the new souls for Rift and the actual expansion content for SWTOR) and how it's monetized. If you boil it down, they both still require folks to do more than sub for a bit to access the full content presented in their expansions.

[Lathais]

I guess the whole thing to me is just the fact that Patron seems stupid, especially to a maxed out player. In SL, when I was at the top of the game, Patron was really a complete and absolute waste for me and that just felt wrong. Since then, the entire model has just felt wrong to me. Granted, this is just my feels, but my feels are my feels and it feels wrong to me. I really want to love the game again, but I just can't get over the fact that something about it's payment model feels wrong.

[StrawberryZebra]

I guess the whole thing to me is just the fact that Patron seems stupid, especially to a maxed out player.

This almost certainly prompted the recent changes to Patron. Since its didn't provide anything substantial to the people who were at the top, they geared it up more for the people who are at the bottom, to help them speed their way to the top. Quite a lot of what is in there isn't even useful for people who are just starting out either. Remote Trainers are outdated, portable mailboxes and bankers are unneeded. The only unique perks are Artifact tracking and being able stack dungeon charges. Its basically a long lasting booster potion. It leaves it with a small potential market of just fresh 65's who are looking to catch up ASAP.

Its a problem that other F2P MMO's have too. They struggle to offer long term benefits which are enticing, but at the same time aren't flat out so good that they're absolutely required. SWTOR's method of letting you get the next chapter in their story if you're subbed is probably the most creative way around it I've seen, though in practice its more akin to buying DLC than it is subbing for a month. You pay for the content, play it, then move on and come back when theres more on offer. At least it offers you something worthwhile to go along with that sub fee rather than an assortment of boosts,

[Slipmat]

If you absolutely, positively need to run a specific Dungeon as a F2P player, simply run to the portal and enter manually, your whole group will get ported in, you'll be hard pressed to find people who will run a specific Dungeon because you can only get the tokens from Random queue with charges, obviously Warfronts don't have portals so you're stuck with Random queue only as F2P

At the end of the day the essentials "must have" unlocks are Auction House (€/$5) and earring slots, maybe Planewalker: Water and...that's it, if you simply, absolutely must have everything for whatever reason like extra souls, new calling then pony up and buy, no such thing as a free lunch, money has to come from somewhere but bear in mind, even as a F2P player you are not restricted to the content and how often you can run said content.

If you want to run Dungeons, Warfronts, Instant Adventures 24/7 until your eyes bleed, you can, with no restrictions

[Lathais]

If you absolutely, positively need to run a specific Dungeon as a F2P player, simply run to the portal and enter manually, your whole group will get ported in, you'll be hard pressed to find people who will run a specific Dungeon because you can only get the tokens from Random queue with charges, obviously Warfronts don't have portals so you're stuck with Random queue only as F2P

At the end of the day the essentials "must have" unlocks are Auction House (€/$5) and earring slots, maybe Planewalker: Water and...that's it, if you simply, absolutely must have everything for whatever reason like extra souls, new calling then pony up and buy, no such thing as a free lunch, money has to come from somewhere but bear in mind, even as a F2P player you are not restricted to the content and how often you can run said content.

If you want to run Dungeons, Warfronts, Instant Adventures 24/7 until your eyes bleed, you can, with no restrictions

and honestly, I don't mind paying. Really. It just feels like the method of paying them is wrong. Don't get me wrong, I am still giving it a shot. I spent $50 on some credits so my wife and I could get caught up on stuff we needed. Then I did not really touch the game all that much this past week as my wife is taking forever to level to 65. She should be three today or tomorrow. I already have 800+ Hit in my DPS/Healer gear, but from what I understand, mages are not the best at healing Experts as a freshly geared 65. Physician is better, so she is probably going to go that route at first and I'll tank, so I need to work on getting my Tank set ready as she gets her DPS/Heal set ready.

[thewallofsleep]

Crafting is a joke in Rift and there are no real incentives to even level it up, unlike in WoW where you really HAVE to level 2 professions because they affect your stats.

Unless I misunderstood, crafting profession in WoW no longer have stat increasing benefits for the crafter. The did away with that in Warlords of Draenor. A couple of higher stat gems for jewel crafters is gone, enchant able rings for enchanters is gone, better shoulder enchants for scribes are gone, etc.

[thurizas]

Unless I misunderstood, crafting profession in WoW no longer have stat increasing benefits for the crafter. The did away with that in Warlords of Draenor. A couple of higher stat gems for jewel crafters is gone, enchant able rings for enchanters is gone, better shoulder enchants for scribes are gone, etc.

You are correct. Not only did they remove all stat increasing benefits from the crafter, they also removed lots of the craftable items. For example gone are most of the enchants (IIRC the only enchants left are back, neck, ring and weapon). I find myself crafting significantly more in Rift then I ever did in WoW

[Lathais]

No AH is the worst of those, as you rarely need to choose specific dungeons for anything (though losing that ability is fucking lame as shit). And even so, it's similar to SWTOR, where certain things are restricted/limited before you spend at least $5 on the game.



Rift, even with the new limitations, is still infinitely less restrictive than SWTOR is.

Being a returning player and not having run any of them, I would much rather look up vids and a strat for one, then run it, then move on so I can get a better understanding of the mechanics of each one. If I I have to read and memorize strats for each of the possibilities that come up from random...well, that's asking a bit much of a new player I think.

[StrawberryZebra]

Finally managed to strong arm my way into a Mount Sharax raid last night, only took 12 months of trying!

Turns out that I probably shouldn't have bothered, in a few hours of raiding I've now got more people on ignore in Rift than I have in Dota and LoL combined. This community is absolutely vile to each other in a way that I've never seen people behave in a game before. We kicked our Bard just before the first boss, not because he was bad, undergeared of anything like that, but because he dared to try lighten the mood by macroing We are the Champions lyrics to his songs as he buffed us. Bulf had more F words in raid warnings than the Oxford English Dictionary. Jinoscoth was a complete and utter joke, it even included me being accused of having a "Damage Meter Hack" to make myself look good, because there was no way a Harb could be doing that much DPS.

The Ywra-thing-um-ma-jig was horrid too. I've done Yogg Saron before now, I know how to face away from a boss. Some people with 1400 hit and every achivement under the sun still struggle with the idea.

There was so much passive aggression, elitism, ego trips, wipes for the silliest of reasons and arguments over loot. In all my time gaming, I don't think I've ever seen anything even close to this bad before. It was my own personal circle of hell.

[Eleccybubb]

Finally managed to strong arm my way into a Mount Sharax raid last night, only took 12 months of trying!

Turns out that I probably shouldn't have bothered, in a few hours of raiding I've now got more people on ignore in Rift than I have in Dota and LoL combined. This community is absolutely vile to each other in a way that I've never seen people behave in a game before. We kicked our Bard just before the first boss, not because he was bad, undergeared of anything like that, but because he dared to try lighten the mood by macroing We are the Champions lyrics to his songs as he buffed us. Bulf had more F words in raid warnings than the Oxford English Dictionary. Jinoscoth was a complete and utter joke, it even included me being accused of having a "Damage Meter Hack" to make myself look good, because there was no way a Harb could be doing that much DPS.

The Ywra-thing-um-ma-jig was horrid too. I've done Yogg Saron before now, I know how to face away from a boss. Some people with 1400 hit and every achivement under the sun still struggle with the idea.

There was so much passive aggression, elitism, ego trips, wipes for the silliest of reasons and arguments over loot. In all my time gaming, I don't think I've ever seen anything even close to this bad before. It was my own personal circle of hell.

And people say the WoW community is a shitstain. No doubt someone will try and defend this.

[Lathais]

Finally managed to strong arm my way into a Mount Sharax raid last night, only took 12 months of trying!

Turns out that I probably shouldn't have bothered, in a few hours of raiding I've now got more people on ignore in Rift than I have in Dota and LoL combined. This community is absolutely vile to each other in a way that I've never seen people behave in a game before. We kicked our Bard just before the first boss, not because he was bad, undergeared of anything like that, but because he dared to try lighten the mood by macroing We are the Champions lyrics to his songs as he buffed us. Bulf had more F words in raid warnings than the Oxford English Dictionary. Jinoscoth was a complete and utter joke, it even included me being accused of having a "Damage Meter Hack" to make myself look good, because there was no way a Harb could be doing that much DPS.

The Ywra-thing-um-ma-jig was horrid too. I've done Yogg Saron before now, I know how to face away from a boss. Some people with 1400 hit and every achivement under the sun still struggle with the idea.

There was so much passive aggression, elitism, ego trips, wipes for the silliest of reasons and arguments over loot. In all my time gaming, I don't think I've ever seen anything even close to this bad before. It was my own personal circle of hell.

I heard similar stories from people back in SL as well, however, I never experienced any of it. At the time though, I was in a guild and the raid leader of said guild, so that shit didn't happen because I was the one in charge and if it did those people got promptly removed from the raid and possibly the guild.

You know what's weird is with the number of people I see complaining about it, you could probably start a guild. In addition to that, I have seen at least 2-3 guilds recruiting for casual raiding on my server.

I dunno, my Wife hit 65 yesterday and we need to get her hit up to 800 so we can run some experts and get our 1000 Hit Rating and we'll see how it goes. Perhaps I'll record/stream it, because if I say everything goes fine I know people will not believe me, the same way they did not in SL.

[StrawberryZebra]

And people say the WoW community is a shitstain. No doubt someone will try and defend this.

WoWs community may well be a shitstain, I'm in no position to judge right now. But in my experience, it was never this bad. You did get bad group occasionally, and you did run into the odd deliquent here and there, but they were few and far between.

I'd be willing to write it off as simply being an exception, were it not for how accepting Rifts community is of that sort of behaviour, almost as though it were the norm rather than an exception. In Dota and LoL people get called out and banned for far less than what I saw going on in Rift, both Valve and Riot take active measures to clean up their games community. I don't even think Trion have a system for dealing with these kinds of people.

You know what's weird is with the number of people I see complaining about it, you could probably start a guild. In addition to that, I have seen at least 2-3 guilds recruiting for casual raiding on my server.

I've led a raiding guild built from the ground up before too. I have neither the time nor the dedication required to do it again, it requires more effort than I am prepared to put into it to make it successful.

While I could join a guild, the only ones I've found whose raids I could reliably attend were a Russian speaking one and a Polish speaking one. My skills in both of those languages are seriously lacking

[Primalthirst]

Rift isn't haemorraghing raiders, it lost them all a long time ago.

I used to be one of the biggest Rift fanboys in the world, I stopped drinking the Kool Aid a long time ago.

It's a terrible game these days.