What Blizzard say - has all attributes of demagogy

[WowIsDead64]

Its not a game. You are literally wrong.

Literally - maybe. But treating everything literally - is wrong. We are talking about real situation - when I need my flaps in flight - not when my plane has already crashed due to lack of lift. Currently it looks like "We'll give content to pro-flyers, when anti-flyers will no longer need it".

Also. Don't try to derail this thread - it isn't about flying vs no flying. It's about logic, that Blizzard use as justification of it. It has been said many times already - we talk about actual content only, cuz it's content, players pay for, when they buy box and pay their sub fee. We don't talk about "literally" flying. Discussion closed.

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The number of grammatical and spelling errors in an OP claiming players who drink Blizzard's Kool-Aid are "weak-minded" is positively astounding.

You know, Personal attack - is one of the widely used fallacies, when there are no other arguments left.

[styil]

Can you give an example for this one? I think what you are describing is just a very big company having diffrent people work on diffrent parts of the game, not some tactic to distract people from the "one true actual" problem

Draenor dungeon loot changes, class buff/nerf reversal hotfixes 2 days after a patch, legion talent costs, etc.

[Sencha]

Ion's style.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Literally - maybe. But treating everything literally - is wrong. We are talking about real situation - when I need my flaps in flight - not when my plane has already crashed due to lack of lift. Currently it looks like "We'll give content to pro-flyers, when anti-flyers will no longer need it".

Also. Don't try to derail this thread - it isn't about flying vs no flying. It's about logic, that Blizzard use as justification of it. It has been said many times already - we talk about actual content only, cuz it's content, players pay for, when they buy box and pay their sub fee. We don't talk about "literally" flying. Discussion closed.

So, what? You're literally wrong... but hypothetically right? That doesn't make sense.

Its literally a compromise. Just because you don;t like it, doesn't make it any less a compromise.

I'm not derailing. I didn't even bring up flying. You did. Your logic is weak, and the idea behind this whole thread is weak.

You're owed nothing. Discussion closed.

[gamingmuscle]

Literally - maybe. But treating everything literally - is wrong. We are talking about real situation - when I need my flaps in flight - not when my plane has already crashed due to lack of lift. Currently it looks like "We'll give content to pro-flyers, when anti-flyers will no longer need it".

Also. Don't try to derail this thread - it isn't about flying vs no flying. It's about logic, that Blizzard use as justification of it. It has been said many times already - we talk about actual content only, cuz it's content, players pay for, when they buy box and pay their sub fee. We don't talk about "literally" flying. Discussion closed.

It was a compromise. Maybe not the one you wanted, certainly not the one I wanted. But neither side is going to get exactly what they want. But both got part of what they wanted.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

OP, if you don't like wow, stop playing, its really that simple. Or, I guess you could make pointless threads whining about nothing.

I think he is a literal crazy person. I don't mean that to attack him... I'm more worried. Look at his name and his post history. Its wild, full of vengeance and spite.

[Deleted]

So. I've always felt, that Blizzard behave like politicians - they manipulate players with weak minds.

Their communication is - by the standards of billion-dollar-companies - between amateurish and abysmal. Letting developers post both walls of shit in the forum and tidbits on twitter is unforgiveable. Most of them are untrained in communication, some of them are plain stupid. Too often it shows.

Still the politician comparison is off. Politicians can influence your life, even if you don't like them, don't listen to them, didn't vote for them. ATVI is an effing gaming company. Stop giving them money and they will exit your life without even a sad whimper.

[Kolvarg]

It's as simple as this imho: The devs are entitled to make the game as they want, and make the changes they want to make, for whatever reason it might be. The players are entitled to give feedback and stop paying (and therefore not play) if they don't like the game or think it's not worth the money.

We can assume all we want of their inner motivations and true wishes for the game, and dig all we want of how/why they do things the way they do, but it simply comes down to the facts:
1 - The design is decided by a team, not individuals. Because of this there can be internal conflict and indecision on some matters (like flying vs no flying).

2 - They can't simply "listen to the fans" because the fans have wildly varying opinions and wishes on pretty much every single subject, and it's not particularly easy (especially for people like you trying to prove something about Blizz, without real data other than what you "feel") to know how many people are pro, neutral or agaisnt a particular change/decision.

[RedGamer030]

You are right - conspiracy theory articles/shows in Mass Media use Demagogy too. But it has nothing to do with my thread.

I just have my tinfoil hat on whenever I read something from a poster named "WowIsDead64" in a World of Warcraft General Discussions forum.

[Relapses]

I just have my tinfoil hat on whenever I read something from a poster named "WowIsDead64" in a World of Warcraft General Discussions forum.

Give the guy a break, he just found logicalfallacies.org and now has a profound urge to apply his new-found argumentative superiority towards every conversation/concept in the universe.

[l33t]

Also don't forget about a weird segment of players who will criticize Blizzard's changes no matter what. Like, if tomorrow Blizzard decides that all classes will have hundreds of abilities and work according to the exact specifications of 95% of the player base, believe me or not, hundreds of players will arise everywhere stating that this change is terrible and Blizzard shouldn't have made any changes since vanilla, and anyont ewho is a against this change is a stupid casual with millennial syndrome etc. etc.

That is the mind manipulation by Blizzard as well, by the way. Naturally, one could expect that in a product such big as WoW developers would do their best to satisfy all player groups. Instead, they choose the lazy way all teh time, while forcing different player groups into biting each other throats - while we should bite Blizzard's throat together instead.

[Relapses]

That is the mind manipulation by Blizzard as well, by the way. Naturally, one could expect that in a product such big as WoW developers would do their best to satisfy all player groups. Instead, they choose the lazy way all teh time, while forcing different player groups into biting each other throats - while we should bite Blizzard's throat together instead.

In order for that hypothesis to work, you'd have to assume there's a single universal thing which satisfies all players. There isn't. There never will be. We will always disagree on things and Blizzard will never achieve 100% customer satisfaction on every front. Being happy with the way things are isn't "mind manipulation," though; as difficult as it might be to comprehend (especially if you spend any amount of time browsing these forums), some players actually genuinely enjoy the game for exactly what it is.

[Sylvaeres]

Please note, that I don't say "What Blizzard say - is demagogy" - I say, that "What Blizzard say - looks like demagogy".

I've always felt it, but couldn't express this feeling - find a right name for it. Now, I guess, I've found it.

I've been browsing Wikipedia for article about Fallacies to make my post against "My progress is better - then I'm right" argument in "Why don't you show your main?" thread and accidentally came across Demagogy article. English variant of this article isn't good, cuz other variants also mention, what methods Demagogues usually use to reach their goals - such as Populism and Fallacies.

So. I've always felt, that Blizzard behave like politicians - they manipulate players with weak minds. Yeah. Do they need to make some unpopular change, that will bring benefits to them only, but not to players? Players will be against it? Tons of threads with hundreds of pages will appear? What can they do? It's simple! They need to substitute terms! Switch unpopular concept, which that one, that will be popular.

Players won't like no flying, if Blizzard will simply say, that flying is bad? Yeah, say, that this is done for immersion sake, even if immersion argument can simply be proven wrong - and crowd of people will defend it.

Pruning will be unpopular, if Blizzard will openly say, that they want to make game easier in order to bring more new players? Hide it behind "class fantasy" concept, that actually isn't even directly connected with number of buttons, players have.

Via doing it, Blizzard exploits several fallacies - such as:
1) Populism - say, that what you do - is for the sake of what crowd wants and this crowd will support you. Say, that no flying is for immersion sake and crowd, that don't understand, that they've lost immersion, cuz they've outgrown this game and burned out from it due to playing too much - will support you.
2) Dourble standards - Blizzard accept argument, when it suits them, but reject it, if it doesn't. If they talk about 2M gold/500$ P2W Spider mount - "We want to satisfy all players - even tiny minority". If they talk about flying - "50% players want it? It won't happen - no compromise". Or they say, that they hate, when players use hyperboles, yet they constantly use them by themselves (worst case scenarios and exaggerations, such as "players completely skill content via flying").
3) Stawman - substitute flying problem with immersion problem. We need to return immersion, therefore flying is bad - so let's remove flying.
4) Flase dilemma - you can either have "immersion" or "flying"/either "class fantasy" or "deep rotation" - both or some 3rd variant aren't possible.
5) Identifying a false cause and effect - Blizzard implemented flying - then immersion was lost, world became small, WPVP died. Then flying - is the reason, why killing mobs and other players (WPVP), travelling from point A to point B, etc. - are pointless, not concepts of this things themselves.
6) Cherry picking - when Blizzard don't want to do something, they usually cherry pick worst case scenario. For example they have always been refusing to implement Tri-spec, cuz they were afraid, that ALL players will use it for min-maxing, while 90% of players don't care about their performance.
7) Red herring - distract players from a relevant or important issues. Blizzard use scandals with minor things in order to drive players' attention away from real problems. For example, they fix, what isn't broken, make obviously stupid changes only to revert them after several days of forum drama.

The amount of spelling errors in this made me develop dyslexia

[Thimagryn]

The problem is their stance. They approach players in order to placate them and explain how things are. They should approach them in order to fucking listen.

The communication should be two-way, yet for years it has been 99% them lecturing players on how they should play and what they should like. They do listen and sometimes they even react, but the amounts of that are miniscule. Ie, players have yelled for months now about changes to PVP gear being absolutely terrible and a step back, yet instead of talking seriously about the numerous issues brought up by the players, the blues just repeat for the 15th time how things are going to work telling players that it's going to be alright. The whole of their reaction to player feedback on this is "we will have something to reduce the chance you get the same drop twice, so don't fear the RNG" - that's a vague pretend-fix for one of the side issues.

It's pathetic.

That comes from a perspective that all players want the same thing and are saying the same thing. It's clearly indicative of this forum alone that this is not the case. At all. Just take any topic and you'll see all sorts of differing opinions on any given subject. Blizzard has to deal with all of them, and address them in a way that appeals to everyone (not just the ones they're responding to).

As far as communication goes, I think Blizzard is pretty damned open about their process. Watercooler discussions and talk about their plans and goals moving forward is a LOT considering few other companies actually do this.

As for addressing concerns of the players; this is really and honestly subjective at best. Changes that players want for PVP are no different than the changes people wanted to have flight back in the game or have LFR removed. This is honestly vocal minority at work; despite what actual problems there are with the game people will think they know better despite all the missing data they don't have on the rest of the community. From my own perspective as a PVE-er, I've never seen one satisfied PVPer ever. It's always been a shit show in every expansion, no matter the iteration of gear, skill, balance or fun. Yet people still do it.

[rda]

That comes from a perspective that all players want the same thing and are saying the same thing.

No, it doesn't, I don't know where you are getting this from.

[l33t]

In order for that hypothesis to work, you'd have to assume there's a single universal thing which satisfies all players. There isn't. There never will be. We will always disagree on things and Blizzard will never achieve 100% customer satisfaction on every front. Being happy with the way things are isn't "mind manipulation," though; as difficult as it might be to comprehend (especially if you spend any amount of time browsing these forums), some players actually genuinely enjoy the game for exactly what it is.

"The game" is too big of a generalisation. Of course any sane person who plays the game enjoys some aspects of it, because it would be insane to keep playing the game which one completely hates otherwise. Even people who give lots of criticism to Blizzard still are enjoying parts of the game.

Now, back to compromises. let me just help you and give you a plain example of what I am talking about. Example: the infamous flying debacle. If Blizzard really really wants people to not fly, they could apply no-flying aura to quest hubs, or create some evil birds who instantly dismount players who use their flying mounts, etc, etc. I won't even start on world being absolutely trivial, non-engaging and not threating and unrewarding, which is also a huge fail on developer's part, when they could make a player want to kill that mob on a ground instead of skipping it with a fly mount. They could make flying mounts with a fatigue bar, allowing only short bursts of flight. But hey, making things like that involve actually working on game, so instead they go lazy route and just flip switch.
I fail to see any logical in-game explanation of why being able to use flying mounts is now tied to how many stupid factions your character is exalted with or how many treasures your character collected. Would you like if your ability to enter raiding instance suddenly would be tied to how many fish you've catched? That's the same. Not to mention that we have yet another mind manipulation issue, when developers, to hide the fact that the world is absolutely trivial and non-savage and there is no world content in it, force two groups of players into a fight about absolutely trivial and nonimportant thing - ways of travelling, which never was an issue. Blizzard have done it before - the infamous "casuals" versus "hardcore" debacle.
I don't like when developers, instead of doing their job, want to mask their laziness by dividing their community into groups which are forced to hate eash other, because each group believes that latest changes in the game are the result of their rivals whining, while the sad truth is its only Blizzard's fault, who try to save money on WoW's development.
No, I don't believe there is a simple answer which pleases every possible player. Of course no. There is a hundred of small simple answers that do, though. But that involves work, which Blizzard don't want to do, sadly.

[Thimagryn]

No, it doesn't, I don't know where you are getting this from.

From your post and the examples within it.

[Relapses]

"The game" is too big of a generalisation. Of course any sane person who plays the game enjoys some aspects of it, because it would be insane to keep playing the game which one completely hates otherwise. Even people who give lots of criticism to Blizzard still are enjoying parts of the game.

Now, back to compromises. let me just help you and give you a plain example of what I am talking about. Example: the infamous flying debacle. If Blizzard really really wants people to not fly, they could apply no-flying aura to quest hubs, or create some evil birds who instantly dismount players who use their flying mounts, etc, etc. I won't even start on world being absolutely trivial, non-engaging and not threating and unrewarding, which is also a huge fail on developer's part, when they could make a player want to kill that mob on a ground instead of skipping it with a fly mount. They could make flying mounts with a fatigue bar, allowing only short bursts of flight. But hey, making things like that involve actually working on game, so instead they go lazy route and just flip switch.
I fail to see any logical in-game explanation of why being able to use flying mounts is now tied to how many stupid factions your character is exalted with or how many treasures your character collected. Would you like if your ability to enter raiding instance suddenly would be tied to how many fish you've catched? That's the same. Not to mention that we have yet another mind manipulation issue, when developers, to hide the fact that the world is absolutely trivial and non-savage and there is no world content in it, force two groups of players into a fight about absolutely trivial and nonimportant thing - ways of travelling, which never was an issue. Blizzard have done it before - the infamous "casuals" versus "hardcore" debacle.
I don't like when developers, instead of doing their job, want to mask their laziness by dividing their community into groups which are forced to hate eash other, because each group believes that latest changes in the game are the result of their rivals whining, while the sad truth is its only Blizzard's fault, who try to save money on WoW's development.
No, I don't believe there is a simple answer which pleases every possible player. Of course no. There is a hundred of small simple answers that do, though. But that involves work, which Blizzard don't want to do, sadly.

You're making a predetermined assumption the reason Blizzard doesn't do things is because they're lazy. Or that the reason they decide to go against "the community" is because they could give a fuck. Is it too unreasonable for a player to simply accept that things are the way they are without trying to invent reasons to be angry with Blizzard?

[Deleted]

Rant/whine.

Was this thread really needed?

Seriously why dont you move on with your life instead of being so cought up with this shaming scheme you have going on?

Does life have nothing more worthy to offer you?

[WowIsDead64]

It's as simple as this imho: The devs are entitled to make the game as they want, and make the changes they want to make, for whatever reason it might be. The players are entitled to give feedback and stop paying (and therefore not play) if they don't like the game or think it's not worth the money.

We can assume all we want of their inner motivations and true wishes for the game, and dig all we want of how/why they do things the way they do, but it simply comes down to the facts:
1 - The design is decided by a team, not individuals. Because of this there can be internal conflict and indecision on some matters (like flying vs no flying).

2 - They can't simply "listen to the fans" because the fans have wildly varying opinions and wishes on pretty much every single subject, and it's not particularly easy (especially for people like you trying to prove something about Blizz, without real data other than what you "feel") to know how many people are pro, neutral or agaisnt a particular change/decision.

That's, what this thread is about. Yeah, Blizzard definitely don't do, what all players want. Because in some situations they simply can't do it, cuz players' demands are mutually exclusive. Or don't want, cuz effort < profit. But at the same time they want to keep as much players playing, as possible. Just because "Blizzard make game for themselves" argument is wrong - game won't be possible without players, who play it. Simply because they pay for it's development. So Blizzard HAVE TO provide reasons behind changes, they make. And this reasons should satisfy as many players, as possible. And this is when demagogy comes into action.