[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[Wrecktangle]

I'm trying to keep it as civil as possible (although I think the tone of my last post was still a bit snide - but then again I'm Canadian ) but it's getting more and more difficult that he doesn't see glaring issues that are being brought up by many people. Also the whole "it's clunky ergo it demonstrates skill" argument is infuriating.

Well, I'd considered pointing out that he's been playing WoW since Vanilla yet doesn't have any top level raiding achievements in all that time. He also does about half the damage of the other Ret in his guild on priority targets at times, so even in his own limited guild he's hardly a giant Redwood in a tiny allotment. But when you do that, you just end up coming across as a dick who wants to stifle anyone's views that don't match your own.

I think his knowledge of ret is even further questionable by the fact that he plays Holy main, not Ret (at least according to his HFC logs).

I just read his posts, there is no point to replaying to him or trying to talk sense into him, he is one of those delusion fools who live in their own little word. Best part about his posts how he brought up being a skilled Ret playing since vanila, yet he has no PvP titles nor PvE high end achievements, when some1 brought it up, this "skilled" Ret started mumbling some type of "being bad at math" insults lol.

Yep. I'm so sad I don't have access to those forums.

[Deleted]

Its wasn't lost, I remember it quite well and in its own way could be fun I'll agree. The issue at hand is the removed the ability and are clearly set set with this kit, the kit can work mind you but it's mechanics needs vast buffs.

Understood. BUT:

1. it doesn´t have to be Exo they could call it "god damn reg" for all I care it just needs to be some kind of skill that applies the debuff
2. we do have sufficient room in our rotation t fit it in even if not it would force us to make a decision "will I have enough HP when Judge comes of cd when I hit xxx? Can I afford to skip the builder debuff in favor off more TV during judge?"
3. I wan´t my exo bitch back! It was good enough all the time when they wanted to staple something on us.

[Anardel]

Blizzard's silence on ret issues makes me sad. But they can be planning a spec rework in next builds... Hell no, they're ignoring us for sure. Let me live with my negativity.

[Ulthane]

Understood. BUT:

1. it doesn´t have to be Exo they could call it "god damn reg" for all I care it just needs to be some kind of skill that applies the debuff
2. we do have sufficient room in our rotation t fit it in even if not it would force us to make a decision "will I have enough HP when Judge comes of cd when I hit xxx? Can I afford to skip the builder debuff in favor off more TV during judge?"
3. I wan´t my exo bitch back! It was good enough all the time when they wanted to staple something on us.

The thing was there was a build where Judgment did both finishers and generators : / like real talk that would have been simple enough to work.

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Blizzard's silence on ret issues makes me sad. But they can be planning a spec rework in next builds... Hell no, they're ignoring us for sure. Let me with my negativity.

Which is why I took full advantage of their silence because lord knows they gotta read it.

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But yea @CptKnusper the way I did incorporate what you said before was simply by buffing our generators with out the need of such a mechanic. It's clear our generators need to be hitting hard and it's clear we need a way to deal with capping too much Holy power. Which is why vast damage increases were presented and a refined Conviction mechanic.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Blizzard's silence on ret issues makes me sad. But they can be planning a spec rework in next builds... Hell no, they're ignoring us for sure. Let me with my negativity.

You aren't the only one they are ignoring. Mistweavers,Brewmaster and other classes to so let's not go down the"Woe is me path."


To elaborate on our generators. Crusader Strike(If it's formula is just based on Weapon damage) should at least be close to 300% weapon damage.

[Anardel]

You aren't the only one they are ignoring. Mistweavers,Brewmaster and other classes to so let's not go down the"Woe is me path."

That's true, I don't know the feedback from other specs, and sure ret is not alone. But ret community is very active (you can see the number of feedback pages in the forum) and we wrote a lot of solutions. To be honest ret only need a few tweaks to be more enjoyable: lock GBlessings into 1 of each type (don't balance us with 3 Mights in mind) and allow to recast them in combat; make Judgement debuff a selfbuff on the paladin; add some kind of proc (for example, CS resets BoJ/BoW and grants an instant & free FoL, you choose) and buff ret damage across the board to meet the other specs dmg (actually ret is doing like the 60% of other DPS specs damage) and that's it. It won't be perfect but at least we can deal with it.

[Deleted]

But yea @CptKnusper the way I did incorporate what you said before was simply by buffing our generators with out the need of such a mechanic. It's clear our generators need to be hitting hard and it's clear we need a way to deal with capping too much Holy power. Which is why vast damage increases were presented and a refined Conviction mechanic.

My main point actually is to allow our builder to actually scale with mastery. Mastery only working for finishers is what Destro locks already have - the finisher scaling with crit. BUT they do have charred remains which actually makes crap builders even crappier in exchange for for finishers.
And tying it to another skill is just so blizz is more likely to consider it. Logic seems to be is it gated it is good enough for ret.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Understood. BUT:

1. it doesn´t have to be Exo they could call it "god damn reg" for all I care it just needs to be some kind of skill that applies the debuff

ara ara ara~

2. we do have sufficient room in our rotation t fit it in even if not it would force us to make a decision "will I have enough HP when Judge comes of cd when I hit xxx? Can I afford to skip the builder debuff in favor off more TV during judge?"

nobody cares.
something something usual rebuttal about how you can talent into FoJ and DP.

3. I wan´t my exo bitch back! It was good enough all the time when they wanted to staple something on us.

you'll have it, sure as sure.
as a talent.
a few expansions later.
just like Concecration.

[Ulthane]

My main point actually is to allow our builder to actually scale with mastery. Mastery only working for finishers is what Destro locks already have - the finisher scaling with crit. BUT they do have charred remains which actually makes crap builders even crappier in exchange for for finishers.
And tying it to another skill is just so blizz is more likely to consider it. Logic seems to be is it gated it is good enough for ret.

Only that their mastery is passive/random.

The proposed change affects the damage of Judgment and the debuff strength presented. Aoe would be buffed greatly to compensate for that.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Also keep in mind, I'm posting in the Feedback thread to. I've been watching the Ret Discussion for months and we got a massive surge of discontent in the last week or so. If anything, it shows Rets are pretty devoted(No pun intended) to the Paladin class. Just a matter of time for a new build or whenever things change. Also I posted.

[Animefreak3K]

oh yeah enough tools
1) hardcasting FoLs
2) totally undispellable SoV mitigations
3) linking over the match splash healing through Luminescence or theothertalentwhatsitsname
4) mightiest immunity on shortest cooldown of 5 minutes
oh and last but not least
5) gallopping the feth away from the fight on a glorius Steed of Light

did I miss a thing?

Healing from Divine Storm (+20y range)
Luminescence is for Support, you can spec into Holy Ritual which is a 2-phased heal.
Blessings of Kings
Blessing of Wisdom (more powerful if fixed)
Justcar's Vengeance, Word of Glory or Eye for an Eye
Divine Intervention or Seal of Light
Hardiness, Reinforced Armor or Sparring (other spec have this too, but with BoK and BoW those are getting stronger)
Justictication or Unbound Freedom
Pure Heart can also help surviving, because Blessing of Wisdom triggers it
Blessing of Sanctuary
Cleanse Toxins
Blessing of Protection (3,5min CD)

[Deleted]

Only that their mastery is passive/random.

The proposed change affects the damage of Judgment and the debuff strength presented. Aoe would be buffed greatly to compensate for that.

sorry was talking about live. there it is a very active building with a lot of control which actually profits from more than one secondary stats haste speeding up casts AND crit not only adding dmg to the builder but actually adding more ember building.
As for us rets I´don´t see them moving a yota from their position to castrate ret AE so I don´t even argue against it and just want to see mastery affecting all single target attacks...

[Morally Grey Storm]

Healing from Divine Storm (+20y range)

which has nothing to do with anything, since if youre using Divine Tempest to heal people in PvP, and are going to count on it, the conclusion is obvious.

Luminescence is for Support, you can spec into Holy Ritual which is a 2-phased heal.

Holy Ritual can be procced by 2 blessings , 1 of which you wont ever ever never ever never at all put on anyone but yourself, which is HoF, so yeah, once in 5 mins you gon heal someone, at the cost of a yalent and a hoP cast. yay.

Blessings of Kings

does it absorb at least half an autoattack of a rouge?

Blessing of Wisdom (more powerful if fixed)

Drownlord pls.

Justcar's Vengeance

requires complicated setup to be utilized fully, requires target have no absorb effects on itself, requires 5 HoPo and Melee range to be used

Word of Glory or Eye for an Eye

One is an aoe melee heal which costs HoPo and has a CD which is very greatest design and you know it, the other does jack against spell damage or ranged attacks. yay.

Divine Intervention or Seal of Light

one costs you any chance at moving around the battlefield at all, second one is so godawful and has nothing to do with defensive tools we were talking about I am lost for polite language.

Hardiness, Reinforced Armor or Sparring (other spec have this too, but with BoK and BoW those are getting stronger)

now this is fun.
Are you so hellbent on proving your agenda , you would list Hardiness of all things?)
List Trinket talents while you're at it

Justictication or Unbound Freedom

what does +10 range on HoJ have to do with anything?

Unbound Freedom?
That one that makes HoF work as a snare cleaner, root remover, our one and only mobility-related tool, and a team utility to boot, act like a sprint as well?
Not like any sane Ret will use it for Sprint alone.
Not like any sane Ret will ever ever never ever under no curcumsrances give it to anyone but himself.
Not like it will be instantly dispelled by any sane enemy.

Pure Heart can also help surviving, because Blessing of Wisdom triggers it

yeah, because while PvPing, you will buff Wisdom, sure as sure.
yeah, because Death by Toxins and Poisons is a real threat come LEgion, and this cleansing matters.

Blessing of Sanctuary

which is totally surprisingly exclusive with Vengeance Aura, meaning you gimp your damage.
But yeah, totally forgot that one.
Not sure I'm gonna utilise it, though.
Feth allies, I want to bash faces in, and bash faces in I shall.

Cleanse Toxins

bwahah
No seriously this is pure gold ))

Blessing of Protection (3,5min CD)

which again does jack against spell damage of which there is aplenty, and is easily dispelled.

Yeah, mighty tools.
Dispel poisons for the win.
Rank1 ahoy.

[Ulthane]

sorry was talking about live. there it is a very active building with a lot of control which actually profits from more than one secondary stats haste speeding up casts AND crit not only adding dmg to the builder but actually adding more ember building.
As for us rets I´don´t see them moving a yota from their position to castrate ret AE so I don´t even argue against it and just want to see mastery affecting all single target attacks...

Exactly what I took into account. I mean it would be ok if mastery doesn't affect aoe so long as they buff aoe coeffs

[Morally Grey Storm]

Why is it DBTS reduces all damage taken huh
E4E is more balanceded I guess then.

[Deleted]

...so long as they buff aoe coeffs

That is exactly what I mean by castrate. no buffs, never ever, to DS. Not even talking about later scaling issues.

Yes I know ret and scaling ... long story ... always an issue -.-

[Ulthane]

That is exactly what I mean by castrate. no buffs, never ever, to DS. Not even talking about later scaling issues.

Yes I know ret and scaling ... long story ... always an issue -.-

Pretty much, I think though for now the points have been made and now it's a matter of waiting for the next build

[Bolt66]

I think his knowledge of ret is even further questionable by the fact that he plays Holy main, not Ret (at least according to his HFC logs).



Yep. I'm so sad I don't have access to those forums.

I think he/she is just one of those people who is so stubborn that they simply refuse to see another PoV despite the majority demonstrating it 10 different ways. With Thete coming in and laying down the hammer on him, I was fine leaving it alone. I'll just down vote any other ridiculous I see by him/her.

Only that their mastery is passive/random.

The proposed change affects the damage of Judgment and the debuff strength presented. Aoe would be buffed greatly to compensate for that.

First off, kudos on the giant post. Many up votes for you my friend.

I liked a lot of it and I think it's a pretty great revamp of what's already there. I'm not sure how the HP generation will keep up with the high cost of Judgment though if we have to switch targets often (and WoA no longer providing it). Perhaps some sort of mechanic to spread/extend/transfer the Judge debuff after it's been applied the first time?

Also while I see where you're coming from by disconnecting AoE from mastery, I think it would cut us off from any sort of interesting gameplay in an aspect of combat that's present quite frequently so maybe we can think of something else for it that's more fun? This is also because I think that if they were just going to give DS a flat damage percentage, it would end up being low (like it is now) and screw us over in cleaves.

Even though I'd love a real gap closer I really like the movement toolkit you've laid out.
Also way to incorporate that absorb idea for TV, I think that would be a nice bonus and give us a little nudge in survival.
I know your DnD background stops you from enjoying rotational exorcism, but I won't hold that against you

Also as for blessings, I still want them gone to be honest. While your version is an improvement, I still don't think it's significant (or attention-grabbing) enough for people to want Rets.

I really like how the return of AoW has gained such a following!

--Edit--
As an addendum to the utility comment, what do we have (or need to have) for people to want a Ret in their mythic+ dungeons (in the same way that DKs are chosen for their grip or warriors for their stuns/bladestorm)?

Also what's the intention of DivPurp lasting a minute?? Is it for an emergency Judgment?

[Ulthane]

@Bolt66 the high cost of Judgment was offset by CS lowering the cd of BoJ so you could generate faster and go over the cap without fear due to proposed conviction. In addition WoA would grant the 5 Conviction instead of Holy Power so you could have 5 HP, use WoA and launch 2 judgments.

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And thank you

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Regardless we do need a variant of AoW

[Bolt66]

@Bolt66 the high cost of Judgment was offset by CS lowering the cd of BoJ so you could generate faster and go over the cap without fear due to proposed conviction. In addition WoA would grant the 5 Conviction instead of Holy Power so you could have 5 HP, use WoA and launch 2 judgments.

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And thank you

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Regardless we do need a variant of AoW

Ah okay I see how you're using conviction now, I had it a bit off. Also please see edits on my last post if you haven't already.