[Balance] Legion Discussion

[huth]

SF = starfall. SnF = Sunfire.

And then we have Stellar Flare. At least we no longer have Starfire.

Still, that gives us the issue of whether one should cast SF or SF first after casting SF, which is further complicated by both SF and SF costing AP, and we need to know what traits to spend our AP on first, as well.

Maybe we should ask for LS to be named Starfire again, have Wrath renamed to Fury and Moonfire to Selene's Fire and Starsurge to... i dunno, Starflow?

Then we could write the entire rotation as "Cast SF".

[restoxpresso]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't the point of all this "complaining" about Starfall, the fact that it requires a setup that isn't seen anywhere else (AFAIK), and though the current version (WoD) is disliked by some, a huge downgrade in QoL for the spell?

There's quite a few camps of opinions on both the WoD and Legion version of Starfall, but it's undeniable that we've gone from a very easy way of AoE'ing to a more complex way of doing so.

And @Gebuz, I don't think it's as easy as saying "If you don't like the ramp up, go FoE"

[Alame]

I'm getting really tired of repeating myself here.

Well, if you really want that FoE has 0 ramp up if you pool AsP from previous trash pack in a Mythic+.

1 out of 3 pulls we get good AoE? Does not address the problem in the slightest.

As for starfall, I think you missed my point. 100% moonfire uptime on more than a few targets is unrealistic, we are not balanced around that. Therefore what you consider our capacity is >100% of the damage we're balanced to do. For instance, if we are balanced around 90% capacity, you'll catch up to the other dps way before you get Moonfire rolling on all targets.

I don't consider 100% moonfire uptime to be capacity. If you go back and read the example, I calculate TTMO from the point you BEGIN casting Moonfires, not when they're all applied. It's still 6+ GCDs.

[restoxpresso]

Something slightly unrelated to the topic at hand, @Alame, those Legion BiS lists in your sig, will you keep those updated?
(I'd just really like to leech off of it, since it means I could slack a bit)

[Alame]

Something slightly unrelated to the topic at hand, @Alame, those Legion BiS lists in your sig, will you keep those updated?
(I'd just really like to leech off of it, since it means I could slack a bit)

Yes, those will be kept up to date throughout Legion as long as I'm actively playing.

[Deleted]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't the point of all this "complaining" about Starfall, the fact that it requires a setup that isn't seen anywhere else (AFAIK), and though the current version (WoD) is disliked by some, a huge downgrade in QoL for the spell?

There's quite a few camps of opinions on both the WoD and Legion version of Starfall, but it's undeniable that we've gone from a very easy way of AoE'ing to a more complex way of doing so.

And @Gebuz, I don't think it's as easy as saying "If you don't like the ramp up, go FoE"

We aoe literally the EXACT same way right now in WoD. Starfall and multidot. We press the exact same buttons. I really wouldn't call it more complex.

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I don't consider 100% moonfire uptime to be capacity. If you go back and read the example, I calculate TTMO from the point you BEGIN casting Moonfires, not when they're all applied. It's still 6+ GCDs.

But it isn't 6 GCDs, it is just 2, one for SF, one for SnF. The way you play in mythic+ will be something like this:
When mobs start dying you stop casting Starfall, in order to pool AsP for the next pull. So every trash pack after the first one, your ramp up is 2 GCDs.

[Arctagon]

The current tooltip for Starfall threw me off a little. It says, ‘Calls down waves of falling stars at the targeted area, dealing strong Astral damage over 8 sec.’ It gives the impression that there is a set amount of damage distributed among however many targets are inside the graticule, but surely the damage must be multiplied by the number of targets?

[Owlkin]

Let me repeat myself

Funny. Sunfire evolution(dot part):
7.0.1 Build 20740 - 168%
7.0.1 Build 20900 - 336%
7.0.1 Build 21107 - 504%
7.0.3 Build 21473 - 360%
May 3 Last raid test.
May 6 7.0.3 Build 21655 - 300%

SnF+SF+LS is fine. But numbers are tunned down too much. If blizzard buff any of this 3 we will be ok.

[Arctagon]

To add to my previous post: Has anyone figured out the yardage to secondary targets of Full Moon?

[Owlkin]

To add to my previous post: Has anyone figured out the yardage to secondary targets of Full Moon?

http://legion.wowhead.com/spell=2027...-moon#comments

Effect #1 School Damage (Nature, Arcane)
Value: 1 (SP mod: 12)
Radius: 8 yards

8?

[wing5wong]

it hits 3 dummies in shrine, so that far

or that, 8 yards

[Cyous]

My spreadsheet values for Moonfire and Sunfire are 50% SP per tick. (550%, 450%; 22sec,18sec)

[restoxpresso]

We aoe literally the EXACT same way right now in WoD. Starfall and multidot.

I didn't say the spells we use for AoE'ing changed, I said the way we use them is different.

Currently, the cost of a Starfall is a charge, in Legion, it's AP, and since we don't start with the equivalent of 3 Starfall charges, there's a ramp up.

Additionally, a lot of our AoE damage comes from dots in Legion, in WoD, it's possible to still do a lot of AoE damage without dots, and focus single target.

If you deny that that's a downgrade in QoL, I guess we just disagree.

[huth]

My spreadsheet values for Moonfire and Sunfire are 50% SP per tick. (550%, 450%; 22sec,18sec)

I think Owlkin is using base duration. Which doesn't apply to Moonkins. It does make things rather confusing, though.

[Deleted]

I didn't say the spells we use for AoE'ing changed, I said the way we use them is different.

Currently, the cost of a Starfall is a charge, in Legion, it's AP, and since we don't start with the equivalent of 3 Starfall charges, there's a ramp up.

Additionally, a lot of our AoE damage comes from dots in Legion, in WoD, it's possible to still do a lot of AoE damage without dots, and focus single target.

If you deny that that's a downgrade in QoL, I guess we just disagree.

I'm going to say this one last time. AsP ramp up is NOT an issue. Except for the very first trash pack in a dungeon, you can always pool AsP like you could with charges.

Our aoe is also dots in WoD, the only difference is that starfall does less damage if we have no dots up on the target, but that is pretty irrelevant considering you'd always want to dot a target that you actually care about damage on.

I'm not sure what you're calling a downgrade in QoL, changing starfall from a click and forget to a spell you actually have to target and manage uptime on has nothing to do with QoL.

[Alame]

I'm going to say this one last time. AsP ramp up is NOT an issue. Except for the very first trash pack in a dungeon, you can always pool AsP like you could with charges.

Only if you never drop combat, because of the rate at which AsP decays.

Our aoe is also dots in WoD, the only difference is that starfall does less damage if we have no dots up on the target, but that is pretty irrelevant considering you'd always want to dot a target that you actually care about damage on.

I'm not sure what you're calling a downgrade in QoL, changing starfall from a click and forget to a spell you actually have to target and manage uptime on has nothing to do with QoL.

The QoL downgrade comes from the availability of Starfall, not the usability of it.

Yes, there are situations where if executed perfectly you have ramp-up on the first pull of an instance and never again. Untill there's a long hallway with no mobs and you're forced to drop combat. Or your healer has to drink. Or you die. In that case we're telling every boomkin that doesn't have flawlessly chain-pulling tanks, or world-class healers that they don't belong in this content. That is not okay.

My confusion here, comes from the fact that I'm advocating addressing the issue by replacing a talent we all agree is garbage and most everyone wants changed. It changes nothing about baseline boomkin, but gives those unhappy with the ramp-up time an option. Why you're so against that is beyond me.

[restoxpresso]

Why you're so against that is beyond me.

To be fair, it IS easier to just tell people to go play another class.
/Sarcasm

[Juvencus]

I'm going to say this one last time. AsP ramp up is NOT an issue. Except for the very first trash pack in a dungeon, you can always pool AsP like you could with charges.

Our aoe is also dots in WoD, the only difference is that starfall does less damage if we have no dots up on the target, but that is pretty irrelevant considering you'd always want to dot a target that you actually care about damage on.

I'm not sure what you're calling a downgrade in QoL, changing starfall from a click and forget to a spell you actually have to target and manage uptime on has nothing to do with QoL.

I have to agree with Alame.

It's a step back to Cataclysm, regarding damage availability. What AC fixed going from Cata to MoP is now back for Legion.

[Deleted]

Because I don't want a mindless playstyle where I don't have to think about how I play. I don't see our viability depending on it, thus I don't consider it a "problem".

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To be fair, it IS easier to just tell people to go play another class.
/Sarcasm

well, it is easier to just play a class that actually does what you want, instead of complaining about your own class not being able to do it. It's basically the same as complaining about boomkin not being able to tank, because hell I want to tank on my boomkin. It is about as likely to change.

[restoxpresso]

I don't consider it a "problem".

It's basically the same as complaining about boomkin not being able to tank, because hell I want to tank on my boomkin. It is about as likely to change.

Just because you don't think it's a problem, doesn't give you the power to tell everyone else to play something else. Several people have repeatedly stated that they think this is a problem, and while the game shouldn't be changed just because we have an opinion about it, it certainly should just stay the same because you do.

Your arguments are also getting very far fetched, you're right, it would be silly to ask for Balance tanking. However, it's not so insane to ask for Starfall to be changed, because we've had a billion iterations of the spell already.