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  1. #941
    Quote Originally Posted by Crunchh View Post
    Just because you pay for access to something doesn't mean you are entitled or should get to experience it all.
    That's true individually, but it's not true collectively. That's because customers who, in bulk, feel they are not being properly served will leave, and Blizzard cannot ignore mass defections of customers.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  2. #942
    Quote Originally Posted by Aehl View Post
    super snip
    WoW was in fact designed specifically for vertical progression. Getting upgrades to your gear is a huge part of the design. The game was not designed for horizontal progression where gear does not matter. You are meant to upgrade your character to progress through content. In WoW, the core character progression is leveling and then gearing. Yes, there are little odds and ends like achievements that have been added, but those are compliments to character progression, not the core. Gear progression is the core, always has been, and likely always will be.

    As I said, I don't disagree with what you enjoy doing and I'm glad those things are in the game. Is it a challenge to spend inordinate amounts of time completing every achievement? I suppose in a way it is. I thought what I meant was clear, but I see now that it was too open to interpretation.

    The challenge I was intending to speak about was difficulty in content. Long grind achievements like Loremaster are rewarding because they take a lot of time to complete, but are they actually difficult beyond time spent? Do you need to advance your character in any way to complete the achievements you seek? Do you really need to know how to play your class/spec? This is what I mean when I say you don't like to participate in challenging gameplay. That's perfectly fine, but my point is that the game was not designed to be played by a majority who were not seeking Blizzard's core design of character progression. The core design, again, is progressing your character through gear upgrades (once you've leveled to max level). There has never been a time when this has not been true, but yes, there are certainly other ways to enjoy the game.

    WoW put itself on the map as a game based on vertical progression. Over the last 12 years, some people haven't liked that. You sound like you're one of those people who couldn't give a damn about loot because everything you enjoy doing doesn't require you to advance your gear. I'm telling you that the game will never be designed so that there's no difficultly (outside of time) involved. There will ALWAYS be end-game content you're not interested in doing whether that's raiding or difficult 5-mans. That's how the game was designed, and for all the conveniences and shortcuts they've added, they've always stood firm with this: you won't be able to complete all the content the game has to offer and you won't get all the loot the game has to offer UNLESS you have the time and skill. Because that's true, we have a legitimate discussion for those who actually enjoy difficult content. We have a legitimate discussion about why LFR, the way it is today and seemingly Legion as well, is bad for the game. We have a legitimate discussion of why any content that awards loot far above its difficulty level is bad for the game. We have a legitimate discussion of "exclusivity" is beneficial to the game. Just because these things don't suit your own personal idea of what the game should be, does not mean there's no discussion to be had and that anyone who disagrees with your perspective is simply wrong.

    There's an ungodly amount more I want to say, but I'm kinda spent arguing with this about you, so I'll leave it at that. Feel free to respond, but I think we've made our points a few times over.

  3. #943
    The challenge I was intending to speak about was difficulty in content.
    So its only if its hard that its a challenge

    Got it.

    Instead of a huge post I will give you this to chew over.

    All achievements, no matter what they are, are character progression. Your second assertion that WOW is not made for , as you put it , "horizontal progression" is complete and total bullshit.

    I will say this again

    THere is no "right way to play WOW", WOW as an MMO is made for a variety of playstyles, paths and activities. That you see it in this narrow focus is where you fail.

    "Little odds and ends"?

    Take a good look at that character achievement list one of these days. there are FIFTEEN categories and only ONE of them is to do with raids.

    Done with you.
    Last edited by Aehl; 2016-05-23 at 11:42 AM.

  4. #944
    Quote Originally Posted by Aehl View Post
    All achievements, no matter what they are, are character progression. Your second assertion that WOW is not made for , as you put it , "horizontal progression" is complete and total bullshit.
    No matter what terms you put on it, there is a difference. The poster you deride is right about the classic model of wow as a progressively harder character development game. You are right that wow has expanded to include different game styles as well. Opinions on whether trying to combine all these different subgamegenres into one franchise is a good thing differ widely, but that is what we ended up with.

  5. #945
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Degn89 View Post
    Looking up to someone with cool gear used to be a thing FOR SOME PEOPLE. I, and many others like me, never had that feeling. Because this is a game, and that kind of childish mentality is simply retarded.
    Turning an opinion into a fact. Claiming something in a cartoony pg12 game is childish. How childish is this 'oh that person has cool gear, I'd like to have that gear some day.' in a m(multiplayer)orpg.
    Last edited by mmoc748d6be4b6; 2016-05-23 at 08:00 AM. Reason: typo

  6. #946
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Crunchh View Post
    Just because you pay for access to something doesn't mean you are entitled or should get to experience it all.

    If a small child goes to a theme park there are some rides he can't go on. That's okay he can come back when he's bigger and go on them. It's the same in WoW. If you are not good enough to do heroic + raids you should go away, get better at the game, and come back once you can do them.
    Ever thought if someone doesnt want/cant to get better? Want him to leave the game?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    If rather the casual carebears quit and suffer a little less content than suffer shit content. Smaller the playerbase gets the easier the Devs can design the game to the way it should be.
    Is there some kind of holy bible saying how the game "should be"?
    You might want it to be that way, I want it other way...Im democrat, you republican... Any holy bible saying who is right and who is wrong?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilgameshh View Post

    Try reading my other responses and you might understand the problem I have. It's a little deeper than, "People are playing the game for reasons other than raiding. Why do they care?"
    All your responses are opinions presented as facts with denying options to other people. Nothing else, no depth.

  7. #947
    You are right that wow has expanded to include different game styles as well.
    Yes it has, yet Gilgamesh dismisses it as "non challenging"

    Do you need to advance your character in any way to complete the achievements you seek? Do you really need to know how to play your class/spec? This is what I mean when I say you don't like to participate in challenging gameplay
    This kind of arrogance doesnt help.
    Last edited by Aehl; 2016-05-23 at 11:43 AM.

  8. #948
    Deleted
    [QUOTE=Eucaliptus;40468410]Ever thought if someone doesnt want/cant to get better? Want him to leave the game?

    There are many things to do in WoW. If your not good enough to do raiding do PVP if your somehow not good enough for that you can do dungeons, RP, old content. If your somehow so bad at the game that all of these things are a no go for you, maybe you're playing the wrong game.

  9. #949
    Deleted
    [QUOTE=Crunchh;40470598]
    Quote Originally Posted by Eucaliptus View Post
    Ever thought if someone doesnt want/cant to get better? Want him to leave the game?

    There are many things to do in WoW. If your not good enough to do raiding do PVP if your somehow not good enough for that you can do dungeons, RP, old content. If your somehow so bad at the game that all of these things are a no go for you, maybe you're playing the wrong game.
    Or just do LFR, like we do now.
    Other things you mentioned get old very fast, farming LFR on multiple alts is way to go.

  10. #950
    Exclusivity is not bad. Its poisonous.

  11. #951
    [QUOTE=Eucaliptus;40471479]
    Quote Originally Posted by Crunchh View Post

    Or just do LFR, like we do now.
    Other things you mentioned get old very fast, farming LFR on multiple alts is way to go.
    Farming LFR on alts doesn't get old? I really can't grasp that concept. I avoid LFR like the plague, but when I DO have to run it for legendary chain on alts, its an utter disgrace to the game, and it needs to be burned with fire. FIRE!

    Anywho, I didn't want to turn this into an "Anti-LFR" thread, but in a way, it sort of was. If a new player that just reached max level does LFR for the first time, what do you think is going through their minds? Think about that for a minute.

  12. #952
    Deleted
    [QUOTE=Trapped;40475577]
    Quote Originally Posted by Eucaliptus View Post

    Farming LFR on alts doesn't get old? I really can't grasp that concept. I avoid LFR like the plague, but when I DO have to run it for legendary chain on alts, its an utter disgrace to the game, and it needs to be burned with fire. FIRE!

    Anywho, I didn't want to turn this into an "Anti-LFR" thread, but in a way, it sort of was. If a new player that just reached max level does LFR for the first time, what do you think is going through their minds? Think about that for a minute.
    Its your opinion and I respect that.
    Mine is different, try respect it also.
    What I dont get us why you run it on alts while hating it so much? Did someone point a gun to your head?

  13. #953
    [QUOTE=Eucaliptus;40479965]
    Quote Originally Posted by Trapped View Post

    Its your opinion and I respect that.
    Mine is different, try respect it also.
    What I dont get us why you run it on alts while hating it so much? Did someone point a gun to your head?
    To complete the legendary questline? I don't even need the gear due to Tanaan and shipyard caches.

  14. #954
    [QUOTE=Trapped;40488959]
    Quote Originally Posted by Eucaliptus View Post

    To complete the legendary questline? I don't even need the gear due to Tanaan and shipyard caches.
    Why do you need to do the legendary questline on alts? And if you want to do it on alts and hate lfr why not do it on normal or higher in a guild or pug? No one needs to do lfr if the hate it. One chooses to do lfr. See the difference? Why do something you hate?

  15. #955
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    That's true individually, but it's not true collectively. That's because customers who, in bulk, feel they are not being properly served will leave, and Blizzard cannot ignore mass defections of customers.
    So you'd think the large number of customers leaving as the game has gotten more accessible would be a sign then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eucaliptus View Post


    Is there some kind of holy bible saying how the game "should be"?
    You might want it to be that way, I want it other way...Im democrat, you republican... Any holy bible saying who is right and who is wrong?
    The game should be under its original design philosophy that made it popular to begin with.

  16. #956
    Everytime I hear someone use the word "Special Snowflake", I see them as faceless, soul-less robots chanting "one of us".

    Look, whether blizzard should follow an exclusivity pattern or not is the decision of blizzard. But there's no reason to hate on people who like exclusivity. If you don't understand the value of standing out above the rest, of having a competitive nature, you won't understand the OP's point of view. You are actually elitist yourself if you shun those who might like exclusivity as a form of motivation in the game. You believe your point of view, your style of play, is above that of anyone else. That the game should suit YOU, and not those who want exclusivity, pretty damn elitist if ya ask me!

  17. #957
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post

    The game should be under its original design philosophy that made it popular to begin with.
    Well, the game COULD of stay with original design. What direction it should take is a matter of opinion. In my opinion, it took good route and changed for the better.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Narwal View Post
    Everytime I hear someone use the word "Special Snowflake", I see them as faceless, soul-less robots chanting "one of us".

    Look, whether blizzard should follow an exclusivity pattern or not is the decision of blizzard. But there's no reason to hate on people who like exclusivity. If you don't understand the value of standing out above the rest, of having a competitive nature, you won't understand the OP's point of view. You are actually elitist yourself if you shun those who might like exclusivity as a form of motivation in the game. You believe your point of view, your style of play, is above that of anyone else. That the game should suit YOU, and not those who want exclusivity, pretty damn elitist if ya ask me!
    Main problem lies with nature of exclusivity.
    In wow case, "exclusivists" want to remove fun from other players by persuading Blizzard to remove present and future content for others.
    If "exclusivists" said "hey, Blizz, give us one extra boss n raid X and one more mount", I think others would be much more tolerant to "exclusivists". This way nothing would be taken from others, only added.
    Btw, "exclusivists" already persuaded Blizzard to take somehing from majority (lfr tier sets and trinkets).

  18. #958
    Quote Originally Posted by Trapped View Post
    Anywho, I didn't want to turn this into an "Anti-LFR" thread, but in a way, it sort of was. If a new player that just reached max level does LFR for the first time, what do you think is going through their minds? Think about that for a minute.
    For anyone over 20 and remembers difficulty levels being in basically 90% of games dating from the dawn of video gaming they will think is. "Well done it on lowest difficulty level, time to test myself at a higher level." or was there a massive shift in how people wished to play games that passed me by where everyone just sticks to the likes of:

    "I don't want to die." Doom
    "Chieftain." Civ
    "Difficulty level 1" Street Fighter.
    "Easy." C&C
    *Insert every other easy mode in a game here.*

    Instead of building themselves up through the difficulty levels like basically everyone I know who plays video games.

  19. #959
    I dont CARE about gear. I literally DONT CARE.
    Yet you continually complained about this expansion about non-raiders gear being too good. You complained last expansion about feeling forced to do non-raid content as well. You even try to dictate what content casuals can and cannot do as their endgame to suit your personal desires while calling others selfish and elitist who enjoy the game differently than you.
    Last edited by nekobaka; 2016-05-29 at 06:43 AM.

  20. #960
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    So you'd think the large number of customers leaving as the game has gotten more accessible would be a sign then.
    It's not a sign they left because it became too easy. The utterly ludicrous scenario you seem to be suggesting is that players would be happier subbing so they could do little and get less.

    The game was made easier because players were leaving, not vice versa. And I suggest they failed to be courageous enough to truly make the game as easy as it should have been. Retention of the average player would have been improved, I suggest, if mythic-level raiders had been written off entirely and given no content at all. As it stands, the average player is constantly told by the game that they are second or third class citizens and should feel bad about themselves.

    The game plateaued and began to decline when the game structure made it clear to the average player that the end game was designed for the devs' favorite hardcore children, not for them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Narwal View Post
    But there's no reason to hate on people who like exclusivity.
    Except when those players are lying liars who lie about how this would have made the game perform better commercially than it has.
    Last edited by Osmeric; 2016-05-29 at 12:11 PM.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

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