[Beta] Havoc Discussion

[Warstar]

I think the frequency of the adds are as important as the number. I'd say at a rough estimate that 4-5 would be the point where you'd start to look at First Blood, but you'd need situations in which you're hitting adds with each Blade Dance for it to really pay off, which is somewhat of an issue as a talent that's overly focused on sustained AoE is notoriously lackluster.

In terms of when you have First Blood, there's a couple of breakpoints far down the line where it's worse than a CS (crit/mastery combos) so you wouldn't cast it outside of AoE, but generally speaking putting it in there as a spell on CD if you've taken First Blood is how you'd use it. Death Sweep is also really on the cusp since Annihilation resets are extremely valuable, and DS is so close in Fury that even at low crit levels it's something I'd probably err on the side of RNG with that you'll net more resets by just not Sweeping unless there's AoE.

With Chaos Cleave you're really gonna be looking at 4-5 to be spending on Blade Dance consistently.

Felblade and Firstblade have been the most annoying talents to me since neither really seems to have a strong "this is what you use this for". Even in AoE you still are using First Blood for ST damage.

I honestly can't decide which one is the better dungeon talent. Blade Dance will be stronger on trash and the higher use will give better fury over Fel Blade but will be a St nerf so bosses will lower but trash will be higher.

[The Archmage]

Felblade and Firstblade have been the most annoying talents to me since neither really seems to have a strong "this is what you use this for". Even in AoE you still are using First Blood for ST damage.

I honestly can't decide which one is the better dungeon talent. Blade Dance will be stronger on trash and the higher use will give better fury over Fel Blade but will be a St nerf so bosses will lower but trash will be higher.

Felblade should be made baseline imho. Not only because it adds SO much to the class, giving a proc that you can actually work with to spice up your rotation, but also because it's another generator with a movement attached, only that this one is like charge and actually puts you to melee range. It synergizes to well with everything it's invaluable, and the demon's bite reset it's icing on the cake.

For instance, i noticed it probably has an icd, since it almost always proc on the first DB you dish out in a fight, making Felblade an excellent opener for burst heavy fight starts: FB > DB (it usually resets FB straight away) > VR with prepared > FB back in and there > EB while generating > spam AN till you finger bleeds or DS for burst AoE...

[Factor]

Felblade should be made baseline imho. Not only because it adds SO much to the class, giving a proc that you can actually work with to spice up your rotation, but also because it's another generator with a movement attached, only that this one is like charge and actually puts you to melee range. It synergizes to well with everything it's invaluable, and the demon's bite reset it's icing on the cake.

For instance, i noticed it probably has an icd, since it almost always proc on the first DB you dish out in a fight, making Felblade an excellent opener for burst heavy fight starts: FB > DB (it usually resets FB straight away) > VR with prepared > FB back in and there > EB while generating > spam AN till you finger bleeds or DS for burst AoE...

Tbh I'm not sure why it isn't baseline for both Havoc and Vengeance. Minus talents (momentum) that completely alter the playstyle it is the one talent that adds any sort of dynamism to the respective rotations.

[Baelroc]

Isn't it because Blizzard wants to give lazy people a super simple spec?
And for those who wish it, a more complicated/interactive dps rotation? I mean why else would they add something like demon blades

To me, Demon Blades is a talent that screams gear req/scaling. Maybe this isn't the case, but it seems to me that near the end of the expac when we are swimming in crit and haste, Demon Blades will be the go to talent as it will scale very well. Not that its super interesting, but alas...

[The Archmage]

To me, Demon Blades is a talent that screams gear req/scaling. Maybe this isn't the case, but it seems to me that near the end of the expac when we are swimming in crit and haste, Demon Blades will be the go to talent as it will scale very well. Not that its super interesting, but alas...

I agree what it will definetly get better with gear, but the peculiar effect of Meta will force Haste to always be behind Crit, Mastery and Versatility, meaning we won't really stack Haste that much.
Also, if it stays the way it is now, nothing in that row will ever compete with Prepared: it's just too good to be able to get fury during an EB channel, even more so when heavy aoe burst is required, since it allows for a quick Death Sweep follow up.

[Verraxia]

Hey guys! So I actually just recently got into beta (Super excited) and was wondering if y'all wonderful people have thought up what path we should be taking through the artifact traits?

[Warstar]

Hey guys! So I actually just recently got into beta (Super excited) and was wondering if y'all wonderful people have thought up what path we should be taking through the artifact traits?

If you're leveling now and not talking about when it goes live just to let you know Unleashed Demons and Rage of the Illidari are both currently bugged. Pretty awesome having points sitting there doing diddly squat.

[chooi]

Hey guys! So I actually just recently got into beta (Super excited) and was wondering if y'all wonderful people have thought up what path we should be taking through the artifact traits?

Currently it looks like the right path to RotI but mainly to get the reduced CD on Meta (trait still bugged, tho) and the additional 30 Fury for better pooling before Meta phases with Demonic/Momentum. The 3 major traits all seem to be quite weak in comparison, so it's more about what minor traits to get first.

Though, I went the path to the left and are now working on the right path via Meta-CD and I'm also doing fine. The increased crit damage on Chaos Strikes is really awesome and soul fragments via Chaos Nova + Feast on Souls was/is quite helpful in open world questing and trash/add packs.

[Baelroc]

I agree what it will definetly get better with gear, but the peculiar effect of Meta will force Haste to always be behind Crit, Mastery and Versatility, meaning we won't really stack Haste that much.
Also, if it stays the way it is now, nothing in that row will ever compete with Prepared: it's just too good to be able to get fury during an EB channel, even more so when heavy aoe burst is required, since it allows for a quick Death Sweep follow up.

Prepared is definitely too good. I suspect its fury gen to be brought down. Its just the hands down choice for that tier bar none.

[Unkhrahuun the Atoned]

Prepared is definitely too good. I suspect its fury gen to be brought down. Its just the hands down choice for that tier bar none.

I think the CD reduction and how that particular aspect of it interacts with Momentum uptime is at least an equally guilty culprit. Take away the CD reduction and you'll have yourself a decent enough nerf to Prepared and Momentum to possibly make the other options not look so terrible by comparison.

[wordup]

I think the CD reduction and how that particular aspect of it interacts with Momentum uptime is at least an equally guilty culprit. Take away the CD reduction and you'll have yourself a decent enough nerf to Prepared and Momentum to possibly make the other options not look so terrible by comparison.

I agree, the Fury gen is a core aspect to it and I think it adds enough on its own to make it good enough. Compounding it with extra CDR is what pushes it over the edge. On the other hand it generating so much is what syncs it so well with Demonic, so it's a question of how they want to alter it if they choose to do so.

[Vanyali]

I agree, the Fury gen is a core aspect to it and I think it adds enough on its own to make it good enough. Compounding it with extra CDR is what pushes it over the edge. On the other hand it generating so much is what syncs it so well with Demonic, so it's a question of how they want to alter it if they choose to do so.

+ being off the GCD so it doesn't fuck with any sort of timing

[Unkhrahuun the Atoned]

Question for folks: Do any of you think there's a possibility certain talents were made with certain legendary items in mind?

Eye Beam legendary: Blind Fury
Increased TG damage per consecutive target: Bloodlet
Desperate Instincts (?): chest piece that gives leech when Blur is up (since on heavy raid damage throughout, you'd get higher uptime on Blur and therefore the leech)

Any testers think there's any merit to this suspicion?

[Sangomah]

Question for folks: Do any of you think there's a possibility certain talents were made with certain legendary items in mind?

Eye Beam legendary: Blind Fury
Increased TG damage per consecutive target: Bloodlet
Desperate Instincts (?): chest piece that gives leech when Blur is up (since on heavy raid damage throughout, you'd get higher uptime on Blur and therefore the leech)

Any testers think there's any merit to this suspicion?

I can't see why this would be the case.

Seems rather absurd to design something around legendary items that you in all statistical sense won't get. It seems like winning the lottery at the moment.

We are designed enough around stuff we can't get (read demonic) until we hit max level anyway :P

[Unkhrahuun the Atoned]

I can't see why this would be the case.

Seems rather absurd to design something around legendary items that you in all statistical sense won't get. It seems like winning the lottery at the moment.

We are designed enough around stuff we can't get (read demonic) until we hit max level anyway :P

I hate bringing up the comparisons between Legion and D3, but that is precisely where this question is drawn from.

Certain legendaries in D3 kinda force you into using certain abilities, and the Throw Glaive legendary in particular could be rather strong in 3 target situations with Bloodlet where Bloodlet is otherwise pretty terrible compared to the other options on its tier. Besides, in any other situation you could switch out that particular legendary for situations where it wouldn't be particularly useful.

I haven't looked at other classes legendaries too in-depth, which is why I'm only using the examples provided by the Demon Hunter talents and what talents they seemingly pair up with.

I don't think it's too farfetched personally.

[Cooper]

I can't see why this would be the case.

Seems rather absurd to design something around legendary items that you in all statistical sense won't get. It seems like winning the lottery at the moment.

We are designed enough around stuff we can't get (read demonic) until we hit max level anyway :P

Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh at some point Blizzard said it would be possible to target certain legendaries for acquisition. While I doubt that means everybody can expect to have all their coveted legendaries by the end of the expansion, I suspect putting in more effort will equate with a better chance of getting them. And I don't mean in just a "grind mobs until you hang yourself from your doorknob" type of effort.

Though I don't know if that "Targeted Legendaries" thing has been mentioned since, or has shown up in the beta t'all. If nothing else, it seems likely that there will be a WoW version of Magic Find this expansion, sooner or later.

[Sangomah]

Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh at some point Blizzard said it would be possible to target certain legendaries for acquisition. While I doubt that means everybody can expect to have all their coveted legendaries by the end of the expansion, I suspect putting in more effort will equate with a better chance of getting them. And I don't mean in just a "grind mobs until you hang yourself from your doorknob" type of effort.

Though I don't know if that "Targeted Legendaries" thing has been mentioned since, or has shown up in the beta t'all. If nothing else, it seems likely that there will be a WoW version of Magic Find this expansion, sooner or later.

Might also mean that they want everyone to have 1 legendary at the end of the expansion to keep up with the cloak/ring thing?

Seems rather stupid, but it wouldn't surprise me tbh.

Yes, in D3 there are legendaries that force you into a certain playstyle, and that is the point here as well. It Augments something you already have.

Did the legendary items work in bgs? Pretty sure they will be disabled in Arena and RBG's, but the Leech chest will be absurd in pvp :P

[grizzlysaurusrex]

The legendaries don't work in any instanced PvP. Not sure about world PvP.

My momentum idea was at the end of the last thread, but do you all think it would be more palatable to use/balance if momentum was instead a damage combo that read something like: "When you cast Fel Rush immediately after Vengeful Retreat, your Fel Rush deals X% more damage and ends at the first target hit." Edit: it would thematically be like flying back and accelerating forward to crash into your target, transferring your momentum into them.

[Athic]

So is the general consensus now that we go Blind Fury since we can no longer easily cancel VR?

[Qlix]

Difference between 50% more EB damage at the expense of Meta uptime id guess. I cant math this early.