[Legion][Raiding][DPS][Rogue] I Know, I Know, but I would still like your OPINION!

[delus]

I seriously doubt that cloak will be that powerful or even available in game. An 18 million damage FOK on top of assassin's already competitive aoe is just plain broken.

[RobertoCarlos]

reminds me of the diablo 3 weapon lord greenstones fan for demon hunters that stacks up fan of knives damage every second. That item was nerfed and yeah I agree it probably wont make it live in its current state.

John Yang doing his thang.

[Deleted]

I just would like to bring every spec on par with each other in ST and Aoe so that we can decide what we wanna play.
Another option would be to have our talents actually impact gameplay in the way that we can choose for AoE/ST situations.

Right now im just confused to the maximum. I deeply love playing rogue, but right now, everything in legion looks messed up and half baked.

Outlaw seems fun with RTB but is just to shitty random / boring without it
Assa is good old assa, so I like it, but I had wished for some cool new changes (like finally getting rid of that damn boring Vendetta)
Sub was never my friend, not because im to stupid to play it (what some of you might assume) but I just don't like it that much. Changes done to it in Legion don't really make it that much better for me (SoD ... really -.-?)

For me It would be okay to have Sub be the ST King, but only if its like 5% away from Assa/Outlaw.

Blizzard seems lazy and is just pushing by now. I wouldn't even mind Legion to come out in September or even October if it looks nice innovative and finished, now it doesn't even matter if its 1 or 2 month more. We are annoyed by WoD no matter what.

First time ever, since BC when I started, to actually consider changing my main

[Symphonic]

In my opinion, all 3 specs of rogue should provide the same single target and aoe damage, the only difference is the playstyle. If you want poisons, go assassination, if you want bleeds, go subtlety, and if you want to be a pirate, go outlaw. They should theoretically be the same single target and aoe dps, but the way you play the specs is all that changes. That way, it's fun, because you get to play it your way.

[kalaratic]

In my opinion, all 3 specs of rogue should provide the same single target and aoe damage, the only difference is the playstyle. If you want poisons, go assassination, if you want bleeds, go subtlety, and if you want to be a pirate, go outlaw. They should theoretically be the same single target and aoe dps, but the way you play the specs is all that changes. That way, it's fun, because you get to play it your way.

well there's no way that 3 specs with different playstyles will always provide the same ST and AoE. by playing each spec differently, it means that the numbers have to be different as well, there's no way to balance that. like u can't expect spreading 5cp dots on like beastmaster adds is going to do much versus a bladeflurry ks, even if the numbers are tuned to be equal in that situation. and likewise u can't expect a bladeflurry ks to do much on sustained 3 targets when mut is shitting on them with dots and energy regen.

[Will]

In my opinion, all 3 specs of rogue should provide the same single target and aoe damage, the only difference is the playstyle. If you want poisons, go assassination, if you want bleeds, go subtlety, and if you want to be a pirate, go outlaw.

And how it's currently tuned is more like:

Assa: Primarily bleeds (and to a much lesser extent poison) DoTs. Seriously it's just a bleed spec right now.
Out: Very direct-damage RNG, proc-reactive gameplay. Get good RNG, do well. Get poor RNG, suck.
Sub: A blend of shadow damage (DD and DoT) coupled with powerful burst and finishers

Yes, you're right, all 3 should provide more or less similar performance but it's hard to tune correctly.
The whole 'PvP spec/ST spec/AoE spec/Mixed spec mantra is just stupid. Being pigeon-holed sucks.

[Lionpaw]

The whole 'PvP spec/ST spec/AoE spec/Mixed spec mantra is just stupid. Being pigeon-holed sucks.

Exactly, I want to play a Pirate and not feel like I'm gimping my guild in mythic progression.

[Naiattavain]

Which Rogue spec do you THINK will do the best DPS in Legion and why?

Also, how do you think Rogues will stack up against Mages as being 1 of 2 PURE Melee DPS classes (Survival Hunter being the second).

Opinions and reasons for your opinion please.

all the rogue specs work really nice and they do take a very long time to figure out and master; they aren't meant to be as much damage burst as warrior or dk in terms of heavy melee damage. rogues have a hybrid combat style from range to melee. if your being pressured to squeeze more dps, from your lead please consider looking elsewhere for raiding because rogue do great damage they are not supposed to be #1. if a rogue is #1 on your meters somehow raising above you it really means that you not playing your class role as good as the rogue is. rogue is a good reference point to show who is slacking on damage graphs. for raiding 10 man and up 1-2 rogues in the raid makeup is all you need. never class stack the rogue ever. thats the recipe for loosing 90% ratio. as long your rogues are the best of the best of the best of the insane best that survived going to shadowlands.

the days of vanilla rogue are over. noone likes being killed by a rogue.

[maddnesskhaz]

all the rogue specs work really nice and they do take a very long time to figure out and master; they aren't meant to be as much damage burst as warrior or dk in terms of heavy melee damage. rogues have a hybrid combat style from range to melee. if your being pressured to squeeze more dps, from your lead please consider looking elsewhere for raiding because rogue do great damage they are not supposed to be #1. if a rogue is #1 on your meters somehow raising above you it really means that you not playing your class role as good as the rogue is. rogue is a good reference point to show who is slacking on damage graphs. for raiding 10 man and up 1-2 rogues in the raid makeup is all you need. never class stack the rogue ever. thats the recipe for loosing 90% ratio. as long your rogues are the best of the best of the best of the insane best that survived going to shadowlands.

the days of vanilla rogue are over. noone likes being killed by a rogue.

I'm just going to quote this one. This guy knows.

[Deleted]

all the rogue specs work really nice and they do take a very long time to figure out and master; they aren't meant to be as much damage burst as warrior or dk in terms of heavy melee damage. rogues have a hybrid combat style from range to melee. if your being pressured to squeeze more dps, from your lead please consider looking elsewhere for raiding because rogue do great damage they are not supposed to be #1. if a rogue is #1 on your meters somehow raising above you it really means that you not playing your class role as good as the rogue is. rogue is a good reference point to show who is slacking on damage graphs. for raiding 10 man and up 1-2 rogues in the raid makeup is all you need. never class stack the rogue ever. thats the recipe for loosing 90% ratio. as long your rogues are the best of the best of the best of the insane best that survived going to shadowlands.

the days of vanilla rogue are over. noone likes being killed by a rogue.

I think that this is pretty sad. We are one of 4 pure Dps classes and were not supposed to hit rank 1? Why I ask, hybrids can do everything they like, from tanking to healing to doing dos, but we are the ones with restrictions? Hunters, mages, and locks are always good to go with rank 1-5, why are we, as one of them, are left behind?

That would be fine with me, I'm now a casual anyway, if the specs and talents by themselves would be nice, fun and rewarding ...

I would really like to know what it is with blizzard and rogues.

[Deleted]

do not feed the troll

warrior dk heavy damage

[Roiids]

Yeah have you raided with a good mage/lock?

[elfporn]

all the rogue specs work really nice and they do take a very long time to figure out and master; they aren't meant to be as much damage burst as warrior or dk in terms of heavy melee damage. rogues have a hybrid combat style from range to melee. if your being pressured to squeeze more dps, from your lead please consider looking elsewhere for raiding because rogue do great damage they are not supposed to be #1. if a rogue is #1 on your meters somehow raising above you it really means that you not playing your class role as good as the rogue is. rogue is a good reference point to show who is slacking on damage graphs. for raiding 10 man and up 1-2 rogues in the raid makeup is all you need. never class stack the rogue ever. thats the recipe for loosing 90% ratio. as long your rogues are the best of the best of the best of the insane best that survived going to shadowlands.

the days of vanilla rogue are over. noone likes being killed by a rogue.

Where do you get your information? Historically speaking, rogues have been on, or very near, the top (theorycrafting/simcraftage) for most expansions. Damage burst vs warriors or dk's? Well, comparing vs now, we do more burst (ST) than warriors or DK's, but fall short on burst aoe vs warriors, and sustained long-term aoe vs DK's; That's quite different than saying we don't do as much burst.

Outlaw has that hybrid ranged/melee setup with a few medium-range abilities(~20 yards or so), and sub and assassination have shadowstep/shadowstrike. That doesn't make rogues have a hybrid range/melee style at all.

If you're leader is pressuring you for more dps, you look at the encounter, double check your rotation, gear, and buffs, and check peer review sites such as warcraft logs. After checking things over, report back to your leader.

If you're #1 on the meters as a rogue it does NOT mean that everyone else sucks. There are tons of mitigating factors that can affect raid dps as a whole, an example being the imps on mannoroth - if your raid leader expects a certain amount of damage to them from everyone (say 5mil from all) that won't work over the fight because there just aren't enough imps for everyone to do the same damage, as well as classes dealing that 5mil damage in different windows of time (burst vs sustained aoe). It's for this reason that my own raid has only a few people handling imp aoe, and a couple others on stragglers, and everyone else isn't judged on imp damage.
A good leader understands each classes roles and limitations for each fight and the types of damage they are capable of - my raid leader doesn't ask me to damage imps on mannoroth because he knows my aoe sucks balls as sub, and my ST sucks as combat, so i'm assigned to shit on manny while others handle the cleave. (and i still top damage)

Class stacking (on live it's viable, mages/rogues) is never a good thing, for reasons outlined above - each spec has different ways of dealing damage over a period of time, sustained aoe/cleave, burst cleave, single target, burst ST, DoTs - taking advantage of strengths and weaknesses overall doesn't normally call for stacking classes, HFC has been an exception due to the ring.

Your whole post comes across as knowing exactly what will happen, you know all the numbers, you know blizzard's stated goals for the class, rogues will be used as a measure for who sucks, etc. You paint a bleak picture.

Well i call bullshit.

[Mcbenchpress]

Overall I'm pretty happy with general Rogue design and direction. There are a few odd/bad talents (Grappling Hook), but all three specs are unique and can be competitive. I've been in the Alpha since mid January and I have to say that the only class that even remotely comes close to Rogue polish is Shaman. All three specs also have great potential in PvP, which might be a first.

[Roiids]

Was playing beta a bit last night as Outlaw... i'm actually curious how long it will take to power up a second artifact weapon to the same power as your first choice. Because if your first choice is considerably more powerful than a secondary spec then swapping back and forth for the first tier might be tough.

I did get the quest for a second artifact weapon already at level 102 so maybe its easy to power up the second one as well. Was going to try Sub tonight on beta but didn't do the artifact quest yet.

[Konteil]

no clue yet but i think the outlaw gtameplay will at least be fun

[zaino]

no clue yet but i think the outlaw gtameplay will at least be fun

its only really fun when you have specific buffs up

outside of that its worse than painful

[RobertoCarlos]

Yeah roll the bones with 3+ buffs would be fine to play. But any less and egh....Such a balancing nightmare. Don't know why they make it so hard on themselves sometimes. They should have expanded on the MoP and AoC trinket design and baked that into the spec with some pirate flavor thrown in if they absolutely have too.

[mauserr]

Didn't follow any of these long ass videos where the guy has to explain every talent to people who don't play a rogue(looking at you, fatboss, fuck you and your long ass videos with so much bullshit being spoken that doesn't really matter, no hard feelers tho). Anybody got a recent video of Sub/Combat/Outlaw rotations in action? I'd love to see how it plays out but I don't have a beta key and I'm sure as fuck not going to resub just for a chance at beta. I'm miserable playing this game right now... so miserable I'm watching people play Morrowind or Skyrim for the 3943 time on Youtube... and it's much more enjoyable than playing WoD. God I miss MOP...

[Vicus]

Didn't follow any of these long ass videos where the guy has to explain every talent to people who don't play a rogue(looking at you, fatboss, fuck you and your long ass videos with so much bullshit being spoken that doesn't really matter, no hard feelers tho). Anybody got a recent video of Sub/Combat/Outlaw rotations in action? I'd love to see how it plays out but I don't have a beta key and I'm sure as fuck not going to resub just for a chance at beta. I'm miserable playing this game right now... so miserable I'm watching people play Morrowind or Skyrim for the 3943 time on Youtube... and it's much more enjoyable than playing WoD. God I miss MOP...

Set your account to opt in for the beta anyways, Bliz stated a long time ago that you didn't need an active account. On the other hand, I dont have an active account and dont have Beta either, so obviously, they were lying(!) Really, though, I think they may be done giving out random invites until the "stress test" phase, and are using website giveaway promos until then.