Concerning the Legion fantasy of the Order Halls

[Deleted]

I was surprised that warriors get a mythological place in the sky, it seemed too "paladiny" for what I had in mind. Do warriors have that kind of Lore in the game already? From what I can google the halls are ruled by Odyn who is not explicitly a warrior but the concept of valhalla does sound warriory.

[sociald1077]

There is a FFA PVP arena in it. Thats warrior as fuck in my mind. Just jump in and start clobbering.

Pallies get a cathedral under Lights Hope Chapel.

[Calith-]

No, there's no previous lore for it and there are lots of people who are put off by a golden, holy place full of angels as the Warrior Hall. The only connection between Warriors and Halls of Valor is the common Viking fantasy tropes which only has been a part of Warcraft Warriors as Orcs who want to die in combat, and visually by Dwarves.

Apart from those examples it's disconnected from everything already established about Warriors. The Hall and the Campaign aren't even about Warriors, it's a vessel to tell more Vrykul and Titan lore and it does nothing for the class.

There is a FFA PVP arena in it. Thats warrior as fuck in my mind. Just jump in and start clobbering.

The Arena is a disappointment to me, at Blizzcon it was presented as more like a Brawler's guild with progression, but it's just a cheap deathpit where everyone Bladestorms each other. Like the rest of the FFA Arenas whoever coordinates the most wins because the effective way to play is opposite of the intended way, it's terrible design and if there are rewards or achievements tied to it people will just take turns in getting them.

[Wazooty]

Warrior fantasy in this game was always rather vague. Too vague to have a order hall, really. Warriors always tended to be the leaders of armies. The warriors of note in the game are all just...tough dudes with weapon skills, as far as we can tell. If there was going to be a stronger fantasy I would've gone for a hercules/thor blessed by the titans kind of deal (I suppose mountain kings have this quite strongly)...which is essentially what they've done. So I can't complain about that, but they've completely left out any existing warrior history for this new thing, rather than add this on to it.

[Archimtiros]

There is a FFA PVP arena in it. Thats warrior as fuck in my mind. Just jump in and start clobbering.

It's too small to actually create real PvP, and it's impossible to duel or make combat "rules" due to the FFA nature. Novelty value gets old really fast.

It should also be noted that from a fantasy perspective, almost every martial class hall has some form of NPC arena where NPCs can be seen fighting/training/sparring in preparation for their upcoming battles... except the Warriors, the Vrykul sit around and don't do shit.

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Warrior fantasy in this game was always rather vague. Too vague to have a order hall, really. Warriors always tended to be the leaders of armies. The warriors of note in the game are all just...tough dudes with weapon skills, as far as we can tell. If there was going to be a stronger fantasy I would've gone for a hercules/thor blessed by the titans kind of deal (I suppose mountain kings have this quite strongly)...which is essentially what they've done. So I can't complain about that, but they've completely left out any existing warrior history for this new thing, rather than add this on to it.

I hate this argument; it's overused and completely false. Warriors have had just as much devotion to their own class fantasy as, and probably even more than, most other classes. Just because it isn't outlandish doesn't mean it's not there.

[trm90]

I hate this argument; it's overused and completely false. Warriors have had just as much devotion to their own class fantasy as, and probably even more than, most other classes. Just because it isn't outlandish doesn't mean it's not there.

Lore-wise, Warriors have a good class identity, and a quick skim through the Wowpedia Warrior page shows that a lot of notable NPCs are warriors. But in our video game world it simply doesn't translate as such, and the lack of flashy spells unfortunately makes it harder to identify them. Regardless, I fully agree that having Vrykul as the new face of Warriors was a complete curveball. IMO it was a perfect opportunity for Muradin (who is also very popular in HotS with tons of Warrior abilities) and Saurfang to come in. But, then, Order Halls are also based off the idea of creating a neutral space in Azeroth that transcends race or faction for all classes to commune, and it's difficult to find somewhere that would make sense. Some kind of training ground in the mountains, maybe?

Oh, and also, Chronicle has supplemented the out-of-the-blue Warrior lore somewhat, but I don't think the majority of the playerbase will be reading it.

[Archimtiros]

Lore-wise, Warriors have a good class identity, and a quick skim through the Wowpedia Warrior page shows that a lot of notable NPCs are warriors. But in our video game world it simply doesn't translate as such, and the lack of flashy spells unfortunately makes it harder to identify them. Regardless, I fully agree that having Vrykul as the new face of Warriors was a complete curveball. IMO it was a perfect opportunity for Muradin (who is also very popular in HotS with tons of Warrior abilities) and Saurfang to come in. But, then, Order Halls are also based off the idea of creating a neutral space in Azeroth that transcends race or faction for all classes to commune, and it's difficult to find somewhere that would make sense. Some kind of training ground in the mountains, maybe?

Oh, and also, Chronicle has supplemented the out-of-the-blue Warrior lore somewhat, but I don't think the majority of the playerbase will be reading it.

Well I dispute the idea that flashy spells are needed to identify the class, as well as dispute the notion that Warriors don't have any flashy spells to begin with. While they might not necessarily be mystical, abilities like Heroic Leap, Storm Bolt, Avatar, etc, are very identifiable. The only major complaint against Warrior spells is that they didn't really change much over the years, while casters got new animations with each new ability they gained.

Regardless, they could have done a lot with Warriors in Legion that wasn't tied to Vrykul, and strictly speaking there's nothing wrong with bringing Vrykul into the fold. I'd happily be on board if the theme wasn't entirely and exclusively centered around them. See my thread here.

But, then, Order Halls are also based off the idea of creating a neutral space in Azeroth that transcends race or faction for all classes to commune, and it's difficult to find somewhere that would make sense. Some kind of training ground in the mountains, maybe?

Specifically WRT this, I believe the best option for Warriors and to tie in the Vrykul would have been to make use of an ancient Vrykul fortress. Not a quaint, out of the way garrison such as WoD, but an actual place of War, on the front lines, directly blocking the Legions main assault in the Broken Isles. Think D3 Bastions Keep in WoW, or even the WoD Dark Portal event with a fortress behind it.

This would have allowed the opportunity to tie in Vrykul lore, even characters such as Odyn and his Val'kyr, raising fallen warriors on the battlefield, and would have had plenty of "roleplaying opportunities" by throwing player races and Vrykul side-by-side, smithing weapons, training soldiers, maintaining siege weaponry, and running out the gates to face the onslaught. Tie in the Vrykul by making them important to the battles; they're big, they're strong, like Tauren on steroids, they're both shock troops and able to teach the "young races" of the Alliance/Horde new battle tactics handed down to them throughout the ages. Put an ancient Vrykul forge in the catacombs beneath for tuning the artifact weapon (and by association giving an extra reason to maintain the fortress there in the face of demonic onslaught, since you need that forge), and a map room for the Alliance/Horde/Vrykul leaders to make battle plans, and you hit all the major Warrior themes in one go.

Biggest difference would be in the atmosphere. Valhalla is out of the way; despite being a place for Warriors, there's no sense of urgency or imminent-battle due to the Legion invasion. Every other class hall has its characters doing something. Hunters are sparring and training, Demon Hunters are raising an army, Death Knights are teaching new initiates, Mages are researching spells... but the Vrykul are just hanging out, having a party. Don't get me wrong, the great "mead hall in the sky" is a fun theme, but it has dick all to do with Legion, when everyone is supposed to be preparing for a giant, world-ending invasion. It's a glorified rest stop.

With a fortress on the front lines, the constant fighting introduces a sense of urgency not present in other class halls. While other classes are off researching a "master plan", Warriors are at the forefront, the major line of defense holding the Legion at bay. To me, this more than anything reinforces the concept that Warriors wage War. They make up the bulk of every army and have been the major combatants of every battle fought throughout history, and while they may not be as individually flashy as Mages, they're every bit as important.

That, ladies and gentlemen, is the Warrior theme.

[Deleted]

But, then, Order Halls are also based off the idea of creating a neutral space in Azeroth that transcends race or faction for all classes to commune, and it's difficult to find somewhere that would make sense. Some kind of training ground in the mountains, maybe?

A 'Fortress in the middle of Legion hordes' idea was offered by Archimtiros (and others) in the other Order Hall thread. An abandoned vrykul fortress, lending models from Northrend or, if they really would have reacted to this early, Black Rook Hold which AFAIK was an important strategic point in the first Legion war as well. A place where warriors could ply their trade in the most direct manner, temporarily putting aside racial differences in the face of a more menacing enemy. Heck, mitigating the race/faction tensions that'd be particularly accentuated in the case of warrior lore could be part of the Class Leader's role and challenge.

It doesn't take a particular stretch of the imagination to give warriors a fort, really. Instead they managed to make it really weird and disconnected :|
I can only imagine the design brainstorming going something like...

1. Guyz! Valhalla!
2. Fuck yeah! Valhalla!
3. ???
4. profit...?

"But sir, that makes no actual sense :/"
"Then make it make sense! Valhalla!!1"

[Calith-]

Specifically WRT this, I believe the best option for Warriors and to tie in the Vrykul would have been to make use of an ancient Vrykul fortress. Not a quaint, out of the way garrison such as WoD, but an actual place of War, on the front lines, directly blocking the Legions main assault in the Broken Isles. Think D3 Bastions Keep in WoW, or even the WoD Dark Portal event with a fortress behind it.

To further ground the idea in Legion's story, it could've been Skovold's palace somewhere in Stormheim.

Not everyone would've gone along with Skovold in joining the Legion, those who rebelled against him could realize that they can't fight the Legion without outside help, Warriors answer the call and the intro quest could have been about you and other Warriors helping the Vrykul lay siege to Skovold's palace and claim it as a fortified position to fight the Legion from. It could be as grandiose as Halls of Valor, but have the rugged atmosphere you're describing.

Using a palace would also play off the "Warrior King" trope which is very common in Warcraft.
Varian, Llane, Garrosh, Grom, Cairne, Baine, Magni, Greymane, Kurdran Wildhammer, Danath, Thoradin, Blackhand, Orgrim and many others are all variations of Warrior Kings.

[Murlocbait]

Well yeah, Valhala is kind of in the skies and it is meant for warriors.

/facepalm Read the thread, c'mon.

[Deleted]

Black Rook Hold

Right now, I realised Blizz missed the opportunity for THE GREATEST order hall that there could ever be...

We are warriors! We charge into battle in front lines! We deserve to have a FORTRESS with an army of OUR KIN where WE are leaders not where we are underdogs for some selfish prick titan construct! I want to have Muradin, Trollbane and Saurfang by my side fighting Legion! I can get over the faction prejudice, I would trust them, they are battle hardened! I will have a hard time trusting King Yimron, the vrykul that I killed long ago, in a glorified flying golden sparkling imitation of Valhalla...

inb4 someone say Black Rook Hold is a dungeon, think again.

(clue: Halls of Valor)

[Archimtiros]

What you don't understand?

I believe he was implying that you didn't understand that the major complaint is not with the location, but rather with the focal narrative.

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Right now, I realised Blizz missed the opportunity for THE GREATEST order hall that there could ever be...

We are warriors! We charge into battle in front lines! We deserve to have a FORTRESS with an army of OUR KIN where WE are leaders not where we are underdogs for some selfish prick titan construct! I want to have Muradin, Trollbane and Saurfang by my side fighting Legion! I can get over the faction prejudice, I would trust them, they are battle hardened! I will have a hard time trusting King Yimron, the vrykul that I killed long ago, in a glorified flying golden sparkling imitation of Valhalla...

inb4 someone say Black Rook Hold is a dungeon, think again.

(clue: Halls of Valor)

Scroll up. Not the first time it's been brought up either, sadly.

[Deleted]

I was not speaking about location either. If I read it right (and I read it again) OP is concirned about Lore for Warriors. He asks about Lore for Order Halls. I don't see what is wrong that warriors have (lore wise) theme which is based around "nordic warriors".

This is about Odyn:

Odyn, a titan keeper, forged the Halls of Valor to house the souls of the greatest vrykul warriors. These warriors have been forged into a new army, the valarjar, in order protect Azeroth from all threats. However, cursed by Helya, Odyn and his army are now trapped within these halls.

Odyn is obvious reference to Odin. I didn't see anywhere that Odyn is strictly a warrior but I also haven't seen that he is paladin. He is the 'titan watcher'. Odyn doesn't have to be either of those, because Odin is not only a warrior either.

From wikipedia about Odin.

<i>Odin is the supreme deity and eldest of all the gods in the Nordic pantheon. He is leader of the race of gods belonging to the Aesir. He is called All-father for he is father of all the gods. Odin is also called Val-father because those warriors who honorably die in battle become his adopted sons.</i>

Everything makes sense to me.

Yeah, lots of lore. 1:1 copied from Norse mythology...

[Archimtiros]

I was not speaking about location either. If I read it right (and I read it again) OP is concirned about Lore for Warriors. He asks about Lore for Order Halls. I don't see what is wrong that warriors have (lore wise) theme which is based around "nordic warriors".

Which would be a completely valid concern WRT lore for Warriors, precisely because there is no Warrior lore, there's just Vrykul and Odyn lore. This goes back to the major complaint that it isn't a "Warrior" hall, despite being billed as such, it's a Vrykul one.

The place might as well be a neutral quest hub for all it has to do with Warriors of the player races. Little about it is even Warrior exclusive, given that it's a duplicate of a 5 man dungeon, it's story completely revolves around a leveling zone, and the Valarjar exists as a faction available to all players. Heck, you can't even claim that Watchers are entirely associated with Warriors, given Tyr's obvious connection to Paladins and Freyas with Druids.

[Deleted]

Like everything else in WoW? Isn't that why it is amazing? Arthas lore was nothing new. Go read on Mordred story.

Legend != mythology. And without having read anything about him, I am certain that even if they draw some inspirations from it (there is nothing wrong about that), they at least altered and added their own flavor to it.

[caervek]

There is a certain irony to the fact that the dev team designing the order garrisons apparently weren't around before Cata. Just like Rogues had their mansion we had Fray Island, an entire island for warriors to warrior on, which was infinitely better than this Valhalla ****. Not only has their lack of WoW knowledge caused them to give players second rate class garrisons that they don't like, but they invested god knows how much design time/money into it

[Deleted]

Unlike rogues at least our specs were mostly spared from the "class fantasy" pigeonholing

I was excited for the emphasis on class fantasy when it was announced. At this point I'm not really sure why or what I was expecting. Perhaps some nostalgy from the warrior quests of old, which tbf weren't as overarching and were sometimes specific to one's chosen race/faction.
It feels that yes they've given classes/specs strong canon fantasy now. But because it's so specific, unless it's exactly what I had in mind for my character in the past 10 years, I just end up feeling alienated (e.g. Halls of Valor, Titan-blessed skywarriors). Previously what the class represented was vague enough for everyone to come up with their own supplementary backstory.

I thought of my warrior more as the 'working-class hero' who has to outwit and outmaneuver opponents of often superior size and strength or aided by magic. Who relies on fine-tuned and well kept weapons and armor, good preparation, tactics and trustworthy companions.
Getting to "Valhalla" is a consolidation prize at best. It really just means that my warrior fucked up, died and thereby lost his 'war'. The current warrior intro scenario being an example of just such dim-witted belligerence.

[Calith-]

Unlike rogues at least our specs were mostly spared from the "class fantasy" pigeonholing

I was excited for the emphasis on class fantasy when it was announced. At this point I'm not really sure why or what I was expecting. Perhaps some nostalgy from the warrior quests of old, which tbf weren't as overarching and were sometimes specific to one's chosen race/faction.
It feels that yes they've given classes/specs strong canon fantasy now. But because it's so specific, unless it's exactly what I had in mind for my character in the past 10 years, I just end up feeling alienated (e.g. Halls of Valor, Titan-blessed skywarriors). Previously what the class represented was vague enough for everyone to come up with their own supplementary backstory.

The Hall and Campaign does nothing to turn Warriors as a class into "Titan-blessed Skywarriors", one of the biggest concerns about the Hall and Campaign is that Warriors aren't getting any fantasy whatsoever. It's just Vrykul fantasy. You are the only non-Vrykul there doing quests with and about Vrykuls, sending out Vrykuls on missions. Feeling alienated is not surprising. Nothing relates to Warriors as a class and the place could have been used by any class without changing a thing, like Archimtiros writes, it's like a generic quest hub.

I thought of my warrior more as the 'working-class hero' who has to outwit and outmaneuver opponents of often superior size and strength or aided by magic. Who relies on fine-tuned and well kept weapons and armor, good preparation, tactics and trustworthy companions.
Getting to "Valhalla" is a consolidation prize at best. It really just means that my warrior fucked up, died and thereby lost his 'war'. The current warrior intro scenario being an example of just such dim-witted belligerence.

I don't really see how anyone who's not only aboard with going to Valhalla, but going there with no regard to the circumstances will enjoy the scenario.

You're forced to ignore Trollbane/Saurfang and go on to just fail and nearly die among strangers, it feels really miserable. The whole "Valhalla experience" is diluted by Odyn wanting you alive anyway so nearly dying to go there is just pointless and confusing.

[Deleted]

Well, part of my point was the silver lining. Warriors now effectively didn't get a class hall, just a bonus quest hub, but maybe we dodged the bullet here i.e. Blizzard actually shoehorning the class into Halls of Valor proper - henceforth warriors are all about Odyn. Odyn in your pants, in your mouth and all over your face. In every expansion to come.

Example being combat rogues. You are now a pirate(?!). Welcome!

[Archimtiros]

Well, my point was the silver lining. Warriors now effectively didn't get a class hall, just a bonus quest hub, but maybe we dodged the bullet here i.e. Blizzard actually shoehorning the class into Halls of Valor proper - henceforth warriors are all about Odyn. Odyn in your pants, in your mouth and all over your face. In every expansion to come.

Highly doubtful, especially considering their track record with previous expansions, it's far more likely that this will all be ignored in future expansions, as is the usual. Regardless, I don't consider it to be "dodging a bullet" when the places are explicitly meant to provide better class identity and lore.

Will everyone agree with it? No, of course not, and frankly they don't have to. Special snowflake syndrome is so out of hand in this game it's unreal. Hell, I might not even agree with it, and that's ok too, but telling a cohesive story would still be a large improvement over the complete lack of association we see now.