Arthas,The Lich King vs Lei Shen ,The Thunder King

[Deleted]

No armies? Then Lei Shen wins, the Lich King was mostly about armies. Heck, even in his fights we get val'kirs trying to throw us around, angry spirits in the frostmourne dimension, etc. Sure, Arthas defeated Illidan, but Lei Shen was several times his size and made of rock, so frost attacks wouldn't do much. Furthermore, Lei Shen can summon the lightning while Arthas has a metal helm on his head.

With armies, the Lich King would win most likely but 1v1 Lei Shen takes the cake.

[Deleted]

Frostmourne is not arguably one of the strongest weapons in warcraft. The power difference between it and Gorshalach(http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Gorshalach) is massive.

No contest

One of the strongest, not the strongest. Consider the 5 most powerful weapons in Warcraft universe. Gorshalach is the winner, yeah; but what about the 4 following it? Surely Frostmourne belongs there.

[Candy Cough]

No armies? Then Lei Shen wins, the Lich King was mostly about armies. Heck, even in his fights we get val'kirs trying to throw us around, angry spirits in the frostmourne dimension, etc. Sure, Arthas defeated Illidan, but Lei Shen was several times his size and made of rock, so frost attacks wouldn't do much. Furthermore, Lei Shen can summon the lightning while Arthas has a metal helm on his head.

With armies, the Lich King would win most likely but 1v1 Lei Shen takes the cake.

Again, Stone wins against necromancy, The scourge isnt undefeatable, Lich king even said himself that we had crushed every challenge he laid before us, which one of them IS the scourge.

[Magical Mudcrab]

We don't know if Frostmourne can reap titanic constructs like him.

I would assume so. It was made very obvious in WotLK that the Lich King, and even his minions, were capable of raising the descendants of titan constructs from the dead (ie: the Vrykul, Gnomes, Dwarves, etc.).
I am unsure if those unaffected by the curse of flesh are able to be affected by necromancy in the same way that other forms of life are, but I would assume it would still be devastating as Earth and Decay (Arcane and Necromancy) are opposing forms of magic.

[Florena]

I would assume so. It was made very obvious in WotLK that the Lich King, and even his minions, were capable of rising the Vrykul from the dead (who are the direct descendants of titan constructs afflicted by the curse of flesh), as well as the Gnomes and Dwarves (both of which are also descendants of titan constructs).

Yes but those were vrykul afflicted with the curse of flesh, I don't think we ever saw him do that to an iron vrykul etc.

[Magical Mudcrab]

Again, Stone wins against necromancy, The scourge isnt undefeatable, Lich king even said himself that we had crushed every challenge he laid before us, which one of them IS the scourge.

Except we didn't really.
We know that Arthas was holding the Scourge back from wiping all life from Azeroth. Whether it was that a small remainder of who Arthas was remained, or that he merely wanted to test our strength and force us to betray our people, the full might of the Scourge was never, at any point, levied against us. The reason why there must always be a Lich King is because they act as that focal point which ensures the Scourge doesn't go out of control.

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Yes but those were vrykul afflicted with the curse of flesh, I don't think we ever saw him do that to an iron vrykul etc.

Not all the Mogu were stone constructs, and those were the ones I was referring to. I'll edit my initial statement to clarify.
Whether or not it can affect titan constructs that are still stone is to be seen. However, I would assume that it would still be fairly effective against them (as it is one of the primary schools of magic and it (decay/necromancy) is directly opposed to what I would assume the magic used to craft them is (earth/arcane).

[A Chozo]

Not all the Mogu were stone constructs, and those were the ones I was referring to. I'll edit my initial statement to clarify.
Whether or not it can affect titan constructs that are still stone is to be seen. However, I would assume that it would still be fairly effective against them (as it is one of the primary schools of magic and it (decay/necromancy) is directly opposed to what I would assume the magic used to craft them is (earth/arcane).

Wait, in the Chronicles chart, the position of the forces identify their opositions?

Obviously Light and Shadow are oposed, and displayed a such in the chart, but Necromancy is oposed to Nature there, and Fel is oposed to Arcane. Which would actually be correct, since the Titans were weak against Fel magicks.

Never heard that Arcane beings were weak against necromancies. And even, we don't know if they can be raised as undead. Never saw a undead titanic construct.... but I remember some spectral Mogu spirits, which means that titanic constructs could use necromancy.

Weird.

Anyway: If we don't know if stone Mogus can't be ressed, we don't know who would win in that fight. We can't assume what is strong against what - but we know what can damage those two: 10/25 adventurers with sticks and sorcery.

[Florena]

Kind of curious. If arcane and fel are opposites, is the arcane weakness to fel a one way street or is Fel also weak to arcane?

[Orissan]

Lei Shen in one on one. He had all four of the Celestial power in his reserves, as well as the titan soul. He could probably take on a Awakened Old god and imprison it (albeit probably with his life).

Armies it gets tricky. Arthas has the entire Scourge at his back, and can res anything that falls. Lei Shen has the Mogu (both living and uncursed), the Zandalari as well as the Yaungol / Panda / Grummel slaves. Also, he can endlessly produce the Uncursed Mogu Constructs. The slaves would probably have to be discounted off, as the Panda / Grummel would just be used for supply lines / none combat roles, and Yaungol would be a burden. It would probably be similar to the Mantid vs Mogu, endless tide vs a wall of stone. Though it could go either way as while Lei's army will not last, he may be able to kill off the LK before they all fall. Probably like 25/75 Lei/LK in that situation.

[Qualia]

Kind of curious. If arcane and fel are opposites, is the arcane weakness to fel a one way street or is Fel also weak to arcane?

Arcane isn't confirmed to be weak to Fel, though. The Pantheon aren't beings made of pure arcane energy and they are said to be *uniquely* susceptible to Fel. We don't actually know if that was the Titan's weakness only or Arcane-related things' weakness in general. The demons / fel-fueled beings (Sargeras is one of them) don't seem to be more vulnerable to Arcane than anything else, though.

[Eliseus]

Neither wins. Many of the arguments in here are based off Lei Shens powers actually working against Arthas. The only distinct difference in strength would be size, but it's safe to assume Arthas would not simply just be crushed by Lei Shen unless he willing allowed that. I think it is also true on the other-hand that Arthas couldn't do much, if anything at all to Lei Shen, even with his army. Bunch of undead going to jump around on Lei Shen like freaking monkeys?

[Charge me Doctor]

I vote Arthas. If memory serves, we just walk into Lei Shen's room, with him having all his electro cube stuff for a home field advantage, and just straight up kill him, while Arthas required an NPC going super saiyan and breaking Frostmourne. It all comes down to, I think, could Lei Shen break Frostmourne and my guess is 'probably not.' Take away Lei Shen's homefield advantage too and put them in a neutral fighting place and I think the LK would win personally.

You are talking about Lei Shen who was killed by titans doomsday device 12000 years ago and just got resurrected and you interrupt his precious time to get his power back. So, basically, we fought him and the lowest on his power, while him being worn out by resurrection sickness.

While Arthas got killed by ghosts from Frostmourne.

[Fmr]

I know who wins. The one that Metzen decides to.

[Florena]

You are talking about Lei Shen who was killed by titans doomsday device 12000 years ago and just got resurrected and you interrupt his precious time to get his power back. So, basically, we fought him and the lowest on his power, while him being worn out by resurrection sickness.

While Arthas got killed by ghosts from Frostmourne.

Yeah after brushing up on the lore revealed for Lei Shen (which I think kind of ruins him making him that powerful but the lore is the lore whether I like it or not) I'm leaning towards him, though in LKs defense there were thousand and thousands of souls in there.

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Arcane isn't confirmed to be weak to Fel, though. The Pantheon aren't beings made of pure arcane energy and they are said to be *uniquely* susceptible to Fel. We don't actually know if that was the Titan's weakness only or Arcane-related things' weakness in general. The demons / fel-fueled beings (Sargeras is one of them) don't seem to be more vulnerable to Arcane than anything else, though.

Thanks for clearing that up.

[Rathbourne]

Yeah after brushing up on the lore revealed for Lei Shen (which I think kind of ruins him making him that powerful but the lore is the lore whether I like it or not)

I thought it was awesome that they made him more powerful and fleshed out his story.He went from a mid expac boss to one of the greatest rulers Azeroth has ever seen.Also a total badass.

[Florena]

I thought it was awesome that they made him more powerful and fleshed out his story.He went from a mid expac boss to one of the greatest rulers Azeroth has ever seen.Also a total badass.

He sadly got little to do in game but I found his backstory in MoP to be very interesting, and regret that his actual role post resurrection wasn't more interesting. But making him so powerful that he had to be stopped with a titan super weapon is going overboard for me.

[Rathbourne]

He sadly got little to do in game but I found his backstory in MoP to be very interesting, and regret that his actual role post resurrection wasn't more interesting. But making him so powerful that he had to be stopped with a titan super weapon is going overboard for me.

I'm sorry but thats personal bias IMO.His Old story does not affect us anymore,since he is gone for good,so whats the problem in making him an awesome,superpowered badass.

[Lady Atia]

Easy one - Lei Shen.

- He had the powers of Ra-den and Aman'thul
- He defeated Ra-den without these
- He has three mighty "artifacts" himself - his spear, his axe and his crown - don't forget these
- Even if you allow to summon minions - Lei Shen can summon elementals ...

Also, don't forget we heroes were a bit stronger in MoP than we were back in icecrown :P - the whole "Arthas nuked the whole raid" isn't really something you can use as argument, as his one-shot spell didn't worked on my lvl 90 DK anymore .... :P

[Florena]

I'm sorry but thats personal bias IMO.His Old story does not affect us anymore,since he is gone for good,so whats the problem in making him an awesome,superpowered badass.

I never said it was anything but my opinion. He was already a badass, but the lengths they went to in the chronicle is just overkill to me.

[My User Name]

I believe that no kind of plague, blight, disease or reanimation would work to a stone-skin like Lei-Shen. Strength-wise, Arthas as Lich King's body, is very vulnerable as we saw in Wrathgate. He quickly escapes to Icecrown when plagued. To a gigantic dude like The Thunder King, Lich King would be in a mess. LK also has Frostmourne on his side but again, Lei-Shen is not made of flesh so its effect can't be used on him.