Are nightborne blizzards relief aid to the night elves?

[ravenmoon]

It's even worse that players, on average, don't see them as that big a deal even compared to Tauren. When Taurajo, a trading post, was bombed, people flew into a shitfit that's still brought up regularly today. At the same time as Taurajo being hit, Silverwind Refuge, a trading post/shrine was assaulted by the Horde and the bodies of those killed there, including the non-combat priestesses, are still there being trampled by Goblin NPCs looting the place.

Nobody seems to give a damn about the latter one, though. Often, you'll just be dismissed for bringing it up. Quicker even than talking about the civilian deathcount of South Shore.

I know, WoW players have no concept of night elves as a force to be reckoned with because they've been really trampled over in WoW (I think only those who played WC3 actually think of night elves as dangerous and something more than reculsive exclusive nature loving tree huggers) -- really, Legion though continuing the trend of seeing night elves beaten actually shows them far more competent in their battles even though they still lose a lot (but not the rubbish of cata) and it actually offers the first possible bright hope for them with the potential addition the nightborne night elves into their ranks, along with their ancient city Suramar and their nightwell power source. It would be the only real win NElves have ever gotten in wow if it happens.

Assuming blizzard doesn't obliterate it ofc, it would be kinda nice though, having a nightwell and a sunwell as major power sources for both Elven groups, besides I can't help but think nightborne night elves joining with the rest of the other night elves (highborne and normal) actually makes them feel a lot stronger now having a more strongly visible arcane aspect to their group, something that didn't properly filter in to players when the highborne rejoined the night elves. Although you can blame blizzard for not making the highborne night elves more visibly affecting the group in the art. But that is certainly not the case with the nightborne night elves and Suramar

[UnluckyAmateur]

high elves=blood elves sub race

Other way around.

[Al Gorefiend]

We've done Tribal Horde vs. Monarchical Alliance for 5 expansions now. I'd love to see Undead + Blood Elves vs. Night Elves, Draenei & Worgen for a change. Let the Orcs and Humans rot for a few expansions.

[Beloren]

The Nightborne are closer in their empire to the Blood Elves than they are to the Nelfs. Both are simple mirrors of the decadence and decay each have with the high magister now taking the place of Kael'Thas.

Anyway the relief aid or hail mary for the Nelfs aren't the Nightborne, it's the Demon Hunters. Another part of their society that was shunned and locked away - like the Shendralar - that now seek to return home and WILL be acknowledged for their skill, sacrifice and patriotism.

I think you're confusing this just a tad. The nightborne are showing you a pre-sundering Night elven life. And it is not one of decadence at all like it was towards the end of Azshara's reign. These night elves also rose up and fought, you are interpreting the dependence on the night well like the high elf situation, not factoring that their issue is not addiction but survival, they needed to feed on the nightwell to prevent dying from starvation it doesn't mean they got over-indulgent like the high elves did,.

Furthermore you're missing that the behaviour of night elves who don't have a ban on arcane magic. The reason your normal night elf has not been rebuilding cities or displaying wonders is because they took a solemn charge of vigil in an attempt to prevent the Legion from the world and protect it, this meant to them no arcane magic usage (even though they still basked in it ALL the time - or did you not know what moonwells are?) it also meant no rebuilding, no claiming of lands or building a civilization, none of that, constantly on the move protecting.

you forget when you meet the highborne night elves - they have been living like the nightborne night elves too - this also appears more similar to blood elves, not because they are blood elves, but because their circumstances are different, neither of these night elven groups (the highborne or nigihtborne) stopped using arcane magic - blizzard is showing you another side to night elves that is a core part of their lore, but was not visible in WoW since most of that part of their lives was in total ruin - until Eldre'thalas (Dire Maul) and then Suramar are shown.

You're not to think of them as blood elves, but as night elves because that's what they are you're to see a side of the night elves that has been put on hold to fulfill a task. This is not dissimilar to the high elves at all, They are elves, not a separate race.
The difference with high elves and blood elves is their brighter look and their cultural diversification from the night elven group.

they dropped the night stuff.. this is why you have Highborne night elves and highborne high elves - one group is not changing their identity, the other does.

So you look at the high elves/blood elves, brighter colours, brighter architecture, day themes, sun themes - you are to contrast this with the night elves which are the original but a contrasting theme, night instead of day, nocturnal, moon instead of sun, the architecture is similar ofc, they're elves - when the normal night elves made an attempt at building a city, you can see similarities to it in Blood elven architecture, in fact when the high elves go all rural, they use night elven rural architecture, when you saw silvermoon city it had some semblance to the night elven architecture you saw in darnassus which was just a smaller temple model.

When you see Suramar, you get an idea of the full extent of what the night elves did before. this is the point, so you can see. You are meant to see how the highborne high elves evolved from night elves, so Suramar would have similarities to the high elves, but it's night elven, in a similar way, the normal night elf group have just started their first permanent habitation in Darnassus, for 10k years, you can see a much simpler version of what you see in Surmar, they are starting up again.

You never got to see their ancient civilization in justice when you look at the ruins of Dire Maul or Vashj'ir , when you look at the picture of Zin'Azshari and you look at Suramar - you see a vast empire with really distinct yet similar architectural styles, and yet you see that all over Kalimdor and reflected in the normal night elven stuff.

[ravenmoon]

Anyway the relief aid or hail mary for the Nelfs aren't the Nightborne, it's the Demon Hunters. Another part of their society that was shunned and locked away - like the Shendralar - that now seek to return home and WILL be acknowledged for their skill, sacrifice and patriotism.

the nightborne nelves are exactly like the highborne nelves - locked away and "would have been despised" prior to the 3rd war if they had known about them - but now will be welcomed with open arms post cataclysm as the night elves are drowning. The Dire Maul Highborne Night elves' magical contribution was not enough, the uncorrupted shen'drelar are far too few, the time to have enough normal nelves master their heritage too short - and fast forward to current, we see night elves in legion aren't strong or numerous enough to even send a team with the other alliance races.. and throughout the course of legion are further decimated, Wardens, Moonguard Dreamers are on the point of extinction, nightborne nelves are their only salvation at this point - and even that is not guaranteed we're going to be taking out a large number of nightborne who've sided witht he legion even though we're helping a nightborne night elven resistance do it.

You got to admit though, it would be a very fitting solution give night elves the boost they need, gain a large enough arcane magical contingent, and extra city and a power source .. given the state their in currently it still doesn't make them quite as strong as other racial groups like orcs, pandaren, humans, dwarves, forsaken or draenei but it gives them both a hope and fighting chance to now rebuild and not die out.

[Mace]

We've done Tribal Horde vs. Monarchical Alliance for 5 expansions now. I'd love to see Undead + Blood Elves vs. Night Elves, Draenei & Worgen for a change. Let the Orcs and Humans rot for a few expansions.

I would like that too. .. the problem is the horde and alliance are a human and orc thing. This is why I feel that blizzard should shake the lore up a bit, with Suramar the ancient night elven city, the l ancient Elven enemy the Legion returning , they have a golden opportunity to create a strong Elven identity not tied or part of the horde and alliance. A night elf led Elven initiative uniting all elves ffor a higher purpose of doing a better job at fighting threats like the legion and also rebuilding what they lost becuase of the legion.

you can still have elves helping out in the alliance, and in the horde, but in the lore their group will have a complete change of direction, - strengthened by recent events..

Failing that then just let humans and orcs take a backseat for a while.

[Rhlor]

We've done Tribal Horde vs. Monarchical Alliance for 5 expansions now. I'd love to see Undead + Blood Elves vs. Night Elves, Draenei & Worgen for a change. Let the Orcs and Humans rot for a few expansions.

Lor'themar does not like Sylvanas. the blood elves and draenei are friends

[Deleted]

Lor'themar does not like Sylvanas. the blood elves and draenei are friends

Perfect ground for internal conflicts.

Just anything but Urkz vs Hüminz.

[Mace]

Lor'themar does not like Sylvanas. the blood elves and draenei are friends

so much room for more nuance in the story and inter race relations, the all horde love each other and all hate alliance (and vice versa too) is as boring as it is dumbing down of something far more intriguing and engaging.

But if they want to write it that way.. sure..go for it, just exapect less people older than 15 being interested in warcraft.

[deviantcultist]

Alliance players have to stop wanting to play with a playable race of the horde.

The alliance already has playable elves.

nightborne has night elf skeleton is logical that are subRace of Night elves

I am fully with you. Nightborn for Night Elves is my expectation.

[Rhlor]

so much room for more nuance in the story and inter race relations, the all horde love each other and all hate alliance (and vice versa too) is as boring as it is dumbing down of something far more intriguing and engaging.

But if they want to write it that way.. sure..go for it, just exapect less people older than 15 being interested in warcraft.

Lor'themar Theron says: Sylvanas, you will leave our corpses alone, or I will deal with you here and now.

Lor'themar Theron says: ... well, I suppose that's between you and the Alliance, isn't it?

in the end of siege
lorthemar: I find politics exhausting. I am confident Vol'jin will take us where we need to go.
<Lor'themar glances over Sylvanas.>
Assuming he can hold this Horde together.

War Crimes

Sylvanas try talking to Lor'themar and he ignores her

[Mace]

Lor'themar Theron says: Sylvanas, you will leave our corpses alone, or I will deal with you here and now.

Lor'themar Theron says: ... well, I suppose that's between you and the Alliance, isn't it?

in the end of siege
lorthemar: I find politics exhausting. I am confident Vol'jin will take us where we need to go.
<Lor'themar glances over Sylvanas.>
Assuming he can hold this Horde together.

War Crimes

Sylvanas try talking to Lor'themar and he ignores her

i was agreeing with you.

when they do things like that it's much more interesting. than their usual all allliance love each other and alll hate all the horde ...like they're a nation rather than an alliance of very different peoples.

[Onvious]

Lor'themar Theron says: Sylvanas, you will leave our corpses alone, or I will deal with you here and now.

Lor'themar Theron says: ... well, I suppose that's between you and the Alliance, isn't it?

in the end of siege
lorthemar: I find politics exhausting. I am confident Vol'jin will take us where we need to go.
<Lor'themar glances over Sylvanas.>
Assuming he can hold this Horde together.

War Crimes

Sylvanas try talking to Lor'themar and he ignores her

well to me, they were just flirting with while speaking IMO.

[Al Gorefiend]

Alliance players have to stop wanting to play with a playable race of the horde.

The alliance already has playable elves.

nightborne has night elf skeleton is logical that are subRace of Night elves

It's because they are the sexiest race. RPG players as a whole are unique in the gaming community in that they value sex appeal more than practicality or lore. Blizzard can add a sexy succubus derp race contrived with the worst possible lore and least amount of available classes and it'd be the most played race in the game.

Not that I really care what people choose to play in single players and what-not, but the male YouTubers who do Skyrim plays or Dragon Age plays and they have their character some skimpy little sex bot gives me the largest of all possible cringes. Have you no shame, fuckboy?

[Rhlor]

I do not think so, blizzard could give the alliance a super beautiful race not be happy. because they want to play Tolkien fantasy with Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli
the alliance never will have this

[Shelly]

I think you're confusing this just a tad. The nightborne are showing you a pre-sundering Night elven life. And it is not one of decadence at all like it was towards the end of Azshara's reign. These night elves also rose up and fought, you are interpreting the dependence on the night well like the high elf situation, not factoring that their issue is not addiction but survival, they needed to feed on the nightwell to prevent dying from starvation it doesn't mean they got over-indulgent like the high elves did,.

Have you actually looked at some of the questing that you do? Have you looked at the start of the Suramar dungeon where you go in on a boat, do you know how that parallels Michael Moorcock's Elric novels?

The Nightborne are decadent, lost, xenophobic and almost completely corrupt.

A closer common analogy would be the Drow - which is another huge influence on the Nightborne.

Also these Nightborne are unchanged Highborne, their entire civilization is a copy of the reign of Azshara and is meant to be. They just found a better power-source than the Shen'dralar.

Even if they stood up and fought prior to the sundering they aren't now. The only relic of that fight left isles are Black Rook Hold, filled with the ghosts of the past and the sadness of so many lost lives, and the Vault of the Wardens where it's nothing but the jailers and the jailed and frankly it's hard to tell which is which given the eternal vigil of the wardens.

As they stand now they are as lost as the Sin'Dorei were under the final rule of Kael'Thas. Ruled by a high magister, spending their days and nights in indulgence and party, unable to see how far they have fallen.

Furthermore you're missing that the behaviour of night elves who don't have a ban on arcane magic. The reason your normal night elf has not been rebuilding cities or displaying wonders is because they took a solemn charge of vigil in an attempt to prevent the Legion from the world and protect it, this meant to them no arcane magic usage (even though they still basked in it ALL the time - or did you not know what moonwells are?) it also meant no rebuilding, no claiming of lands or building a civilization, none of that, constantly on the move protecting.

No. The reason our normal Night Elves haven't been rebuilding things is because there was a schism in the Azsharan civilization which split the populace into several castes. The high elf caste and a forest elf caste. The high elf caste were all swallowed and became naga, were banished to the eastern kingdoms where they attempted to recreate their society or left in exile to the recesses of Dire Maul to try and maintain their society.

Meanwhile the forest elf caste renamed themselves the Kal'dorei and rebuilt their civilization based on their lifestyle under the rule of Azshara. There are a lot of changes to it now in game over what it was in WC3 but basically the men all sought the druidic arts and went and took a nap, the women then either joined the wardens or the priesthood of Elune which in itself was a martial order. They had several cities though it's hard to tell whether or not they were truly nomadic, but their civilization was based around mount hyjal with barrow dens for the druids and aesthetic martial camps for the priestesses encircling it.

There was no desire to rebuild the old civilization because they had not only forsaken and outlawed it but never truly been a part of it to begin with.

you forget when you meet the highborne night elves - they have been living like the nightborne night elves too - this also appears more similar to blood elves, not because they are blood elves, but because their circumstances are different, neither of these night elven groups (the highborne or nigihtborne) stopped using arcane magic - blizzard is showing you another side to night elves that is a core part of their lore, but was not visible in WoW since most of that part of their lives was in total ruin - until Eldre'thalas (Dire Maul) and then Suramar are shown.

I'm not forgetting it, I'm saying that the nature of elves in Warcraft is such that without a specific goal they tend towards decadence and decay. They grow bored with eternal life but at the same time can't bring themselves to think of parting with it. Simply put they are trust-fund babies. They despise the ease of their lives but can't imagine a way to live outside it and defend their addiction fiercely.

You're not to think of them as blood elves, but as night elves because that's what they are you're to see a side of the night elves that has been put on hold to fulfill a task. This is not dissimilar to the high elves at all, They are elves, not a separate race.
The difference with high elves and blood elves is their brighter look and their cultural diversification from the night elven group.

they dropped the night stuff.. this is why you have Highborne night elves and highborne high elves - one group is not changing their identity, the other does.

So you look at the high elves/blood elves, brighter colours, brighter architecture, day themes, sun themes - you are to contrast this with the night elves which are the original but a contrasting theme, night instead of day, nocturnal, moon instead of sun, the architecture is similar ofc, they're elves - when the normal night elves made an attempt at building a city, you can see similarities to it in Blood elven architecture, in fact when the high elves go all rural, they use night elven rural architecture, when you saw silvermoon city it had some semblance to the night elven architecture you saw in darnassus which was just a smaller temple model.

Yes, they are elves, but the root of their culture is far different than that of the Kal'Dorei.

My entire point is that they are incredibly similar to the high-elves/Sin'Dorei, why? Because they are mirrors of each other, two faces of the same coin. As such they hold the same value and have the same rot.

The Kal'Dorei are entirely different, they've gone a completely opposing way to any of the civilizations that sprang from highborne roots. As such the Kal'Dorei civilization as we know it in game is fundamentally incompatible with that of the highborne ones.

Yes they have made some exceptions in taking in the refugees of Highmaul, but don't forget these refugees are treated like second-class citizens and are basically the equivalent of Iraqis moving to America after Sadaam was overthrown. They are useful but it's a long row to hoe before they'll really be trusted.

When you see Suramar, you get an idea of the full extent of what the night elves did before. this is the point, so you can see. You are meant to see how the highborne high elves evolved from night elves, so Suramar would have similarities to the high elves, but it's night elven, in a similar way, the normal night elf group have just started their first permanent habitation in Darnassus, for 10k years, you can see a much simpler version of what you see in Surmar, they are starting up again.

You never got to see their ancient civilization in justice when you look at the ruins of Dire Maul or Vashj'ir , when you look at the picture of Zin'Azshari and you look at Suramar - you see a vast empire with really distinct yet similar architectural styles, and yet you see that all over Kalimdor and reflected in the normal night elven stuff.

I never said you didn't, what I did say though was that the Nightborne are neutral as a faction and must remain so. Partially for gameplay reasons but also for very specific lore reasons.

They aren't a hail-mary group of fresh blood to come rejuvenate the Night Elves, far from it. Their civilization and comportment is far closer to the Sin'Dorei with whom they share a closer societal bond and root. Much the same as anyone from Los Angeles shares more in common with someone else from LA than they do someone from Siskiyou County in true Northern California.

It's a pretty basic fact in game that the Kal'Dorei were already a far different group than the Highborne, as such the architecture we see everywhere in Kalimdore and hiding in some places in the Eastern Kingdoms is night Night Elf architecture, but Highborne ruins. This is also played out quite often in quests involving those ruins, such as the one to explore the ruins in Winterspring.

Also what I said was that because the Nightborne are such an entirely different society than that of the Kal'Dorei they are incompatible and the thing to return strength to the Night Elves is the return of the prodigal children - the Demon Hunters. Citizens who were already a part of Night Elf society, but because of their own pain and loss sacrificed their own homes to gain the power to strike at the Legion. Now they are coming home and a place is demanded for them.

- - - Updated - - -

the nightborne nelves are exactly like the highborne nelves - locked away and "would have been despised" prior to the 3rd war if they had known about them - but now will be welcomed with open arms post cataclysm as the night elves are drowning. The Dire Maul Highborne Night elves' magical contribution was not enough, the uncorrupted shen'drelar are far too few, the time to have enough normal nelves master their heritage too short - and fast forward to current, we see night elves in legion aren't strong or numerous enough to even send a team with the other alliance races.. and throughout the course of legion are further decimated, Wardens, Moonguard Dreamers are on the point of extinction, nightborne nelves are their only salvation at this point - and even that is not guaranteed we're going to be taking out a large number of nightborne who've sided witht he legion even though we're helping a nightborne night elven resistance do it.

You got to admit though, it would be a very fitting solution give night elves the boost they need, gain a large enough arcane magical contingent, and extra city and a power source .. given the state their in currently it still doesn't make them quite as strong as other racial groups like orcs, pandaren, humans, dwarves, forsaken or draenei but it gives them both a hope and fighting chance to now rebuild and not die out.

No. Actually I don't admit that. I heartily disagree.

If their racial power needed to be defined in such a way it would actually be a tragic loss as it would be the Night Elves suborning their race and freedom to the Nightborne. Basically a return to the time of Azshara, when the Night Elves were simply the forest and field elves, the ones closer to nature that fed the decadent culture of the cities.

As it stands we don't really think in terms of racial power in terms of populace either. You can say how much the Night Elves have lost but they are still numerically superior to the Draenei which are just a small group stuck on Azeroth. They are also quite likely superior in numbers to the Blood Elves which have just gone through two civil wars, lost a lot of highly-educated relic hunters to Garrosh's hunt for power in Pandaria and lost a large number of farstriders and magisters in their attempt to conquer and unlock the secrets of the Island of Thunder - an offensive that for the Alliance was spearheaded by a "neutral" group of Kirin'Tor.

They also probably have more populace than Tauren which are fast catching up but are still a group that was so small that in-game they were being bullied by simple Centaurs and needed saving by the larger Orcish Horde. They might have about as many members living as the Gnomes which easily lost the majority of their population to the fall of Gnomerangan.

They might also have as many members as the Wildhammer dwarves, a clan that truly still hasn't recovered from the loss of Grim Batol to the Dark Iron curse.

In terms of power though they definitely outclass the Wildhammer and even with their losses the Kal'Dorei still maintain outposts throughout Kalimdor and have a single large city that rivals the other capitals and is still large enough to accept Gilnean refugees.

So yeah. The Night Elves are taking a really big hit in Legion and also took another one in Cataclysm while already on semi-shaky ground where it's basically their martial skills being the only thing holding the orcs and their super numbers back in Ashenvale, but despite all that the civilization still stands strong and is about to get a heavy rejuvenation through the return of the demon hunters and surviving wardens whose vigil is now lost.

[ravenmoon]

snip.

Not snipping to be rude dear, I may come back to a detailed reponse late, but to summarize

I've learnt never to force another fantasy universes fantasy on blizzards races. Their origin may be drawn from older classic and popular cult fiction sagas, but they transition into their own thing in wow, and whiles some similarities are there, the story and personalities and alignemnts are very different, you'll be making huge mistake to peg their races exactly like: Tolkein races, D&D races, Twilight races, Elric races etc, they are not. they are there own thing even though they may have originally been based off of them. Zombies aren't mindless, Orcs aren't stupid, Dark elves aren't evil, High elves aren't perfect, werewolves aren't dark underworld, dwarves aren't all about mining, goblins can be good etc etc

They take those classic archetypes and they give them so much depth, within each of those classic groups, you get multiple sub groups with a huge variety. Look at Dwarves - you have nature dwarves, sorcerous dwarves and holy light dwarves. Nightborne aren't decadent like you're viewing them, I would follow what the narrative is saying and showing to really understand these night elves properly. Rather than force a blood elf or Azshara reckless highborne repeat model or a classic fantasy model on them. Player race Elves even when more on the dark side are generally portrayed as good, they may have portions of their group misbehaving which you have to take out, but never the whole group and the good guys of the group win. So it was for blood elves when they became a group so it was for dark irons, and nightborne are clearly been shown as certainly not decadent and not all evil by a long shot.

[Phram]

taking in the refugees of Highmaul

Not trying to be an ass, but this is funny . Ogre district in Darnassus confirmed.

Edit: I think you meant Dire Maul

[Deleted]

high elves=blood elves sub race

Never gonna happen, they'd completely self-destruct before ever joining Horde.

[ravenmoon]

Have you actually looked at some of the questing that you do? Have you looked at the start of the Suramar dungeon where you go in on a boat, do you know how that parallels Michael Moorcock's Elric novels?

The Nightborne are decadent, lost, xenophobic and almost completely corrupt.

A closer common analogy would be the Drow - which is another huge influence on the Nightborne.

Also these Nightborne are unchanged Highborne, their entire civilization is a copy of the reign of Azshara and is meant to be. They just found a better power-source than the Shen'dralar.

Even if they stood up and fought prior to the sundering they aren't now. The only relic of that fight left isles are Black Rook Hold, filled with the ghosts of the past and the sadness of so many lost lives, and the Vault of the Wardens where it's nothing but the jailers and the jailed and frankly it's hard to tell which is which given the eternal vigil of the wardens.

As they stand now they are as lost as the Sin'Dorei were under the final rule of Kael'Thas. Ruled by a high magister, spending their days and nights in indulgence and party, unable to see how far they have fallen.

I think some of what you are saying is right, but some of it is also wrong. it is not exactly the same like Azshara's time, nor is it like the Sin'dorei's dark period either. But there are similarities that will give you a good idea what things may have looked like in the WotA trilogy on smaller scale but they are not the same.

1. The nightborne aren't decadent and corrupt nor are they drow like - but some have become corrupt, you gatecrash a party of the nobles in The Court of Stars, it is clear the Legion is still working on the populace or they wouldn't need to disguise themselves in such a setting. The nightborne, even the traitors are unwilling participants. The exception are the very rare ones who have embraced it - like you get in every race.

You are working for a nightborne rebellion that is acting to stir the people up and remind them they can be brave and fight this. That is not the rhetoric of a totally corrupt race. You see the lament of a nightfallen who describes that his people have become too soft, and have forgotten who they are, and another who sets you to the task of reminding them because not all are swayed.

If a nightborne are the ones sending you on these quests, is that telling you they are all corrupt?

2. History: Their history is one of a highborne led city who fought the Legion and rebelled against Azshara in the War of the Ancients. Is that corrupt? No. They didn't go on abusing arcane magic or anything of the sort either. Nothing in the narrative shows or tells you that.

The nightborne's corruption is not one of the soul, but one of the body due to the nightwell becoming corrupt - not through overuse or reckless indulgence either, it's corrupt in the sense like it's flawed not in the Fel or shadow magic sense of evil and foul. They had to feed off the energies to survive in a period where they would have starved. This is not over-indulgence, they must drink arcwine from the nightwell like they must eat food, without they will starve and die, with a new effect of becoming withered. This is how the corruption shows. Same words is confusing, but it's not corrupted minded or spirited. When having their food, they remain normal like everyone else, some can be nice, some nasty, some good, some not so good. Failure to eat your food will cause you to become mindless in about 50 days pretty much like you would starve to death if you don't have any food for 50 days. A Quest even catalogues the typical transition period from nightfallen to withered, marks it at in excess of 49 days.

This is not the Sin'dorei problem nor is it the issue that Azshara's highborne had which were corrupted souls. Think of the Broken, corrupted bodies and minds also warped by Fel Energies, but the Broken aren't evil, yet their bodies are corrupted. Well the nightborne aren't evil or addicted, there bodies aren't even corrupted, but their bodies need the nightwell for sustenance and they have found out because of the corruption of the source, their bodies will become corrupt if they don't feed on it and then they'll lose their minds stay withered for a while and die.

No. The reason our normal Night Elves haven't been rebuilding things is because there was a schism in the Azsharan civilization which split the populace into several castes. The high elf caste and a forest elf caste. The high elf caste were all swallowed and became naga, were banished to the eastern kingdoms where they attempted to recreate their society or left in exile to the recesses of Dire Maul to try and maintain their society.

Again, you're type setting into forest elves and high elves - this is not D&D, nor is it Elderscrolls, nor is it Tolkein. That isn't the picture the narrative paints.

There was no schism first then castes, castes happened, nobles, non-nobles. The nobles weren't all spell casters, neither were the non-nobles all non-spell casters. Night elf society had little children learning how to cast spells like learning how to read and write by the time of the sundering, they all used, some were talented at it, somewhere not. Some of the most talented were raised, sort of like a knighthood to nobility, by Azshara has her special group, being a magic centred society highborne often ruled in leadership positions, there were nobles who weren't highborne, - you could view it as a power play.

Magic usage became increasingly reckless towards the end, to an obscene and obsessive level, many of the populace had noticed the acceleration in casting, and were worried about it, just like you're worried about the rise in violence, terrorism, immigration, but are doing nothing about it. Malfurion warned about it, but not him, research from several highborne academies like Menaar and others had noticed this, and warned Zin'Azshari, zin'azshari didn't listen. In fact, you find out that in the War of the Ancients, it was the Zin'Azshari highborne only in the palace with Azshara that had gone out of control

It was not all highborne and not all spell users either, the situation was blamed on the highborne with them in WotA, Darth'Remar's group were Zin'Azshari highborne that had been working with the queen, they were the only ones of those highborne there that came out unscathed because they teamed up with Tyrande, they had been working in secret against the queen sabotaging the portal attempts to summon Sargeras, a group of them. And they fled when they reahced teh extent that they could go. Namely as Xavius and others were forcibly turning elves into Satyr, even against their will.

There is no forest elf caste. The survivors, decided they would not use arcane magic for a very specific reason, it's use they thought was what brought the legion. These were the magical usage pioneers of Azeroth, until they reached their heights, they didn't know usage tore holes into the twisting nether that demons were drawn too. They also did not know demons were after Azeroth the titan soul, they thought demons were after the Well of Eternity source. Therefore it was logical that no well = no demons. Illidan said that was not the case. They had only his word that he hadn't truly betrayed them when he switched sides to the Legion, only his word that he was a double agent (who did what he did because he firmly believed the only way to fight them was with their own fire, so he had to learn and he had successfully duped Sargeras), when Illidan lost control atop mount hyjal after forming the well (another thing they had no idea of what internal struggles one has to fight to keep your soul when touched with Fel, most embrace it, Illidan and every DHs struggle is holding on to yourself in an internal war, and you mastering the demon and it's power not the power mastering you) he loses control, kills some soldiers and they conclude he was lying about being a double agent, that he recreated the well on behalf of the Legion to summon them back and the evidence of this was the dead soldiers. So they locked him up, and labelled him Betrayer.

This is why they stopped using arcane magic, at that time, they didn't know they could adjust for the tears in the nether, mask the energy signature so it won't attract or be noticed by twisting nether beings, but Darth'remar theorized it should be possible. Also the reckless use of arcane, now in hindsigiht they know that you can't just use continuously you have to keep yourself in balance, exercise, not just gloat up, it's a matter of discipline. But they wouldn't trust a highborne who was clearly in withdrawal, he could be just saying that to get his fix.. and it was theoretical, the Legion was too big a risk, a return would spell certain doom with no night elf army left and the world in pieces. They felt it was too much of a risk, Malfurion and Cenarius mainly and so decided to ban the use.. something that only changed when they came out of isolation to a second legion attack, and have now interacted with other races for the first time in 10k years, learnt that the Legion was coming back anyway, the legion is after more than the well of eternity too, and tears in the twisting nether can be masked, easily too. The Arcane is not corrupt in and of itself ofc, and many can use it sucessfully and beneficial for millennia without going crazy or reckless, humans, high elves, draenei, and shen'drelar highborne were all examples of this.

You see a group of elves, that are not a forest caste, they've lived in the forest, but there was no such caste. They were druid guided but that was not the only thing to them.

Meanwhile the forest elf caste renamed themselves the Kal'dorei and rebuilt their civilization based on their lifestyle under the rule of Azshara.

They were always Kal'dorei, there was never any such "forest caste" they rebuilt no civilization during the Long Vigil. That was the point, they abandoned their own personal lives to Guard over the world, they did not live for family life, crops, trade, growth and expansion, cities and stuff, they left all of that behind for a specific dedicated reason. Guard and watch over Azeroth, watch for demonic threat, watch magical usage from inexperienced races so they don't do the same thing. Prevent anyone from accessing this great Well of Eternity source, Nordrassil was grwon specfically to mask the energy signature of the Well from the Twisting Nether, a non-arcane way of doing so, if Malygos hadn't been withdrawn he'd likely have used an arcane method instead. but the tree did the job.

Night leves rebuilt no ruins, in fact the only permanent abode was a small collection of structures in Moonglade, and this is where the female sex in charge of race affairs ran things. Most males were druids living in the wild and barrow dens, not houses, and most night elven groups were patrol groups constantly moving, always been vigilant, working with the dragon flights.

After the revelations of WC3 intro, WC3, WotA, Dire Maul, Menaar and Suramar - it is quite clear not all night elves are DRUIDS, night elves are not bound and locked into following nature, some have remained arcane as you know and free from addiction or corruption, some haven't, some are carazy, some are not, some have a corruption but are not addicted or evill, but some are.

They had several cities though it's hard to tell whether or not they were truly nomadic,

They were never nomadic, EVER. and they had no cities after the sundering, they never rebuilt. They were fulfilling aset task they carried out with 100% diligence, for 10k years.

There was no desire to rebuild the old civilization because they had not only forsaken and outlawed it but never truly been a part of it to begin with.

I can see how you think so now, if you thought they were a separate caste of forest and non forest... they weren't. This are high civilization people who've lost everything and refused to use their power to rebuild because they thought using that power would bring back the alien invaders, and this time they'd be too weak and shattered to stop them.

I'm not forgetting it, I'm saying that the nature of elves in Warcraft is such that without a specific goal they tend towards decadence and decay. They grow bored with eternal life but at the same time can't bring themselves to think of parting with it. Simply put they are trust-fund babies. They despise the ease of their lives but can't imagine a way to live outside it and defend their addiction fiercely.

And this is where I disagree, that opinion has no merit. Every evil act has an explanation. The decadent behaviour of Azshara is explained through over-indulgence not boredom. that woman was ambitious and set on making the world the most beautiful place ever, , kept using arcane so much and so over confident that she was a master of it and would not be able to affect her negatively, she didn't heed the warnings of her people and when she met Sargeras, she was willing to use the Legion to raise the world, wipe the slate clean and build afresh with no weakness, no lesser primitve races. It was not boredom. Same with Fandral Staghelm when he goes off. He is maddened by his sons death and a seed of madness is planted by the old gods, that grows. When the time is right, he is manipulated by Xavius and the old gods of the nightmare into being a pawn, then full joins them with a group of his kin. Same with Prince Totheldrin - not boredom, using a demon as a power source seemed a brilliant solution now cut off from a well that had imploded and secreted in City. Eldre'thalas wasn't destroyed, it's peopleprotected their city too, unknown to the main night elf group, these didn't have to give up civilization, and while they were no legion lovers, they were the most elite group of arcanists - having handled the queen's special projects in secret. They were clever enough to draw demon of the right size from the nether, prevent any further intrusions.. what was theory to Darth'remar was practical to them. Used the demon to siphon energy, and it worked. they weren't corrupted by fel magic, because they weren't using it , were clever enough not to too. they didn't want to be corrupt, and they werne'et stupid either to obscenely use arcane magic to cause themselves to go out of balance.

It all goes pear shaped when over a few millennia the demon starts drawing more power than he is given, trapped now in a no win situation, not enough power to summon another demon, not willing to kill this one lest the only source be lost, instead the Prince does a selfish and mad thing, to maintain the power flow, starts killing his kin rather than live without the comforts and kill the demon, he holds so much power, a group of good highborne, unable to stop him look for a way out. The turning point is when they scry out Azshara's activities and Deathwing's plan, it becomes clear that Eldre'thalas in this ruined state with a mad prince, would not survive another cataclysm type event. They're not getting help form the prince, so they decide they'll reach out to their kin press the night elves into dropping their silly arcane/highborne ban, seeing they are not like Azshara's highborne nor were they complicit in those crimes 10k years ago, but furthermore the Elves need to come together or the new disaster would wipe them all out. They also hope to get help to return to Dire Maul, eradicate the demon and the prince, and restore it.

Finally Suramar. Another group of night elves who over time have mutated a little to nightborne, their well becomes corrupt - not out of indulgence, decadence or over use, these ones fought the demons in the sundering, and rpotected their city, lived responsibly, but their city starved, and so they ingeniously adapted their magical source to be abele to feed off it. They thought the outside world was in ruins and covered with demons and there's was the only society left. Aside from that one problem, they fluorished, they got rid of evil doers, abusers by expelling them... they advanced their society and continued with no interruption no forseeable tragedy - probably had no idea the source had become corrupt, because you don't notice the corruption until you've been without arcwine, something no one in the city was, only those expelled for crimes. This is the case until the legion arrives, and whatever he does to re-open the portal, whatever kil'jaeden gave him it seems also unamsks the city, and he gives the nightborne an ultimatum, their leader uses her magic to search all possible futures, and doens't see anyone which the nightborne and the nightwell survive except with the Legion, so she surrenders her people. And this is where she errs.

Not everyone agrees with her, the second most powerful ruler, the First Arcanist Thalyssra, opposes this strongly and with support, but when she and a few top rankings are thrown out to suffer the fate of withered after a failed coup'de tar, Ellisandre regains control over the city through fear. The citizens are shown not to like it at all, they are been starved of nightwell nourishment, within the city. they are been enslaved and used for soul shard harvesting and empowering. but too afraid of being cast out. They've had it good for a long time - it's not decadence, as the nightborne you work with tells you, they've forgotten who they are, that they are strong, and you must help the resistance remind them, help them and give them hope.

You see some evil nightborne and some decadent ones too, but you get the impression that roughly (and this is my esitmate) about 2/3hate the legion and will join the resistance when the final push comes.

Yes, they are elves, but the root of their culture is far different than that of the Kal'Dorei.

There root culture is Kal'dorei through and through. THis is the culture of the Elves before the sundering minus there nature affinity. The main night elf group are still pre-sundering minded minus the arcane usage, which was a huge part. They were always until near the sundering both nature and arcane -the main night elf group sacrifice arcane usage. but they are constantly surrounded by the arcane. The moonwells are all arcane waters, the well of eternitiy they protected for 10k years atop hyjal, is an arcane font. To be particular, they were suffused with the power, and kept the waters clean, just didn't use them to do sorcery, but we know they used arcane spells, both druids and priests use arcane spells, however not via the well as a source.. ask yourself why they don't seem that bothered meeting human, high elf, blood elf mages in WC3...? It's because those ones arnt using large scale magic like night elven pre-sundering use to use, not using magic via the Well of Eternity. You see they thought it was the Well the demons were after, and it was the usage of the Well itself that caused the tears in the twisting nether. and because they lived in isolation for 10k years, they never learnt it was a little bit more to it than that.

My entire point is that they are incredibly similar to the high-elves/Sin'Dorei, why? Because they are mirrors of each other, two faces of the same coin. As such they hold the same value and have the same rot.

they are exactly night elven pre-sundering society without the Azshara craziness, that's what you're supposed to be seeing, This is what blizzard wants you to see, what the original Kal'dorei society was in its glory, what would it be like if that society continued on (obviously minus the Azshara craziness). It appears like blood elf society in some ways because their society comes from this. They changed it though, when they got exiled, they started from scratch again, switched from night to day, abandoned moon Elune worship for the Light. Moon/star themes to Sun themes, their new soceity was not the segregated strucutred society of hte past, the only similarity is that there is strong arcane usage.

Even the magical issues are not the same. You call them addiction because you are thinking blood elf, but it's not addiciton, you are looking at Wretched and Withered and thinking ...oh..same thing.. WRONG. Not same thing, Wretched over indulge and lose control, by feeding on more magical energy they become super addicted. Not so with the nightborne at all, it's not addiciton. Normal nightborne are not addicted, they're smarter than that, when they don't use arcwine their food now, they will starve and evenetually become Withered, NOT drinking directly from the nightwell results in degredation, not excessive usage, it's the inverse. Not the same at all.

The Kal'Dorei are entirely different, they've gone a completely opposing way to any of the civilizations that sprang from highborne roots. As such the Kal'Dorei civilization as we know it in game is fundamentally incompatible with that of the highborne ones.

When you get the wrong impression of the night elven society and teh system, you will draw wrong conclusions. Blood elf society is the only civilization that sprang from highborne roots. Shen'drelar and Nightborne civilizations are still the same highborne night elf civilization gone forward without the craziness of the end of Azshara's reign, they've been Kal'dorei from the start and still are. Quel'dorei Kal'dorei for Shen'drelar, and Shal'dorei Kal'dorei for the Nightborne, the main night elf body just Kal'dorei, and they are night elven without society for 10k years and without arcane magic.

So, no, the kald'orei are just Kal'dorei without the arcane element in their society, they are living with just the nature half, and that's grown too, just like the arcane bit has grown amongst the nightborne since sundering time, so has the nature bit grown amongst the main night elf group, it's basically two halves of the same whole, just one living without the benefits of the other and neither going imbalanced because ofit, but not being complete either. Night elf druidsm is like they use to be with cenarius before they went all over obssessive with the arcane and he backed away from them this was a while before the sundering. ancient night elf society worked with trees and the arcane too, then Azshara went all out of control with the demons.

I never said you didn't, what I did say though was that the Nightborne are neutral as a faction and must remain so. Partially for gameplay reasons but also for very specific lore reasons.

They aren't a hail-mary group of fresh blood to come rejuvenate the Night Elves, far from it. Their civilization and comportment is far closer to the Sin'Dorei with whom they share a closer societal bond and root. Much the same as anyone from Los Angeles shares more in common with someone else from LA than they do someone from Siskiyou County in true Northern California.

It's a pretty basic fact in game that the Kal'Dorei were already a far different group than the Highborne, as such the architecture we see everywhere in Kalimdore and hiding in some places in the Eastern Kingdoms is night Night Elf architecture, but Highborne ruins. This is also played out quite often in quests involving those ruins, such as the one to explore the ruins in Winterspring.

Also what I said was that because the Nightborne are such an entirely different society than that of the Kal'Dorei they are incompatible and the thing to return strength to the Night Elves is the return of the prodigal children - the Demon Hunters. Citizens who were already a part of Night Elf society, but because of their own pain and loss sacrificed their own homes to gain the power to strike at the Legion. Now they are coming home and a place is demanded for them.

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No. Actually I don't admit that. I heartily disagree.

If their racial power needed to be defined in such a way it would actually be a tragic loss as it would be the Night Elves suborning their race and freedom to the Nightborne. Basically a return to the time of Azshara, when the Night Elves were simply the forest and field elves, the ones closer to nature that fed the decadent culture of the cities.

As it stands we don't really think in terms of racial power in terms of populace either. You can say how much the Night Elves have lost but they are still numerically superior to the Draenei which are just a small group stuck on Azeroth. They are also quite likely superior in numbers to the Blood Elves which have just gone through two civil wars, lost a lot of highly-educated relic hunters to Garrosh's hunt for power in Pandaria and lost a large number of farstriders and magisters in their attempt to conquer and unlock the secrets of the Island of Thunder - an offensive that for the Alliance was spearheaded by a "neutral" group of Kirin'Tor.

They also probably have more populace than Tauren which are fast catching up but are still a group that was so small that in-game they were being bullied by simple Centaurs and needed saving by the larger Orcish Horde. They might have about as many members living as the Gnomes which easily lost the majority of their population to the fall of Gnomerangan.

They might also have as many members as the Wildhammer dwarves, a clan that truly still hasn't recovered from the loss of Grim Batol to the Dark Iron curse.

In terms of power though they definitely outclass the Wildhammer and even with their losses the Kal'Dorei still maintain outposts throughout Kalimdor and have a single large city that rivals the other capitals and is still large enough to accept Gilnean refugees.

So yeah. The Night Elves are taking a really big hit in Legion and also took another one in Cataclysm while already on semi-shaky ground where it's basically their martial skills being the only thing holding the orcs and their super numbers back in Ashenvale, but despite all that the civilization still stands strong and is about to get a heavy rejuvenation through the return of the demon hunters and surviving wardens whose vigil is now lost.

and that's why you disagree, becuase you are not viewing the nightborne correctly, you are thinking they are evil and their corruption is of the soul, which the narrative is not telling you. You are drawing conclusions about Kal'dorei origin whic is causing you to fail to see the obvious connection with the two groups.

Blood elf society changed the way they did everything from before, they continued with doing civilization, Founded a new one, different from their past, but definitely arcane based. Night elf society paused on civilization, instead focused completely to a task, funcitonally they only operated with nature, not becasue they didn't know the arcane but because they had thought it was too dangerous to use, they in a sense have not changed.. just focused on the nature side of things, and carried out a task. In another sense yes they have ahcnged, but i prhase it that way for you to really see that you're talking about night elves here, night elf connection, night elf thing.