Legion: Elemental Specific

[trm90]

Yeah we talk about making a noise and feedback etc, but we still don't have that well-respected player who is capable of giving solid feedback in the thread. People are giving good feedback and okay-ish suggestions, but compared to other players in other class threads - e.g. Totallite for priests, Gardiff/Koorr for Resto, or Archimtiros for Arms - the feedback is hard to digest properly.

People are giving good suggestions. There are plenty of Mythic 13/13 Shamans who clearly have a good sense of what's wrong and right. But good feedback should be concise, formatted properly and written well, and most of all, drama-free. I'm not going to point any fingers, but there are a handful of Mythic raiding Shamans in the thread who are total drama queens who can't help but feel "disappointed" every time they post, and constantly proclaim Elemental is dead. This isn't constructive feedback, it's just inflammatory.

I think it would be worth drawing up a list of 2-3 (max) major problems with the spec, especially those that can be fixed by tuning (if Blizzard are so adamant on not changing core gameplay), and getting someone to post nicely-written feedback in the format of Problem -> Solution. To reiterate Werdup (also something Isentropy in the Spriest feedback has pushed), spells or rotations that "feel" bad isn't always the best feedback and can be extremely subjective, especially when there are an equal handful of players who are really enjoying the new Elemental.

As far as I can tell, Stormkeeper and Power of the Maelstrom are two of the biggest culprits at the moment. The problems with LvB and ES not htiting hard enough can eventually be changed with number tuning, but if our total DPS still keeps up, this is more of a subjective problem IMO. I know there's a dozen other problems we could show Blizzard, but we have to push the most for tuning fixes to spells which are objectively holding the spec back.

[Pixiiedust]

Well if u want 3 biggest problems its probably utility,talents and artifact traits? To me ele shams problems isnt dmg Numbers its mechanics and that dont get fixed with number tuning

[miffy23]

Yeah we talk about making a noise and feedback etc, but we still don't have that well-respected player who is capable of giving solid feedback in the thread. People are giving good feedback and okay-ish suggestions, but compared to other players in other class threads - e.g. Totallite for priests, Gardiff/Koorr for Resto, or Archimtiros for Arms - the feedback is hard to digest properly.

People are giving good suggestions. There are plenty of Mythic 13/13 Shamans who clearly have a good sense of what's wrong and right. But good feedback should be concise, formatted properly and written well, and most of all, drama-free. I'm not going to point any fingers, but there are a handful of Mythic raiding Shamans in the thread who are total drama queens who can't help but feel "disappointed" every time they post, and constantly proclaim Elemental is dead. This isn't constructive feedback, it's just inflammatory.

I think it would be worth drawing up a list of 2-3 (max) major problems with the spec, especially those that can be fixed by tuning (if Blizzard are so adamant on not changing core gameplay), and getting someone to post nicely-written feedback in the format of Problem -> Solution. To reiterate Werdup (also something Isentropy in the Spriest feedback has pushed), spells or rotations that "feel" bad isn't always the best feedback and can be extremely subjective, especially when there are an equal handful of players who are really enjoying the new Elemental.

As far as I can tell, Stormkeeper and Power of the Maelstrom are two of the biggest culprits at the moment. The problems with LvB and ES not htiting hard enough can eventually be changed with number tuning, but if our total DPS still keeps up, this is more of a subjective problem IMO. I know there's a dozen other problems we could show Blizzard, but we have to push the most for tuning fixes to spells which are objectively holding the spec back.

All of this.
Boil it down to the most pressing matters at hand and start a concerted effort to get them addressed in the still ample time that is left. We have 3 months for pete's sake, and it's not like we're talking about a complete rework, these are details that need to be worked out so it doesn't spiral out of control later.

[Deleted]

I disagree. Looking at the face value (which is what the person you referenced did) may make things look fun, but tuning aside when inherent issues in design that will skew performance and create significant scaling (buzzword) issues down the line that are not obvious on the surface but when you look under the hood are very clearly there, is what feedback is meant to be.

If you want to know if the spec fits your fantasy and is a happy romp sure, but feedback on a serious level needs to take into account the mechanical workings of a spec that may not be clear but are still very serious. These are the same issues that start at Beta and fester until you get situations like HFC where they become serious. Relying on the "tuning isn't here yet" thing isn't an excuse to just talk about how it "feels" in a dungeon when things like that exist.

That's fine, but surely you can appreciate that the spec is not so badly designed, numbers wise, that the issues down the line you talk about cannot be tuned if it ever does become a problem? At this stage, having decent game play is far far more important than any number tuning that may or may not happen two or three patches down the road, and while it's good to give feed back about this sort of thing, I don't think people should be getting so stressed out about it that they're threatening to re-roll already.

Feedback on a serious level should include all aspects of the spec and while I agree entirely that talking about the numbers is extremely worthwhile, I don't agree that the numbers are more important than the gameplay as they can always be adjusted to make up any short falls in scaling if/when it happens.

Nothing about the current design will make elemental unplayable further down to road. How well Elemental will be when compared to other classes will depend *entirely* on number tuning, so while I'm not advocating "tuning isn't here yet", I am saying it's far less important then everyone is making it out to be.

[miffy23]

That's fine, but surely you can appreciate that the spec is not so badly designed, numbers wise, that the issues down the line you talk about cannot be tuned if it ever does become a problem? At this stage, having decent game play is far far more important than any number tuning that may or may not happen two or three patches down the road, and while it's good to give feed back about this sort of thing, I don't think people should be getting so stressed out about it that they're threatening to re-roll already.

Feedback on a serious level should include all aspects of the spec and while I agree entirely that talking about the numbers is extremely worthwhile, I don't agree that the numbers are more important than the gameplay as they can always be adjusted to make up any short falls in scaling if/when it happens.

Nothing about the current design will make elemental unplayable further down to road. How well Elemental will be when compared to other classes will depend *entirely* on number tuning, so while I'm not advocating "tuning isn't here yet", I am saying it's far less important then everyone is making it out to be.

At this point it seems likely that, while the spec is basically enjoyable to play, its mechanics and artifact traits will make it undesirable for progress raiding setups even in 7.0 Mythic. This is why those issues need to be addressed now, before live, else the spec will flounder in progress again as it has for several years.

It is not just number tuning at this point, Elemental lags behind in direct comparison to most other ranged specs at this point of development for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is the clunkiness and conflicting intention behind Stormkeeper, lack of damage mitigation talents, etc. Fundamentally the spec plays fine, but according to every number cruncher and raid tester it does not hold up in comparison to most other range specs right now.

The talent system also has several identity issues and conflicts that contribute to the overall problems.

I really enjoy the spec, but looking at the theorycrafting that's being done and comparing it to the other ranged specs quickly reveals why it is in severe danger of becoming undesirable spec number one for Shamans again.

[trm90]

Well if u want 3 biggest problems its probably utility,talents and artifact traits? To me ele shams problems isnt dmg Numbers its mechanics and that dont get fixed with number tuning

I agree with you on this, but at this stage of development it's extremely difficult to get Blizzard to budge. In the last dozen or so builds, only a select few classes received new spells (e.g. Brewmasters: Expel Harm) or mechanics (e.g. Mistweavers: RJW enhances Essence Font).

As a shitty example, numbers changes that indirectly improve gameplay/function could look like this:

1) Stormkeeper feels inhibitive, especially in single-target boss encounters --> reduce it's cast time by half, or let us cast it on the move

2) Power of the Maelstrom interacts in a counterintuitive way with Lava Burst builds --> let PotM affect Lava Burst overloads as well, or allow it to proc off LB and affect LvB as an inverse

3) With the removal of grounding+tremor totem/Sham Rage/Healing Rain+HST, our base utility is lacking --> either buff Reincarnation significantly (could literally be used as a "Cheat Death" mechanic), or make Ancestral Guidance baseline and replace it with Rainfall

[Ilir]

The artefact spell should really do damage or be instant.

The shadow artefact spell (Void Torrent) used to be a cast time + a channel in early alpha which was obviously really dumb and they changed it into an instant cast channelled ability that hits like a truck.

When I saw the shaman ones, I was like wtf is that ? it doesn't make any sense that it doesn't damage your ennemies AND has a cast time.

[Rezhka]

1) Stormkeeper feels inhibitive, especially in single-target boss encounters --> reduce it's cast time by half, or let us cast it on the move

2) Power of the Maelstrom interacts in a counterintuitive way with Lava Burst builds --> let PotM affect Lava Burst overloads as well, or allow it to proc off LB and affect LvB as an inverse

1.) To have SK with a cast time is really astonishing me. I mean, I wonder if they add the cast time just for that newly added animation sake?! Not to mention the low duration buff as well. With so much stuff going on (move outta shit, LS procs, Maels managing, Ele Blast ofcd managing if you spec for it, Trinket proc with Ascendance if you proc for it, Elemental Focus, can't even imagine those GCDs geez...), our priority/rotation to optimize shit will become chaotic. Even if with SK as an instant cast that cost a GCD, is already too much if you ask me. Since its not like new moonkins moon fall or spriest new hentai beam that deal damage straight out of it. If they really want to keep that animation, they should've at least made the buffed LB to be instant cast to compensate. Or remove the LB charges' duration.

2.) I love this PoTM idea. It'd be still conflicting with Ascendance, but may add more flavor to our regular rotation.

If I may add, I'd love to have Totemic Fury back, as our baseline cooldown. It was the best overall cooldown that affect almost all of our spells.

[Jotaux]

1.) To have SK with a cast time is really astonishing me. I mean, I wonder if they add the cast time just for that newly added animation sake?! Not to mention the low duration buff as well. With so much stuff going on (move outta shit, LS procs, Maels managing, Ele Blast ofcd managing if you spec for it, Trinket proc with Ascendance if you proc for it, Elemental Focus, can't even imagine those GCDs geez...), our priority/rotation to optimize shit will become chaotic. Even with SK as an instant cast that cost a GCD, is already too much if you ask me. Since its not like new moonkins moon fall or spriest new hentai beam that deal damage straight out of it. If they really want to keep that animation, they should've at least made the buffed LB to be instant cast to compensate. Or remove the LB charges' duration.

I would love the duration to be longer, I'm having a difficult time fitting in lightning bolts with lava burst, elemental blast, Icefury or w/e its called, flame shock, frost shock, and earth shock. Usually I lose out on either icefury charges or sk charges.

[Riistov]

I really wouldn't use Demo as an example. That spec was an ungodly mess this expansion. So much so that it was nerfed to the ground so that no one would play the spec because they didn't know how to balance it.

I had this suspicion at the time as well. The re-work in Legion seems to confirm the theory.

[Rezhka]

I would love the duration to be longer, I'm having a difficult time fitting in lightning bolts with lava burst, elemental blast, Icefury or w/e its called, flame shock, frost shock, and earth shock. Usually I lose out on either icefury charges or sk charges.

Ikr, even me that don't have the beta access, can imagine the chaos to optimize stuff when shits happen and procs are going crazy.

[Prankish]

Yeah we talk about making a noise and feedback etc, but we still don't have that well-respected player who is capable of giving solid feedback in the thread. People are giving good feedback and okay-ish suggestions, but compared to other players in other class threads - e.g. Totallite for priests, Gardiff/Koorr for Resto, or Archimtiros for Arms - the feedback is hard to digest properly.

People are giving good suggestions. There are plenty of Mythic 13/13 Shamans who clearly have a good sense of what's wrong and right. But good feedback should be concise, formatted properly and written well, and most of all, drama-free. I'm not going to point any fingers, but there are a handful of Mythic raiding Shamans in the thread who are total drama queens who can't help but feel "disappointed" every time they post, and constantly proclaim Elemental is dead. This isn't constructive feedback, it's just inflammatory.

I think it would be worth drawing up a list of 2-3 (max) major problems with the spec, especially those that can be fixed by tuning (if Blizzard are so adamant on not changing core gameplay), and getting someone to post nicely-written feedback in the format of Problem -> Solution. To reiterate Werdup (also something Isentropy in the Spriest feedback has pushed), spells or rotations that "feel" bad isn't always the best feedback and can be extremely subjective, especially when there are an equal handful of players who are really enjoying the new Elemental.

As far as I can tell, Stormkeeper and Power of the Maelstrom are two of the biggest culprits at the moment. The problems with LvB and ES not htiting hard enough can eventually be changed with number tuning, but if our total DPS still keeps up, this is more of a subjective problem IMO. I know there's a dozen other problems we could show Blizzard, but we have to push the most for tuning fixes to spells which are objectively holding the spec back.

Maybe the people who were willing to put any effort into the spec all left? I mean that's completely reasonable. The rest of the M Ele Sham raiders are just too stubborn to leave but are still willing to bitch. I know I am to some extent. Plus, why would I fight for a spec that's been so consistently crap. I mean why would I put in so much effort as to write up a fantastic post with the collective reasonable requests of the Shaman community when they will simply be ignored. When the alternative is what every M Elemental Shaman on here has already chose, just have a strong alt and switch once we get shat all over at the start of legion.

You're asking for a lot of effort and investment on a dead game that we are currently playing for 0-2 hours a week. The alternative of general shitposting is much more attractive to me.

[Kralljin]

I had this suspicion at the time as well. The re-work in Legion seems to confirm the theory.

The main reason for that is the introduction of DH, they couldn't have Demo with Metamorphosis as core mechanic while there's also DH hopping around with Meta as their signature ability.

As for artifact discussion:

I think the easiest change would be simply to let Power of the Maelstrom work slightly different:

The Trait now causes your Stormkeeper to consume a Lava Burst charge, fire off a Lava burst immediately and trigger the Power of the Maelstrom effect.

Perhaps let it deal nature damage / lightning animation to be line with the artifact.

Wouldn't solve every problem, especially with EotE / Ascendance but those talent cannot be fixed in that regard unless you let Stormkeeper affect lava burst, which might cause them, especially EotE, to be very imbalanced.

And as for Ascendance, it just doesn't fit anymore, it needs to transform Earth shock as well, sad to see that it actually did this during the early alpha.

[chairmanmao]

Maybe the people who were willing to put any effort into the spec all left? I mean that's completely reasonable. The rest of the M Ele Sham raiders are just too stubborn to leave but are still willing to bitch. I know I am to some extent. Plus, why would I fight for a spec that's been so consistently crap. I mean why would I put in so much effort as to write up a fantastic post with the collective reasonable requests of the Shaman community when they will simply be ignored. When the alternative is what every M Elemental Shaman on here has already chose, just have a strong alt and switch once we get shat all over at the start of legion.

You're asking for a lot of effort and investment on a dead game that we are currently playing for 0-2 hours a week. The alternative of general shitposting is much more attractive to me.

We've already written many of these effort posts in the various alpha feedback threads and in the beta feedback thread. They don't give a shit. We've been telling them for half a year it's dumb as hell that Stormkeeper has a cast time and hey can we change this, nope don't give a shit. Ancestral Guidance which would be awful if it was baseline is actually consuming space in our movement talent row. Again, asked for a solution for month, no response, don't give a shit. Cap Totem is literally a talent, don't give a shit.

[binkenstein]

All of this.
Boil it down to the most pressing matters at hand and start a concerted effort to get them addressed in the still ample time that is left. We have 3 months for pete's sake, and it's not like we're talking about a complete rework, these are details that need to be worked out so it doesn't spiral out of control later.

I have been. Repeatedly.

Yeah we talk about making a noise and feedback etc, but we still don't have that well-respected player who is capable of giving solid feedback in the thread. People are giving good feedback and okay-ish suggestions, but compared to other players in other class threads - e.g. Totallite for priests, Gardiff/Koorr for Resto, or Archimtiros for Arms - the feedback is hard to digest properly.

Hi.

[miffy23]

I have been. Repeatedly.



Hi.

Ok, then let's have more people support it and push it?

I don't subscribe to trm90's concept that it just requires that "one good player" to represent the community, it needs concerted efforts to bring it up again and again.

[Deleted]

Rearm yourselves, Shaman! Follow these Twitter accounts

@ WarcraftDevs

@ Theka[/MENTION]lgan [Game Director]

@ WatcherDev [Assit. Game Director]

@ Holinka [Lead PvP Designer]

@ craig_amai [Lead Class Designer] (probably the most incompetent bastard I've ever seen, why does he even have a Twitter account)

@ Celestalon [Class Designer]

@ ckaleiki [Class Designer]

[miffy23]

@ craig_amai [Lead Class Designer] (probably the most incompetent bastard I've ever seen, why does he even have a Twitter account)

Immature crap like this is why I can't take you seriously.

But yes, I will join the twitter campaign as well.

[Hellfury]

And as for Ascendance, it just doesn't fit anymore, it needs to transform Earth shock as well, sad to see that it actually did this during the early alpha.

boggles my mind that elemental at the start of the Alpha has actually cool mechanic that were axed because they made sence, Iam not this guy but seems elemental is a "social" experience to see how stuburn some players are.

And visually there were almost no upgrades, only LB. Some classes got all new fancy stuff we are left with bugs with "melee" casting, weapons/shield clipping all over the place because they have to be seen!!!!

[binkenstein]

I'd just like to say that twitter spamming Devs isn't the way to go to get changes.