"Basic Income" is a terrible idea

[Faloestin]

Yes we do have welfare and we will improve our social programs over time to help people make ends meet. Basic income isnt going to be implemented anytime soon though. Advancing automation isn't something that just hits you one day, it happens over the course of multiple decades.

We certainly don't have welfare in the European basic-income sense. We don't even have welfare like we used to, meaning support from the state for the indigent that isn't behind work or training gates. I love your optimism, and maybe we will improve our social programs to help people over time. But given the tenor of much of this thread (and the folks on Capitol Hill who say the same thing), I'm a little skeptical.

[alturic]

Bro Bob and Bro Pete are on the streets looking for homeless people to make fun, with their new YouTube channel, HomeAlong. They go around laughing at people who couldn't get Basic Income because Jaylock really hates you. The majority of tax payers agree that jobless people should just crawl into a corner and die a painful death. Hopefully without collaborating together into a large lynch mob.

1.) Those guys need to be severely injured.

2.) This lady is the EXACT reason (if that was in the US) why I can't stand how we (the US) give money to other countries all the time, disasters, etc when we can't take care of our own citizens. We shouldn't (nor should ANY country) be giving away money, food, etc to ANYONE until they can take care of all their own citizens.

That is all.

[PC2]

and the people on welfare it is up to them to get skilled enough to be employed and many to many wont they rather sit their ass at home and play Xbox then go out and make the effort to learn a skill so to be employable

If they aren't hard at work taking advantage of things like Coursera or edX, they aren't trying very hard. I do think the internet should be a right though, as it will be the main way for poor people to better themselves.

[Tyrianth]

Yes we do have welfare and we will improve our social programs over time to help people make ends meet. Basic income isnt going to be implemented anytime soon though. Advancing automation isn't something that just hits you one day, it happens over the course of multiple decades.

Nobody is suggesting we implement basic income tomorrow. But why wait until automation has already done its damage? That doesn't seem like good policy making.

[Vyxn]

"Taxes" aren't a 4 letter word. Taxation was part of the Mincome system. So yes, it paid for itself.



That isn't how any of this works, no. You're operating under the delusion that jobs are infinite.



Because you answered your own question. Governments raise revenues largely through taxes. The sources I provided explained how Mincome's tax system worked. It was all right there, which is why your question was ludicrous.



From the taxes the same population was providing.

I really don't see how you aren't getting this. It wasn't borrowed from anywhere.



All you're doing is admitting that you have even less reason to dispute how functional a Basic Income program could be. Since all the evidence we do have is that it works and maintains itself.

You don't get to just invent fantasies about how it "must" collapse, not without evidence.

it is a proven fact
you pay people not to work guess what you have? an increase of people not working
just like when you pay single mothers not to get married guess what you had a increase of ? single mothers

and no that short experiment didn't last long enough for any consequences to show up

[The King in Yellow]

umm are you serious?

The solution is to get a higher skilled job? Go to technical school, get some training, go to college, etc. Better yourself? I mean why should anyone have an excuse of "oh shit i just lost my burger flipping job, the tax payers should now be forced to support me"?

Say it with me now:

Self-Reliance.

The solution is just get a higher skilled job, get a new education and get training..

Oh yes because that's how it works, totally. Especially if you can just get around with a just above minimum wage in for example where I live; aka can't afford all these "Just get a higher skilled job" or "Just get a better education"

But hey I guess everyone here who is forced to actually work their arse off to eventually have well only around 10 - 20% of his/her income left just should go and better themselves because their not self-reliant, right?

And with the constant strife for more and more automation; a job won't save you either in the long run. As most companies are literally leaving the country or completely automating their manufacturing, customer service and even logistical processes.

[Jaylock]

Only yours mate. Only yours <3. Also if those on that income are actively trying to seek work then fair enough. Moochers who have no interesting in seeking work however just no.

I agree with you. I agree that there should be a safety net to help people who are just down on their luck and cant find a job or get laid off or whatnot. The welfare system needs to be completely re-worked imo, because there is spending in welfare and entitlements that are just completely unnecessary and promotes people cheesing a system.

That being said, I don't think there should be a government mandated program that gives a "basic income" to everyone, as it would be disastrous with huge tax hikes all across the board to pay for such a program. Self-reliance should be taught during the unemployment stage of someone trying to find work. Possibly free classes could be part of the unemployment / welfare system to teach people about the proper way to spend money, how to get out of debt, how to save, etc. Change wouldn't happen over night, but as people got educated with proper finance management, improvements would start to happen, and over time, society as a whole would be much better off.

[alturic]

"Taxes" aren't a 4 letter word. Taxation was part of the Mincome system. So yes, it paid for itself.

Because you answered your own question. Governments raise revenues largely through taxes. The sources I provided explained how Mincome's tax system worked. It was all right there, which is why your question was ludicrous.

From the taxes the same population was providing.

I really don't see how you aren't getting this. It wasn't borrowed from anywhere.

Right, now in the real-world this is how the system "paid for itself", either taxes went up to offset this new expense, or other programs were cut in order to cover this new expense.

Something doesn't "pay for itself" when you take money from taxes and pay for it. So let's use a real-world example of things "paying for themselves":

1.) LED bulbs. There's an up-front investment, but EVENTUALLY they "pay for themselves" in the savings.
2.) Solar panels. Same as above.

So, and perhaps I'm now beginning to see it, EVENTUALLY this would "pay for itself" because they would be able to cut all other welfare programs since people were originally getting those already?

[Deleted]

In Holland you can earn more then someone working from wellfare.



Thats what someone can get.. Including perks, special fees, subsidized shit etc.
And ofcourse you can work off the books on the side earning you some extra on top of that.

The average working dutchy earns around 25k net...
http://modaal-inkomen.nl/modaal-inkomen

[Tyrianth]

I agree with you. I agree that there should be a safety net to help people who are just down on their luck and cant find a job or get laid off or whatnot. The welfare system needs to be completely re-worked imo, because there is spending in welfare and entitlements that are just completely unnecessary and promotes people cheesing a system.

That being said, I don't think there should be a government mandated program that gives a "basic income" to everyone, as it would be disastrous with huge tax hikes all across the board to pay for such a program. Self-reliance should be taught during the unemployment stage of someone trying to find work. Possibly free classes could be part of the unemployment / welfare system to teach people about the proper way to spend money, how to get out of debt, how to save, etc. Change wouldn't happen over night, but as people got educated with proper finance management, improvements would start to happen, and over time, society as a whole would be much better off.

How can you have proper finance management if there are no jobs to supply the finance?

What good are money management classes when people can't find a job due to automation taking all the low skill jobs. Just get a skill? Ok how do that with no source of income? Are you going to provide free college or university where people can learn these skills? And then what, they got a new skill, along with the millions of other people who recently got laid off and now they're all competing for jobs in a market that has none.

[Baelic]

We're eventually going to have no choice unless you feel like euthanizing a large portion of the population since technology will displace a large portion of jobs. Heck, we're already running into that situation where there isn't enough work for the number of humans on Earth.

One way or another, something will give.

[alturic]

What do you expect those people to do in the current system? Die off? No, you end up paying them anyway in the form of welfare and medical bills. Just in this case you waste money on system that has to go through their paperwork and determine how much money they should get, but in the end, those people will still get paid money, in one form or another.

Frankly? Sure, die off. I mean it sounds insane, and of course I don't TRULY mean it but like what the fuck. Again, I'm all for helping people out TEMPORARILY, but when you can "get by" by living off the government, what in the actual fuck? I don't have an answer. I do however like to think people would be like "oh shit, I guess I'm going to have to get a job" if they weren't able to sit home and live of the government.

[Gamdwelf]

If someone wants to be known as the litter mom/breeder, then let them go ahead. It's not like people are already doing it...

Well the USA used to do that. Provide mothers with a check after giving birth. My jr high school history teacher remembered when many girls 12 and 13 were pregnant much of the time because they got government checks for each kid.

[alexw]

You know, I've never, ever in my life thought taxation was "wrong" or "bad" or "theft" or anything like that, I do however have a major problem thinking that (it's going to be a long time, if ever I can replace anyone with robots in my business) I'm going to be penalized for being able to use robots instead of humans.

Who knows though, if companies who used robots were taxed 50% of the total pay that the worker(s) the robot replaced, maybe they wouldn't have a problem with it since they are still saving 50%.

You would not be penalized for using robots. It would be a tax on general capital. So for example a higher corporation tax and a higher rate of tax on dividends. Neither of those discourage the use of robots and the incentives to automate (lower costs relative to employees) would still be there.

[Daedius]

OP acts as though people on such income live in luxury...

[Deleted]

I think your points are quite wrong.

The problem with basic income is that it gives the state a vast amount of power. While the idea of wiping out the welfare state with a single basic cost of living payment to everyone is quite attractive as work becomes a activity to increase personal income as opposed to a need. The size and cost of the state will shrink but its role will expand. The state will become a lifetime employer essentially. This could be used to enforce changes in spending habits and lifestyles.

Look at the USA food stamps, they are only redeemable for certian items that the state considers essential. It would be opening the door to lifestyle regulation for the poor. Then add that the basic income would artificially subsidise poor paying buisnesses (more so than it already does now). It wouldn't get rid of that problem but extend it. And since the floor price of living is covered it would incentivise private buisness to pay even more poorly (and less with skilled work too) in order to maximise profit since they state intervention covers the basic living costs.

Its got alot of pitfalls much like alot of Utopian ideas.

[Deleted]

People will not quit to live off of basic income. People are greedy, they want more than the basics so they will work to get more than the basics.

People don't want to live in these:



They want to live in these:

I get your point, but the first pic still kind of looks more appealing to me. :/

[Endus]

it is a proven fact
you pay people not to work guess what you have? an increase of people not working
just like when you pay single mothers not to get married guess what you had a increase of ? single mothers

and no that short experiment didn't last long enough for any consequences to show up

What? None of this is even remotely true, and was conclusively contradicted by the Mincome data.

It isn't a "proven fact". It's a bunch of nonsense you literally made up.

Right, now in the real-world this is how the system "paid for itself", either taxes went up to offset this new expense, or other programs were cut in order to cover this new expense.

Yes, you've discovered that taxes pay for government spending. I'm not sure why this is such a revelation.

[alturic]

Of course i want to work again but not while i must do it because i want to help peopel to change their lifes i dont want to work in a job where you serve others this is not the way peopel should live only if they want to serve but not strangers for a minimum only to survive.
The Problem is that peopel like you think helping peopel on the street aka social work is not work because i do it freely so no one pay me this. All what you do is Work when you look at it when you put you pizza in the stove its work to no one pay you but it is work. This stupid you must work or you die is not more why peopel are so on it maybe because of the past where you needed to work hard or you die this is absurd in the time we life on to work 9 hours or more just to have enough to survive. Its like you want to be a Slave of this System. 10 years later you will see that there are not enough jobs that not all can work because of robots do the most work in most jobs. I also dont like Democraty everyone should decide if he wants this or not and not all for you or let the peopel decide like in Swiss not stupid politicans but i think i am now to much offtopic.

"I want to work, but only when I decide I want to work". Insane.

[Deleted]

People will not quit to live off of basic income. People are greedy, they want more than the basics so they will work to get more than the basics.

People don't want to live in these:



They want to live in these:

"people"?

In spain people dont give a shit about housing and furniture.
They spend their money mainly on food and going out. "fun stuff".