"Basic Income" is a terrible idea

[Belloc]

Do you actually like the thought of being paid to sit on your ass? Err, scratch that, do you actually like the thought of everyone getting money to LITERALLY sit on their ass? It makes ZERO sense.

I already get paid to sit on my ass. What I like is the thought that no one has to work anymore and can, instead, do whatever they want.

Do you like the thought of getting paid to travel the world, climb mountains, swim in the ocean, explore caves? What about getting paid to play virtual reality simulations? Make art that no one else ever needs to see? Where every author can write whatever they want without having to worry about feeding their children. Where every game designer can design the kind of games that they want to play, without having publishers and managers telling him what to do.

I like those thoughts. I like the thought of a world where almost every job is automated and where people are free to explore their imaginations. You know, a Star Trek style utopia? The exact kind of world that we should all strive for? Yes, I like those thoughts, indeed. How can YOU not like them? Or did you simply not realize that potential?

[alturic]

In Holland you can earn more then someone working from wellfare.



Thats what someone can get.. Including perks, special fees, subsidized shit etc.
And ofcourse you can work off the books on the side earning you some extra on top of that.

The average working dutchy earns around 25k net...
http://modaal-inkomen.nl/modaal-inkomen

Obviously I don't know what any of those words are, but I love how there's a "JC Shuffle" type spreadsheet out there to find out if it's better to work or mooch off the government.

[Tyrianth]

I get your point, but the first pic still kind of looks more appealing to me. :/

Which is okay, you might even be happy living off of basic income. Which is totally fine. In a world with far fewer jobs if the people who want to live a basic life don't have to enter the job market it frees up a spot for someone who wants to live in that second picture and will work to obtain it.

[Deleted]

What? None of this is even remotely true, and was conclusively contradicted by the Mincome data.

It isn't a "proven fact". It's a bunch of nonsense you literally made up.



Yes, you've discovered that taxes pay for government spending. I'm not sure why this is such a revelation.

Most people take the easy way.
Working 40h a week and earning 2k or not working 40h week and earning 2k.
You dont see the logical effect of human nature vs an equal reward structure?

[Tyrianth]

"people"?

In spain people dont give a shit about housing and furniture.
They spend their money mainly on food and going out. "fun stuff".

Great, and in Spain people wont be able to afford to get "fun stuff" living on a basic income. They will have to work for that. "Fun stuff" isn't part of a basic lifestyle that comes with basic income. (Key word is basic if you havent noticed)

[Jaylock]

"Taxes" aren't a 4 letter word. Taxation was part of the Mincome system. So yes, it paid for itself.

Again, you show your ignorance as to how taxes work.

1) A person (collectively a society) makes 50k a year. For ease of math purposes, they pay 10k in taxes to the government.
2) A program like "basic income" is announced. How do we pay for it? We cant take it from the 10k mr taxpayer is paying because that is already going to roads, special interest programs, government jobs, infrastructure, social justice groups, etc.
3) Solutions to pay for it? Increase taxes. Now mr tax payer pays 15k instead of 10k.

So don't make up fabricated stories that a massive government program like "basic income" pays for itself, because that is bonafied bullshit. Someone is paying for it, and it would be everyone who pays taxes paying for it in the form of an INCREASE in their tax rate.

From the taxes the same population was providing.

So they just cut government spending in other areas to pay for this mini program? What if this program was permanently implemented? You don't think that the government officials would have to put a piece of legislation together that would raise taxes to pay for such a program? You think they would just cut other government programs to pay for it? You are delusional if you think that.

Bottom line @Endus, government programs don't just magically pay for themselves. Someone has to pay for it in the form of taxes. And if you think a short test period that the government may have reallocated funds to "test" it out was evidence of it "paying for itself," and you don't think they would raise taxes to put in a permanent program, I have some beach front property in Colorado i'm willing to sell you.

[Deleted]

Great, and in Spain people wont be able to afford to get "fun stuff" living on a basic income. They will have to work for that. "Fun stuff" isn't part of a basic lifestyle that comes with basic income. (Key word is basic if you havent noticed)

Basic is subjective. Fun stuff is subjective. Someone getting a basic income of say 1k can spend 300 on housing and 700 on getting smashed every day of the week. Someone else can spend 900 on housing and not do something fun. Another can live in a tent and drive a BMW.

Define "fun stuff".

[alturic]

Why is it that retards think that you can somehow just not give people enough to have roof over their heads and food in their bellies?

I really want someone to explain this to me.

Ask that question when there is (literally) zero jobs available, which there is plenty of available. I'd answer it then, personally. For me though, it's not a matter of not (I do like how you literally say it) giving people money to have a roof over their heads and food. It's a matter of people are given all this with them have zero expectation of wanting to find a job or better themselves. There's no reason, in their mind, for them to do so.

[alexw]

Welfare will help people until they become skilled enough to be employed.

Lol no. If jobs get automated away as predicted skill levels will be irrelevant. All jobs skilled and unskilled will be impacted. Historically the reason people could find new work after their old work was automated away was because that new work was work which robots/etc could not (yet) do. What is happening is that robots are reaching a level where they are capable of doing the majority of work better/cheaper/efficiently than humans will ever do, so that even if new sectors of work were created robots would just immediately fill those positions instead of humans.

[Gamdwelf]

Why is it that retards think that you can somehow just not give people enough to have roof over their heads and food in their bellies?

I really want someone to explain this to me.

They should have thought of that before becoming peasants.

[alturic]

What? None of this is even remotely true, and was conclusively contradicted by the Mincome data.

It isn't a "proven fact". It's a bunch of nonsense you literally made up.



Yes, you've discovered that taxes pay for government spending. I'm not sure why this is such a revelation.

Because, you make it sound like this "Mincome" system is amazing. It's not amazing. It raises taxes on people who actually want to better themselves, while once again giving people who don't want to work, another reason, not to work.

[Ivanstone]

Most people take the easy way.
Working 40h a week and earning 2k or not working 40h week and earning 2k.
You dont see the logic in human nature vs reward structure?

What is the "easy" way? The way of sitting around bored out of your fucking skull? Yes, some people can handle it but others would simply rather do some work because it as least occupies your mind.

[alexw]

You still have ~28 hours a week to "work on those" though? While I do side with conservatives more than liberals, I do think a welfare system (the original US intent of it anyway) I don't think it's a "human right" to have healthcare, be given money just to breath, have some extra for entertainment, etc. While I might be a monster to the general population (no free healthcare, etc) I HIGHLY doubt that if people were given enough money to "get by, plus some extra for entertainment" people WOULD say "wait... why should I work when I'm making enough money to live the way it is?" There is WAY less "go getters" than not.

But why would you want them to work if robots can do the work more efficiently/cheaper/accurately than humans can?

[alturic]

I already get paid to sit on my ass. What I like is the thought that no one has to work anymore and can, instead, do whatever they want.

Do you like the thought of getting paid to travel the world, climb mountains, swim in the ocean, explore caves? What about getting paid to play virtual reality simulations? Make art that no one else ever needs to see? Where every author can write whatever they want without having to worry about feeding their children. Where every game designer can design the kind of games that they want to play, without having publishers and managers telling him what to do.

I like those thoughts. I like the thought of a world where almost every job is automated and where people are free to explore their imaginations. You know, a Star Trek style utopia? The exact kind of world that we should all strive for? Yes, I like those thoughts, indeed. How can YOU not like them? Or did you simply not realize that potential?

Like the other person, that's some insane logic. I guess it all comes back to how people were raised though. Me? I was raised to earn what I want. Not expect it to be given to me. :-/

[Vyxn]

What? None of this is even remotely true, and was conclusively contradicted by the Mincome data.

It isn't a "proven fact". It's a bunch of nonsense you literally made up.



Yes, you've discovered that taxes pay for government spending. I'm not sure why this is such a revelation.

it didn't last long enough for you to make that claim just like the increase of single mothers didn't show up till a decade after welfare was implemented
consequences and repercussions of social programs takes time for the effects can be judged

[Deleted]

What is the "easy" way? The way of sitting around bored out of your fucking skull? Yes, some people can handle it but others would simply rather do some work because it as least occupies your mind.

Or go painting. Do hobbies. Drink beers. Work on the side off the books (so u dont have to pay tax). etc.

"Hey there, im gonna give you 2k for free and you dont have to do jackshit for it"
vs
"hey there, want 2k? Work every day from 9-5 and ill give it to you".

Hell, who woulnd take the first deal and THEN do something on the side to occupy the mind.

[Anastacy]

Most people take the easy way.
Working 40h a week and earning 2k or not working 40h week and earning 2k.
You dont see the logic in human nature vs reward structure?

Working 40h a week would not just be earning 2k. It would be 2k plus whatever you earn from working 40h a week.

[ShadowofVashj]

Regardless of political bantering (waaaahhh socialism/communism waaaaahh), isn't something like basic income going to be a natural outcome of automation anyway?

And I mean let's even fast forward past the warehouse stocking/fast food cashier robots, what about robots who are going to be building power plants or performing surgery or analyzing law cases? When you think about the telescoping that technology has undergone over the past 100 years hell even the past 10 years, it's completely reasonable to believe (assuming we don't blow ourselves up) that technology will lead to ways where people don't have to "work" in a traditional sense anymore. We've already seen a preview of this with globalization and the exportation of cheap jobs overseas. The search for "cheaper" labor will lead eventually lead to robots/automation. What of our economic system then? Thousands of years of the idea of "do work, get paid" is going to be challenged by this.

We might as well start at least experimenting and exploring these kind of economic ideas.

[Nihilist74]

Basic income for all is a great idea. If was ruler of the world, I would implement it. I would also put everyone to work who was elderly, too young or disabled. Everyone would work in the various factories for food, clothing, housing, utilities. Luxury and entertainment items would be the only things that were capitalistic.

[zorkuus]

Most people take the easy way.
Working 40h a week and earning 2k or not working 40h week and earning 2k.
You dont see the logical effect of human nature vs an equal reward structure?

By most you must mean a tiny minority. In Finland if I had the will I could be perpetually unemployed. I choose not to because I have been unemployed and it's fucking boring.

Or go painting. Do hobbies. Drink beers. Work on the side off the books (so u dont have to pay tax). etc.

"Hey there, im gonna give you 2k for free and you dont have to do jackshit for it"
vs
"hey there, want 2k? Work every day from 9-5 and ill give it to you".

Hell, who woulnd take the first deal and THEN do something on the side to occupy the mind.

This has been explained already. You would not get 2K by working, you would get 2K + a paycheck.