[Beta] Havoc Discussion

[nox597]

I have this suggestion for PvP...and it will probably not be very popular

BUT

To keep up with the Fantasy of the class...I think Demon Hunters should be excluded from PvP and cherry pick the useful PvP talents into the PvE.

Our fight is with the Legion...and not the petty squabble about who controls a Farm, Nor do we fight for sport in an Arena

Going by lore, part of me would agree with you. I would understand defending oneself from misguided individuals like Maiev, and her wardens, and it also makes little sense joining the alliance/horde based on race... But an argument can also be made for skirmishes that are useful in training up our new allies ("If you can't handle me throwing a little Fel energy at you, how will you handle an actual demon?!").

Out of RP, there will always be people who want to be able to compete against each other in a constructed fashion, and it was one of the core things the game was built around, and it's unlikely that DHs will be excluded from that.
@Tangman Do we need more Armor to be able to compete against other melee? I saw online that it seems Sub rogues are a hard counter to DH, regardless of our spectral sight, thanks to all the stuns and the high damage. Perhaps if we had a built-in "Takes less damage while stunned" passive as a PvP talent?

[Manu9]

As opposed to Felblade, yes. As in, you won't pick First Blood over Felblade unless its a very heavy AoE fight. If you do pick First Blood, you'll obviously be using Blade Dance in your rotation, however.

Again, What?

FB is better on 2+ not 4+ (with the Talent)

[Baelroc]

Again, What?

FB is better on 2+ not 4+ (with the Talent)

I would disagree. With the nerf to Blade Dance's damage, its barely doing more than a CS which can crit refund (this will be even more pronounced at higher crit levels). Death Sweep is even worse comparably because you are missing out on an Annihilation cleave as well. I am fairly certain the widely believed number where First Blood pulls ahead is at the VERY least 4 targets. And thats considering that you have 4+ targets every time BD is off CD.

Felblade is just going to be better if it stays as is. The extra damage, fury gen, and uptime on target / momentum buff is just too good.

[Schlosh]

Has anyone done any searching for the Havoc hidden artifact appearance? Or does anyone have any theories they want to throw out I can go chase down in the beta in search of it?


http://legion.wowhead.com/item=13954...he-deathwalker

[Soulfròst]

Has anyone done any searching for the Havoc hidden artifact appearance? Or does anyone have any theories they want to throw out I can go chase down in the beta in search of it?


http://legion.wowhead.com/item=13954...he-deathwalker

"A dark weapon from a long dead master, hungering to taste blood again."

Hmm... Long dead master... Who could that be?

[Deleted]

I'm not sure how to reply to people asking for things so shot out at the dark @nox597
I'm not sure what DH really would require for PvP as I'm not sure how you want to play it, Metamorphosis makes you basically another level in this game, however without it, or if you can be locked down with it - you won't do much. I can only say what I've experienced, but as a DH I just sit dead quite literally instantly when people look at me, compared to my DK where I can still sustain myself with Death Strike (You do far less damage, and its not really as easy as it sounds, you still die quite fast without IBF cos its heal trait is strong) but I find myself being able to still live a bit when focused and hope a healer wakes up.
I see DH's doing insane damage on the scoreboards, but every time I meet DH's as a DK, perhaps its a strong counter but they can't kill me. They die, or they run, but they don't stand even a remote chance (Again, this could be a class & skill thing). I don't think I'm qualified enough to comment much, I'm a 2000 RBG player and 2000 Arena player, so my judgement is nowhere near what a proper PvP players views and opinions are on the subject of class balances and shortcomings.

edit;
As far as rogues go, in my experience they are the only really class I feel does far too much damage in a short period of time when their CDs are ready (Something blizzard clearly has stated they are against, they don't want a 1-2-3-POPCD-Win) scenario of CD stacking.

[Deleted]

Im honestly so torn about what to play next expansion atm. I hate the momentum build. I really do not think it fits in a PvE scenario. On the other hand I'd love to be able to off tank as a dh.

If they don't make a competitive more PvE fo used dos build for the dh I'm going rogue again

[Vanyali]

Im honestly so torn about what to play next expansion atm. I hate the momentum build. I really do not think it fits in a PvE scenario. On the other hand I'd love to be able to off tank as a dh.

If they don't make a competitive more PvE fo used dos build for the dh I'm going rogue again

Have you played the momentum build, or just watched?

I find it plays quite fun, though it looks like a pain in the ass and not fun at all on videos.



@ PvP talk... I think, rather, most other classes self-heal should be brought down in PvP. A snare break tied to FR would help with the "get snared and loldie" problems, I believe. But insane self-heals are dumb; no one should be able to out-heal a healer as a dps, and that should be the standard to go away from, not to.

PvP damage in general is also way untuned, as tanks are currently #1 dps and #1 healer, so it's super hard to tell what needs to change when damage is so whacky.

[Soulfròst]

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/4...loy-5-26-2016/

New build incoming!

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Have you played the momentum build, or just watched?

I find it plays quite fun, though it looks like a pain in the ass and not fun at all on videos.



@ PvP talk... I think, rather, most other classes self-heal should be brought down in PvP. A snare break tied to FR would help with the "get snared and loldie" problems, I believe. But insane self-heals are dumb; no one should be able to out-heal a healer as a dps, and that should be the standard to go away from, not to.

PvP damage in general is also way untuned, as tanks are currently #1 dps and #1 healer, so it's super hard to tell what needs to change when damage is so whacky.

I did a Vault of the Wardens run a couple nights ago and was pretty close in damage on the meters with the Vengeance tank we had, though I was ahead by a 15% or so margin if I played well and kept Momentum up effectively. Both of us were miles ahead of the other two dps. By at least double. I'm really, really hoping they bring the other classes up to where they need to be instead of bringing DHs down.

FWIW, the other two dps were a Fire Mage and I think an Unholy DK. Really can't remember if he was Frost or Unholy, though.

[Deleted]

Its really hard to compare damage on beta outside of raiding... No normalized gear, artifacts, etc.

The raid testing before with itemsynch and artifact unlocked were the best indicators, dungeons now don't say much.
On Onyxra? Or whatever the worm is called in Neltharions Lair, as a DH popping Demon Form, #1 DPS and #1 healing isnt unheard of, that CD is just too strong for any reasonable comparison in dungeons

[Vanyali]

I did a Vault of the Wardens run a couple nights ago and was pretty close in damage on the meters with the Vengeance tank we had, though I was ahead by a 15% or so margin if I played well and kept Momentum up effectively. Both of us were miles ahead of the other two dps. By at least double. I'm really, really hoping they bring the other classes up to where they need to be instead of bringing DHs down.

That's because prepared-momentum-demonic is far too broken, and vengeance DHs are absolutely bonkers in damage right now. vengeance actually does need a slight damage nerf in addition to general tuning for all classes.

[Unkhrahuun the Atoned]

I know, that's why I said "testers, jesters and even the 'bad eggs'" etc haha
But will take that advice thanks though!

what you did there, i see it now :P

[Soulfròst]

what you did there, i see it now :P

I think he added the "jesters" bit specifically for @Unanilnomen

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That's because prepared-momentum-demonic is far too broken, and vengeance DHs are absolutely bonkers in damage right now. vengeance actually does need a slight damage nerf in addition to general tuning for all classes.

I wouldn't mind a reduction in prepared-momentum-demonic performance, so long as they also adjust other talents in the tree to create another build to compete with it. Right now there's nothing else to go with that even remotely compares to the synergy, which arguably is half of a spec/build's allure to the player.

- - - Updated - - -

Its really hard to compare damage on beta outside of raiding... No normalized gear, artifacts, etc.

The raid testing before with itemsynch and artifact unlocked were the best indicators, dungeons now don't say much.
On Onyxra? Or whatever the worm is called in Neltharions Lair, as a DH popping Demon Form, #1 DPS and #1 healing isnt unheard of, that CD is just too strong for any reasonable comparison in dungeons

But it's a 5 minute cooldown. It's not even guaranteed that you'd be able to use it on every boss fight.

[Unkhrahuun the Atoned]

That's because prepared-momentum-demonic is far too broken, and vengeance DHs are absolutely bonkers in damage right now. vengeance actually does need a slight damage nerf in addition to general tuning for all classes.

I'm still surprised they separated them into 2 different rows. It kinda made sense to have them on the same row minus the fact they're both methods of opening a burst window (and the one that was considered best would ALWAYS be taken over the other) but can now be lined up for completely asinine burst since they've been separated into different rows.

Which leads me to ask: do we really need two ways to get a burst window? Not calling for a removal of either Demonic or Momentum, but it does seem a tad bit redundant, doesn't it? Couldn't Momentum be redesigned a bit to still increase your damage with the use of movement abilities but just not be a flat damage increase across the board? Gonna go ahead and plug in my idea from a million times before and say that (IMO) Momentum should be VR increases the damage of your next Fel Rush by X% or something.

[nox597]

Have you played the momentum build, or just watched?

I find it plays quite fun, though it looks like a pain in the ass and not fun at all on videos.



@ PvP talk... I think, rather, most other classes self-heal should be brought down in PvP. A snare break tied to FR would help with the "get snared and loldie" problems, I believe. But insane self-heals are dumb; no one should be able to out-heal a healer as a dps, and that should be the standard to go away from, not to.

PvP damage in general is also way untuned, as tanks are currently #1 dps and #1 healer, so it's super hard to tell what needs to change when damage is so whacky.

I especially agree with the bolded part... But I would like to see some on demand healing in PvP for DH. I know as an enhancement shaman in PvP, when down to the wire I could always Frost Shock with the freeze, Ghost Wolf behind a pillar, and throw a few heals on myself before re-engaging. It feels like DH lacks a lot of that capability; Demonic/Soul Leech is strong until you're stunlocked through the duration, and Meta can be kited/CCed for most of the duration.

It also feels a little strange that the best PvP spec is the same as the best PvE spec, for normal talents; one would think they should differ somewhat.

Does anyone think my previous suggestion for a Throw Glaive talent has merit, in the PvP talents? To better clarify,

Level 19 PvP Talent: "Leeching Throw: Throw Glaive now heals the user equal to the damage done." It could include damage from Bloodlet, as well, giving us a HoT of sorts, if it was specced into. Timing it to hit multiple targets would also be more rewarding, and tying it to our ranged skill would let us Vengeful retreat out and kite long enough to heal up a little. Right now, the best we can do is VR, kite a little, maybe Imprison the enemy and try to bandage (which would be cancelled if we have any DoTs).
@Nupomaniac If you find the rest of the class/spec to be fun, and you're not on Mythic progression, you can probably just take Nemesis and run with it, and it would still feel strong. Momentum is technically the strongest spec atm, but it's not the only one. Play it so you have fun, and you'll succeed.

[Unkhrahuun the Atoned]

I think he added the "jesters" bit specifically for @Unanilnomen

fite me IRL.

I wouldn't mind a reduction in prepared-momentum-demonic performance, so long as they also adjust other talents in the tree to create another build to compete with it. Right now there's nothing else to go with that even remotely compares to the synergy, which arguably is half of a spec/build's allure to the player.

@wordup (and myself) kinda think that removing the CD reduction from Prepared would go a long way towards balancing both it *and* Momentum, so maaaaaaaaaaaybe we'll see something of that sort. Someday.

[Soulfròst]

fite me IRL.

http://i.imgur.com/KlRmzVp.gif

This is what that would be like.

[Unkhrahuun the Atoned]

http://i.imgur.com/KlRmzVp.gif

This is what that would be like.

Them's a fighting GIF there m8. I'll rek u.

(Slapathur is always the funniest god damn thing, never fails to crack me up, kudos to you sir xD)

[Soulfròst]

Them's a fighting GIF there m8. I'll rek u.

(Slapathur is always the funniest god damn thing, never fails to crack me up, kudos to you sir xD)

If it cracked you up as much as it cracked me up the first time I saw that one, with the added text commentary on it, then you were almost on the floor.

Worth.

[Vanyali]

I especially agree with the bolded part... But I would like to see some on demand healing in PvP for DH. I know as an enhancement shaman in PvP, when down to the wire I could always Frost Shock with the freeze, Ghost Wolf behind a pillar, and throw a few heals on myself before re-engaging. It feels like DH lacks a lot of that capability; Demonic/Soul Leech is strong until you're stunlocked through the duration, and Meta can be kited/CCed for most of the duration.

It also feels a little strange that the best PvP spec is the same as the best PvE spec, for normal talents; one would think they should differ somewhat.

Does anyone think my previous suggestion for a Throw Glaive talent has merit, in the PvP talents? To better clarify,

Level 19 PvP Talent: "Leeching Throw: Throw Glaive now heals the user equal to the damage done." It could include damage from Bloodlet, as well, giving us a HoT of sorts, if it was specced into. Timing it to hit multiple targets would also be more rewarding, and tying it to our ranged skill would let us Vengeful retreat out and kite long enough to heal up a little. Right now, the best we can do is VR, kite a little, maybe Imprison the enemy and try to bandage (which would be cancelled if we have any DoTs).
@Nupomaniac If you find the rest of the class/spec to be fun, and you're not on Mythic progression, you can probably just take Nemesis and run with it, and it would still feel strong. Momentum is technically the strongest spec atm, but it's not the only one. Play it so you have fun, and you'll succeed.

I'd rather DA just change for PvP to a chance to heal for x% rather than to fling an orb; it allows them to get the heal without sacrificing position or being snared / rooted.