"We think [Elite] Players deserve better gear" - Kaivax

[Heladys]

If you do harder content you should get better gear, how is that controversial?

The sane debate lies in what that means. Better statistically? Sure of course. Unique skins? Fine. Better gear models? Meh, that sucked in WoD. Better particle effects? Okay, sure, the MoP model was good.

[Egregious]

Honestly I have a bigger issue with his statement. It is IMO WAY harder to down mythic bosses than it is to get gladiator. I mean think about the number of people involved, Mythic requires a minimum of 20 people while Gladiator requires 3 people. The fact that both of these can in legion get you the same gear is frankly insulting. It use to be that the best PVE gear you had 1 choice raiding! Now you can PVP yer way to good PVE gear... Obviously both my gladiator and mythic content are really hard. But what about a smaller scale, what about normal raiding vs PVP? Am I going to be straight required to do PVP to get an advantage at the normal/heroic level of raiding? Will my raid team require it? Probably not, but what is my DPS going to look like if I don't? Am I just going to be left in the dust and sitting the bench or holding my team back if I don't PVP...

No, I think it's very important to allow PvPers access to PvE and encourage that dynamic once again. Also, I would disagree that it's harder to kill a Mythic boss than be a gladiator. It may be harder to kill some Mythic bosses at some very aggressive world rankings than to be a gladiator... but just to kill one? No.

Again, I think it's a huge design flaw to totally segregate PvP and PvE. It creates essentially two different games with very little overlap or ease of access. Ideally, you have players of all types doing both PvP and PvE, not relegated to either specifically.

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Of course you Ike to lord over everyone else. Just be honest the challenge doesn't meant shit.

It does, it just doesn't mean everything.

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It is the ultimate form of entitlement t to suggest that another's reward be gutted so that you don't feel compelled.

Is it not the ultimate form of entitlement to demand your reward be the same or similar despite drastically less effort and far less ability required?

[Saracens]

People who run harder content already get better gear, and will continue to do so. That's fine. No need to stir up forum drama over it.

I think the thread was ended right after it started, it's explained perfectly here.

[Egregious]

I think the thread was ended right after it started, it's explained perfectly here.

Yeah, but no one listens to old people.

[manypillars]

I think the thread was ended right after it started, it's explained perfectly here.

Because his argument isn't that raiders deserve better gear, it's that the unwashed don't deserve gear at all since giving them gear inherently devalues the gear that raiders get and/or 'forces' raiders to engage in content that is 'beneath' them.

[melodramocracy]

I'm against lfr and normal + sharing set bonuses

I'm not sure it matters much. Normal + will always be stronger gear, with or w/o the bonuses. I would imagine they're doing this because there won't be a legendary item collection requirement tied to it as there has been for the past few expansions. (correct me if I'm wrong, I don't know every last detail of Legion). Hence, with none of that, Blizzard still wants to make LFR somewhat enticing to a majority of players.

[Saracens]

Yeah, but no one listens to old people.

-stare- you...

[melodramocracy]

It is the ultimate form of entitlement t to suggest that another's reward be gutted so that you don't feel compelled.

Did someone hack your MMOC login? This statement kind of goes against half the posts you've made, ever

[Aleksej89]

Greater effort = greater reward.

Blizzard should make sure that is true in all stages of Legion, so one method (pvp/raids/whatever) does not become superior.

[Egregious]

I'm not sure it matters much. Normal + will always be stronger gear, with or w/o the bonuses. I would imagine they're doing this because there won't be a legendary item collection requirement tied to it as there has been for the past few expansions. (correct me if I'm wrong, I don't know every last detail of Legion). Hence, with none of that, Blizzard still wants to make LFR somewhat enticing to a majority of players.

Are you saying that they may be adding tier again because they won't be adding a Legendary quest line tied to the instance(s)?

I mean, even if that's your argument, no other raid difficulty would be getting a Legendary either. So it's not like LFR suddenly offers less than the other raid tiers as they would all be reduced the same.

[melodramocracy]

Are you saying that they may be adding tier again because there won't be adding a Legendary quest line tied to the instance(s)?

I mean, even if that's your argument, no other raid difficulty would be getting a Legendary either. So it's not like LFR suddenly offers less than the other raid tiers as they would all be reduced the same.

Yes, that is what I'm saying.

From Blizzards perspective, they could nerf the gear from LFR in WoD and most folks ran it anyhow, simply because of legendary collection. If that goes away, and the gear stays unappealing, you wind up with queues that are terribly long, which isn't a situation Blizz would desire.

They want folks who fall outside the 'dedicated raiders' group to have a reason to run LFR, even if those players have no intention of going into normal +.

[Egregious]

Yes, that is what I'm saying.

From Blizzards perspective, they could nerf the gear from LFR in WoD and most folks ran it anyhow, simply because of legendary collection. If that goes away, and the gear stays unappealing, you wind up with queues that are terribly long, which isn't a situation Blizz would desire.

They want folks who fall outside the 'dedicated raiders' group to have a reason to run LFR, even if those players have no intention of going into normal +.

I see the incentive but I think welfare Legendaries are awful. If that was truly the only draw into LFR, then LFR will fall to the level of participation it actually should have. I don't think it would be a good idea to bandaid fix LFR with incentives to run it anticipating a decline in participation due to the removal of the welfare Legendary.

That would be funny if LFR drew a huge % of its population due to the ring and was actually a total waste.

[Sinyc]

What do you think about the recent blue post essentially saying "We think [Elite] players deserve better gear?"

Reminder --
We’re sensitive to your concerns and we’ll keep them all in mind as we settle on ilvl values for gear.

Something worth repeating --
There’s been some concern from both PvEers and PvPers that “raiders will just do Arena to get easy gear” and “gladiators will just do Mythic raids to get easy gear.” We feel it’s important to remember how challenging both types of gameplay can be. Downing Mythic bosses and earning Gladiator rating are two of the most difficult accomplishments in World of Warcraft. We think players who have demonstrated skill at those levels deserve to be rewarded with better gear.

This was a direct quote from Kaivax, a blue poster on the official forums.

Personally I agree. If people are going to spend the time and effort in that type of Raid or PvP environment, we better damn well get better gear than people clicking an "i win" button for LFR.

This is why tier bonuses and trinkets from normal and above raiding should not be in LFR at all. Why give players elite level bonuses / trinkets for janitor level performance?

What are your thoughts?

We already know this... It's true in pretty much every facet of life.

[kamuimac]

What do you think about the recent blue post essentially saying "We think [Elite] players deserve better gear?"

Reminder --
We’re sensitive to your concerns and we’ll keep them all in mind as we settle on ilvl values for gear.

Something worth repeating --
There’s been some concern from both PvEers and PvPers that “raiders will just do Arena to get easy gear” and “gladiators will just do Mythic raids to get easy gear.” We feel it’s important to remember how challenging both types of gameplay can be. Downing Mythic bosses and earning Gladiator rating are two of the most difficult accomplishments in World of Warcraft. We think players who have demonstrated skill at those levels deserve to be rewarded with better gear.

This was a direct quote from Kaivax, a blue poster on the official forums.

Personally I agree. If people are going to spend the time and effort in that type of Raid or PvP environment, we better damn well get better gear than people clicking an "i win" button for LFR.

This is why tier bonuses and trinkets from normal and above raiding should not be in LFR at all. Why give players elite level bonuses / trinkets for janitor level performance?

What are your thoughts?

computer says ... no

and so does blizzard

so be a good boy and shut the f... up and do your weekly lfrs

[OreoLover]

That's a terrible response. Poor attitudes and behavior on the part of the upper crust of the raiding community ought not to be the determining or any factor in design.

Agreed, but it was the response warranted to someone who won't budge. :| And even more importantly, a response in line with his thoughts: pointless, emotional.

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If I am forced to entertain that farce of a difficulty they deem "raiding" simply because they have a stimulus program to get halfway decent raiders there, then I will let all those people for whom it is intended carry me as opposed to carry them.

Your economy-linked comparisons are not pertinent. Your attitude and method border on farce. To imagine that there aren't halfway decent raiders in LFR is laughable. Obviously we are the minority, but we do not corrupt the system as you would; we elevate it.

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I can tell you from experience... I don't enjoy the fact that the opportunities are present which forced me to raid 50+ hours a week at content launch. Having more of them is not welcome and not something most elite raiders want to be doing.

An "elite raider" can make time for this, or not be bothered by the negligible difference for a short period of time. EDIT: On valor or continued grinds that are not replaceable, those are valid concerns.

[Egregious]

Agreed, but it was the response warranted to someone who won't budge. :| And even more importantly, a response in line with his thoughts: pointless, emotional.

Just because you don't agree with my thoughts doesn't make them pointless. And I would argue humorous as opposed to emotional, but that's just me.

Your economy-linked comparisons are not pertinent. Your attitude and method border on farce. To imagine that there aren't halfway decent raiders in LFR is laughable. Obviously we are the minority, but we do not corrupt the system as you would; we elevate it.

Who said there weren't halfway decent raiders in LFR? All I said is that it's infested with mouth-breathers and mongoloids, which it is. Hell, there are even diamonds if you'd enjoy sifting through that cesspool.

The only thing farcical here is what you're assuming about me.

Lastly, you would disagree that they try to find ways to encourage players in other difficulties from entering into LFR?

"An "elite raider" can make time for this, or not be bothered by the negligible difference for a short period of time. EDIT: On valor or continued grinds that are not replaceable, those are valid concerns.

Well then if you want to be a petulant child about it, I'll argue that you should be forced to raid an actual difficulty if you want actual epics. I shouldn't be made to, or even encouraged, to raid your difficulty. It is literally beneath me.

Raiding is a game of negligible improvements. Don't even try to begin that argument.

[Glorious Leader]

Yes, that is what I'm saying.

From Blizzards perspective, they could nerf the gear from LFR in WoD and most folks ran it anyhow, simply because of legendary collection. If that goes away, and the gear stays unappealing, you wind up with queues that are terribly long, which isn't a situation Blizz would desire.

They want folks who fall outside the 'dedicated raiders' group to have a reason to run LFR, even if those players have no intention of going into normal +.

Uhh no most folks didn't run it anyhow. Que times sky rocketed as the expansion went on. It was do bad they added valor.

[Egregious]

**Well I meant to have this in my old post but something happened.

*Edit: Blizzard is desperately trying to find ways to stop split runs and you think that mentality and the mentality of having Normal+ set bonuses in LFR isn't a part of the same philosophy?

[MoanaLisa]

Kaivax's statement doesn't represent any great change from the past so I can't imagine why it's much worthy of comment now. The only thing I would say about it is that trading time for skill should be something developers should think about. The skilled player can obtain something much quicker than someone less skilled and there's nothing at all wrong with that.

On the other hand, I don't think there's anything necessarily anything wrong with a less-skilled player obtaining the same item if it takes much, much longer. Those kinds of things are difficult to set up but to do otherwise is to deliberately start sorting players into specific silos and encourage the sort of mindless chest-beating that the forums are already rife with. The game already does more of that than is actually healthy.

[Glorious Leader]

. It is literally beneath me.

.

So right now if you look down you see lfr underneath you? Are you like plugged into the matrix? Or do you have a floor made of monitors that constantly show lfr?