"Basic Income" is a terrible idea

[Tyrianth]

There is not a finite number of jobs in the world, other than the basic population figures. You act as if no person will want to hire these people because, well, every job on the planet is already filled. You lack even a basic understanding of the economy. Your teachers should be fired.

I was wrong about the number of cashiers. That kind of amazes me, in this day and age, that there are so many. But, it matters little since there are unlimited jobs in the world.

You can't be serious? You think that their infinite jobs out there? We ALREADY have more people than we do jobs.

Or do you think digging holes all day and filling them up again is a job?

[Shadowmelded]

Correct, I am not saying it is bad. I am just finding it humorous that people are so stuck on concepts as if they are some unchangeable universal law. All of these concepts were created by us, and can be changed by us as time and necessity require.

It'll be hard to unwind the protestant work ethic dogma.

[Villager720]

Go with me here:

What if based on a percentage of corporate profit shares over a 5 year period, wages for all employees had to be raised collectively.
Example: If McDonald's profits rose by an average of 8% over 5 years, all employee wages must be increased by 1/4 of that, or 2%. This alleviates the government from having to enforce minimum wages on companies that can't afford it, incentivizes all workers to try and improve the company, and doesn't let corporations hoard all their profits (which is why we're in this mess at the moment).

What if a company doesn't make profits? Then no raises. How's that different than a company in the toilet now not raising wages?

[Rakoth]

I think the root issue with this is how you identify what is "low skill".

Go back a couple hundred years, and knowing basic grade 8 arithmetic so you could do sums as a cashier was a skilled position. Being able to read and write was a notable skill. The "low skill" jobs were brute labor and the like. As machines became better at doing those brute jobs, and we implemented public education, the floor of "no skill" moved up to the high-school-diploma minimum we see today. We may be on the cusp of an era where a "no skill" job requires a baccalaureate level of training, but that doesn't mean there will necessarily be less jobs. For the same reasons that there weren't, when those brute labor jobs got replaced with machinery. It just means the workforce gets progressively more and more skilled, by default. Society progresses.

This isn't something to be feared. It is something to be prepared for.

I see what you are saying, but the reason I don't agree is because of advances in A.I. not just robotics. We are at a cusp, where an A.I. will be able to learn. We will simply tell it to do a task, and it will learn that task. Right now, A.I.s are super specialized, but the advances are staggering. When deep blue beat the world's best chess player, they predicted it would be decades before A.I. could take on a harder game. When the A.I. won at Jeoperdy, we predicted it would be another few decades before it could play a decent game of "GO" (a very complex game to master). It took a few years, but AlphaGO has just beaten the world's best player and been elevated to "divine" levels.

The capabilities of A.I. are no longer growing linearly, they are growing exponentially. There is even an A.I. Laywer.
http://www.techinsider.io/the-worlds...s-hired-2016-5

I welcome the change, but I do not think our society (especially the U.S.) is ready. A socialist leaning democracy will be ready to take care of it's people with safety nets. One without will see mass unemployment.

[Glorious Leader]

It'll be hard to unwind the protestant work ethic dogma.

People can still do things it's just they will now have free time to do things that matter. Raise their kids, spend time with loved ones, try to understand the deep mysteries of the universe and of inner self. They will have free time to do things that matter. Perhaps most importantly they will now have real freedom. Freedom to not have a boss.

[Dextroden]

Quick thing. I remember people comparing this to the electric typewriter putting people out of print and it was minor.

The "typewriters" being developed now don't need typists. And, in some cases, are capable of coming up with stories to type with zero outside input. Did anyone think about that part of it?

How about everyone's answer being education? Great! A basic college degree will become a high school diploma and some definite field bloat should follow that. What with more and more fields that will eventually be thinned out.

People focus on fast food and retail robots while forgetting a solid enough ai can wipe out cubicle farms.

[Theinquisition]

So the $17.50/hr and on up looks like you need training. I take it that P&C mean Property and Casualty Insurance? So it has something to do with selling Insurance?

So I guess a potential employee would need to spend for the money for the classes. I'm too lazy to look it up, but I'm sure its not exorbitant amount.

I ask you why do you think these jobs are not being filled? Sales jobs are hard to fill, my opinion.

Actually you're wrong.

The company pays for the licensing exam, the training, and the license itself. typically we spend 3k on a new hire, and that's just on the licensing. You're also getting paid while your training.

the test is no joke, 50% failure rate.

the sales themselves are not hard to make, people come to you for the product, you're not calling anyone or approaching anyone.

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You're right, we do adapt. The only difference is I'm actually putting forward an idea on how we adapt. You just keep spouting out that we'll adapt without offering anything further.

I would rather our politicans work to mitigate any potential damage before it actually happens. I don't like burying my head in sand.

If you don't want to go in circles then offer me something with actual substance.

I'm saying that the Free market labor demand will adapt as it always has.

[Mormolyce]

Have you ever seen how much money the government thinks a basic income is?

If you're the kind of person who will work harder if it will earn them a decent wage, you will still have plenty of motivation.

[Rakoth]

I agree; But as people in the US learn that protectionism is not going to get them back to the 1950's, maybe we can emulate Canada instead. Which does have a leader and government that seem to know why Basic Income will be a necessity down the road.

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Yes, freedom to explore, freedom to learn something they had no time for before, finish a book, start an art project, do Weight Lifting, Yoga, Meditation... etc... all the things people "want" to do, but have no time for.

I happen to be French Canadian, the most socialist leaning province in Canada. I also went to school at (both) Trudeau's alma mater. We are taught at a young age that we are receiving the finest education, and through it, we have a duty to the society that allowed it for us. We are responsible for making the world a better place.

I myself work in education software, where I try to make education more engaging and effective. I also make a decent living, and I never have resented paying taxes. Taxes is the other way I give back to those who didn't have the opportunities I was fortunate enough to have.

I am a socialist leaning person, because I have more then enough money, and I think trust the gov to do much more then I can individually to elevate others out of poverty.

[Tijuana]

You can't be serious? You think that their infinite jobs out there? We ALREADY have more people than we do jobs.

Or do you think digging holes all day and filling them up again is a job?

Yes, we have ~5% too many people vs jobs at the moment, in the US. But, for one it's not always the same people, as they become employed and unemployed every day across the planet. What you propose, is that this is the most jobs we will ever have. Your notion that jobs are a finite number, free of any outside influence, is just ridiculous on a massive level. However, if you really do think that, I can see how automation would super scare you. But again, I point to the industrial revolution, which changed the world on a scale that could never be replicated, and everything turned out fine.

[Glorious Leader]

I agree; But as people in the US learn that protectionism is not going to get them back to the 1950's, maybe we can emulate Canada instead. Which does have a leader and government that seem to know why Basic Income will be a necessity down the road.

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Yes, freedom to explore, freedom to learn something they had no time for before, finish a book, start an art project, do Weight Lifting, Yoga, Meditation... etc... all the things people "want" to do, but have no time for.

Hell yea dawg. More time to lift. I want to live in that world.

[Chrysia]

I view a basic income as exactly that. It pays your bare necessity expenditures. Rent. Utilities, and Food. Not your car, not your phone, not your clothes, not your TV, not your video games.

In NJ, that could be a basic income of $700-900 a month pending on the neighborhood you live in. If you want anything besides just staring at a wall, eating small meals, and sleeping on the floor. Then you need to get a job.

Clothes and phone are absolutely a necessity, as long as we're talking basic stuff. You won't get a job if you can't get a callback, or if you're naked.

[Glorious Leader]

*nod* I like Canada, and where I live, California, we are more "socialist" than most of the rest of the country. The best label that conveys my politics is actually "Left Libertarian" or "Anarcho-Socialist. @Yvaelle and I pretty much have the most similar political beliefs of all other posts on here. He is also Canadian... hehe.

From Canada myself and also consider my views economic and political as part of a wider socialist anarchist movement. The elimination of wage slavery and hierarchy.

[enak101]

Automation happens, more jobs are taken over by software and robots and computers
Businesses make same/more money because of this
General population makes less since less people have jobs now

and people don't want to give these people money???

Solution

Take more money from these businesses through taxes (hey its no big deal, its just tax instead of paying their employees directly)

This is a super basic outlook of my opinion, theres obviously way more to it, like how to actually deal with the sheer amount of money needed (its trillions right? if talking America.)
But as someone said, this hasn't happened in society before and we aren't prepared for it, it just seems really easy to understand in my own mind, if automation is taking away jobs, well then maybe not everyone should work, unless we are just gonna create even more bullshit jobs. This is already in effect where businesses are basically paying people their income to sit in an office 8 hours a day looking at reddit lol (exaggeration I know..kinda..), this is for many reasons but stats are a big part of it, number of employees for different brackets and such, I'm a bit ignorant on the details to be honest.

This is still someway down the track anyway, but could happen sooner than we think, we are in a very awkward transition period at the moment, where the underemployed is a way bigger issue than most people think.

I'll just add as well, people will love to say there's plenty of jobs around, until its their job that is suddenly being replaced by cheaper and better machines.

[Shadowmelded]

People can still do things it's just they will now have free time to do things that matter. Raise their kids, spend time with loved ones, try to understand the deep mysteries of the universe and of inner self. They will have free time to do things that matter. Perhaps most importantly they will now have real freedom. Freedom to not have a boss.

Oh yeah I'm totally on board with UBI but the protestant work ethic has been ingrained into Western society for centuries now. It'll be hard to undo that although it is changing gradually. The biggest problem is the idea that people are 'getting something for nothing' and one interesting way to counter that I've heard (might have been Varoufakis on UBI) is to phrase it as a "Citizen's Dividend".

[melodramocracy]

Works just fine in Star Trek.

So do tribbles, but we don't have any of those here either.

[timberx]

Because, you make it sound like this "Mincome" system is amazing. It's not amazing. It raises taxes on people who actually want to better themselves, while once again giving people who don't want to work, another reason, not to work.

The people trying to better themselves will still have much more than those who choose to not work.

[Theinquisition]

Doing what precisely?

Tellers? Going out the door now.

Financial advisors? You're next out the door.

Well the insurance industry is doing pretty well.

Worst case scenario for me, I go back to being a helicopter mechanic making almost what I make now. got my A&P while in the service.

adapt, overcome.

[Deleted]

i don't know but i think good positive of UBI when some if not most people might cut full time into part time to earn same as full time job and more free time to do thing study, hobbies, more time with family or whatever but also open part time job available to other people.

[Deleted]

Yeah, this is an interesting election for me... I do not like Trump, and I do not like Clinton. And Bernie is not going to get the nomination, but I voted for him anyway in my Mail in Ballot in CA. So my choice this year is going to be either voting for the Joker, or Two Face. At least Two-face is sane 50% of the time.

I have been considering Gary Johnson.

Libertarian Funding and Registration Seeing HUGE Spike
http://www.redstate.com/brandon_mors...ng-huge-spike/

For the last year the Libertarian Party would get about 100 new members a month. Then, starting in January...

Gary Johnson is a complete fraud, why anyone would consider voting for him is beyond me.