[Legion] Shadow Priest Discussion

[Ilir]

@Kretan : It was just a friendly shade Don't read too much into it, I have nothing against you and your absolute optimism, it's refreshing actually to have both

Why am I so against it ? Lemme think.

We have voidform, during voidform you get a lot of haste. With lot of haste, you have your main damage/insanity generation spells having their cd reduced heavily. Those spell basically force you to use them when they are up because that's how the playstyle is intended to be.

Now, for some unknown reason, they decided to give us a talent that makes our filler deal more damage (stacking) and said buff lasts for a few second... making you wanna keep it up. Now, that's all great except during high voidform stacks (and especially during execute) you don't have really much time to cast a filler. Then you add in the 4p... making you want to use VB a lot. It is bad design, it goes totally against the core gameplay of the class. It is a stupid talent.

Now Mindspike.... it's the same deal, during high stack you'll barely have the time to cast the damn spell. They put a stacking on it which is totally contrary to how the class was designed to be during voidform. How can you not see it ? I'd rather have them buff the talent and remove the stack mechanic because it is the dumbest thing ever.

I'd be okay with Voidray if Void Bolt, Void Torrent and Mindblast refreshed the duration of the buff (not adding stacks, just preventing the buff from falling off). Because as it currently stands, it's so poorly implemented.

Lemme just say that : the LotV change is retarded. Voidray needs to be tweaked further/replaced. Mind Spike I can live with.

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Why would I reduce my ST dps just so I can do more damage on adds that will be destroyed so fast by our aoe masters DH/warriors. Tho I see mind spike being good in a council type of fight (up until you can't cast it anymore and I'd rather pick stm on a council fight because those +200% dot damage along with our crazy haste will deal so much damage).

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Anyway, I'm gonna wait for numbers before completely hating on Mind Spike. I think it's the least of our issue atm. And yes, I do agree that it is a change in the right direction for this talent, i'm not completely ignoring the devs trying to make it appealing. It's just not there yet for me.

[l33t]

Rofl@nerfing LotV. Stay classy Blizztards.

Well, from where I am sitting, it looks like a major change in our gameplay department. Whole WoD we were playing with one crappy last talent. In Legion we would be playing without last talent, because everyone would just take Surrender to Memeness and maybe use it once per day somewhere, raids aside. What a change guys, what a change.

Anyways, is character copy available on beta?

[Annesh]

Can we talk about this idea Nerity just posted in the beta thread? It's an idea I think has been floating around for a while now but hasn't really gotten any traction.

The best idea would be if Mind Sear assaulted the mind of the target, dealing the damage of your dots on the main target to all targets within range.

Can anyone find any problems with this implementation? Cause I can't. It dodges both the primary problems with most of peoples' suggestions:

"Spreading dots is OP because mechanics"

This isn't actually spreading dots. You don't get extra SI procs, infinite amounts of insanity, etc.

"We can't let Mind Sear be used single target"

You won't use it singletarget because it'll deal basically no damage. You might start using it at 3 targets - that seems perfect for a spell designed to do AoE.

The only real trouble I see is in tuning the exact timing of when it ticks. For example, it can't be a thing where "as long as you are channeling mind sear, anytime your dot ticks it deals damage to all targets," because that encourages really awkward .5 second mind sear channels and is very vulnerable to latency and such. But it can't tick every second because then it's worth more damage than your dots actually do.

So yeah, the very nitty-gritty specifics are a bit fiddly, but I think it's worth trying.

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Another thought I've just had is to give Shadow a third dot.

Wait, just hear me out. So the characteristic of dot-spreader classes that people seem to miss is that the dots that are spreadable don't actually do anything other than just deal damage.

Corruption, Immolate, DK diseases, Pyro/Ignite, etc. These things don't heal, add Soul Shards, or do anything else. They just do damage. That's most likely THE reason Blizz has been so reluctant about giving us a dot spreader, because both our dots actually do things other than damage.

So if we added a third dot that had no purpose other than to deal damage and be spreadable through a talent, I think that would help a lot. It would likely be pretty long duration, deal moderate damage, and not be refreshed with Void Bolt.

What do you jerks think?

[Ilir]

i like the idea of mind sear dealing the damage of our dots on all targets. we had a trait that kinda worked like that but it required every target to be dotted.

It synergizes well with our spec (mass hysteria = more dot damage = more aoe with this change and more haste = more ticks etc).

having a dot that spreads isn't really needed because : if you want burst aoe (which we clearly lack) it won't help. if it's for long living adds => our multidots is already pretty strong so having another dot on top of it will feel weird.

[Greatpippon]

I must say I'm really happy with the changes. It seems we now have a cleave option, and we may be leaning towards a sustained aoe option with MSear+VR. Once we'll have SC buffed we may even be somewhat useful in burst aoe with Spike. I don't care if we have to delay MB if the main issue of a fight is bursting down adds (especially during early progression), and it will be a non-issue once an off target is at hand. But mostly, I'm happy with the diversity of play styles that the developers are trying to offer (regardless of DPS balance, for the time being).

Hovewer
- I think they need to buff the duration on VR, since its impossible right now to refresh after VoidTorrent. 5 seconds duration will do for example.
- I'm still trying to understand the nerf to LotV. Maybe they foresee issues with 4P T14?
- One problem I see is the damage of the fillers with VR. MSear, MSpike and MF are tied together, likely with MSear having at most half the DPET of MF. I would love MF and consequently MSear to be buffed, but the DPET of SWP forces a low bound to MF damage under VR. It may be very difficult to balance in a heavy mastery build, and we may face a SWP-less rotation in single target. I don't mind it per se as an option, but I fear a COPROW situation where mastery stacking and VR will be the only option. Either they keep MF at very low damage (which implies that MSear will be low as well), or they rework our mastery in order to not double-dip with VR (maybe more resource-oriented?).

[Scottokemon]

I'm just watching the FinalBossTV video and he is saying that mastery will be our best stat in Legion. Reading through this thread I was under the impression that mastery would be junk. What's behind the differing opinions on this stat?

Also noticed that the text saying that fear bomb replaces psychic scream has gone. Does that mean we get to keep psychic scream when we spec into mind bomb now?

[Darth-Piekus]

Dissapointed with the changes. Not only Mindspike does very low damage but by the time you reach 10 stacks or even 5 stacks to hit with a Mindblast the mobs will be either dead or the damage that the 10 similtaneous spikes do will probably be done by the other classes two times already.

[Ilir]

I must say I'm really happy with the changes. It seems we now have a cleave option, and we may be leaning towards a sustained aoe option with MSear+VR. Once we'll have SC buffed we may even be somewhat useful in burst aoe with Spike. I don't care if we have to delay MB if the main issue of a fight is bursting down adds (especially during early progression), and it will be a non-issue once an off target is at hand. But mostly, I'm happy with the diversity of play styles that the developers are trying to offer (regardless of DPS balance, for the time being).

Hovewer
- I think they need to buff the duration on VR, since its impossible right now to refresh after VoidTorrent. 5 seconds duration will do for example.
- I'm still trying to understand the nerf to LotV. Maybe they foresee issues with 4P T14?
- One problem I see is the damage of the fillers with VR. MSear, MSpike and MF are tied together, likely with MSear having at most half the DPET of MF. I would love MF and consequently MSear to be buffed, but the DPET of SWP forces a low bound to MF damage under VR. It may be very difficult to balance in a heavy mastery build, and we may face a SWP-less rotation in single target. I don't mind it per se as an option, but I fear a COPROW situation where mastery stacking and VR will be the only option. Either they keep MF at very low damage (which implies that MSear will be low as well), or they rework our mastery in order to not double-dip with VR (maybe more resource-oriented?).

But why ? big packs of mobs to aoe down will prolly get killed easily by all the aoe other classes provide. Why gimp yourself with a clunky build when you can go pure into dps mode (StM) ? Same for multidot fight (councils)... you'll be better off using StM since you'll be able to maintain dots on 3 targets guaranteed and you'll have a lot of insanity if you have the 2p... + 200% increased dot damage with more than 110% haste...
Unless you want to stack those mindspikes just before an add pack spawns (which basically makes you waste a lot of ST damage)... I guess it can be useful if you lack the aoe damage.

Imo the change to MS is the best for mythic dungeon trash i'd say because those will live relatively long so multidotting is relevant and you won't be using StM for trash anyway.

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Also, you need to use mind sear first to get 5 stacks of VR then use Mindspike... but you also need to keep your dots up on the targets and refresh with VB. Unless you're deciding not to dot and not benefit from mass hysteria and our weak as fuck SoI.

[Nycros]

Also noticed that the text saying that fear bomb replaces psychic scream has gone. Does that mean we get to keep psychic scream when we spec into mind bomb now?

I noticed that too. I think it's just a tooltip error, but even if it doesn't replace scream it's not as good as it sounds with such a short stun duration... plus scream would be a 60sec CD.

[Theed]

I noticed that too. I think it's just a tooltip error, but even if it doesn't replace scream it's not as good as it sounds with such a short stun duration... plus scream would be a 60sec CD.

It still does replace PS. If it would not replace it I would be really happy. It is a 4 second stun on beta realms right now. Not sure if it is a bug.

[Rooskie1993]

I still can't put my head around why people are taking Surrender to Madness, like I can understand taking it at a certain gear level or something but like being dead for 3 minutes in a fight especially during progression like really is it that big of a dps gain when you're dead for that long and even if you continue in the fight there might not be rez available to get you up.

[Xcuse]

I still can't put my head around why people are taking Surrender to Madness, like I can understand taking it at a certain gear level or something but like being dead for 3 minutes in a fight especially during progression like really is it that big of a dps gain when you're dead for that long and even if you continue in the fight there might not be rez available to get you up.

Hum.... you use it with the boss <35% or something when you know / expect the fight to last as long as you will be able to survive with StM on. Therefore, best case scenario, you die just as the boss dies.
You don't use it on the pull unless you need to really really push the next phase as soon as possible (for example if you're progressing and want to see the next phase and it's mechanics).

[Nihiel]

As mentioned above, you obviously won't pop it just to kill yourself shortly into the fight - unless there's any particular reason like pushing a phase during progression etc.
Shadow has been allowed to keep its execute niche, and StM is essentially a significantly buffed up execute talent with the added flexibility that you can use it whenever you want, rather than being exclusively execute.

[RsinRC]

I feel these changes are, at the least, a step in the right direction.

We got a bit of cleave with MS.
My feelings on MS is unclear. Up until choosing MS the whole process is gaining insanity asap. How will we take advantage of getting a 10 stack when MB gives so much wanted Insanity. Do I really have to stack them on a secondary target by default? I feel like they should allow MS stacks only be activated after the 10th stack if they do decide to keep it that high.

Void Ray's idea of buffing our filler is pretty cool actually. There is a problem though. It's duration feels counter-intuitive. At the start is where it sorta shines but after my first VT the buff is gone. Is it really that strong that i can have it drop? It isnt something that is attractive to me to have a buff drop that i want to keep up. Also on high haste points, I notice I use MF less and less. The talent at this point becomes useless. Am I missing something?

I actually like Mind Bomb now with its new mechanic. It feels like a dot that stuns. Im wit' it. Can time burts even easier now.

LotV. No comment yet. I think its a pvp thing, tbh.

[Nycros]

It still does replace PS. If it would not replace it I would be really happy. It is a 4 second stun on beta realms right now. Not sure if it is a bug.

Oh I thought it was 2 second stun. Would be good then if we got both bomb and scream, but yeah...

I read your post on beta forums, agree that it's been very stagnant in the PvP space. I think that's because they've put most of their focus into the 100-110 phase and dungeons, with more focus on PvP and other parts of the game coming soon.

As you said, they have given themselves levers to tune PvP separately to PvE... and they haven't forgotten about them. Problem is they're getting a bit close on release time, but then that's the way developers have to work.

Anyway, I'd rather be pushing for DR right now. It's all we really need. #bringbackfade

[Ilir]

I still can't put my head around why people are taking Surrender to Madness, like I can understand taking it at a certain gear level or something but like being dead for 3 minutes in a fight especially during progression like really is it that big of a dps gain when you're dead for that long and even if you continue in the fight there might not be rez available to get you up.

You missed the point of the talent. It's one of the most powerful CD in the entire game.

[l33t]

You missed the point of the talent. It's one of the most powerful CD in the entire game.

He is kinda right tho. Nobody in their mind would use this in early progression, when you don't know how long your fight will be and the whole fight is not memorized in your muscular memory. It is near useless in solo play as well, and I seriously doubt you'll be using it more than twice per dungeon run.

I still hope blizzard will cease being retards and would cancel at least the 3 min rez debuff if your group is out of combat. (Ideally I'd love to not have to die if we defeat our target before VF ends, but knowing how Blizzard usually does things that's simply unrealistic to hope for.)

While the ability itself is cool and it is possibly the most powerful CD out there, it has a VERY limited uses, sadly.

[Ilir]

He is kinda right tho. Nobody in their mind would use this in early progression, when you don't know how long your fight will be and the whole fight is not memorized in your muscular memory. It is near useless in solo play as well, and I seriously doubt you'll be using it more than twice per dungeon run.

I still hope blizzard will cease being retards and would cancel at least the 3 min rez debuff if your group is out of combat. (Ideally I'd love to not have to die if we defeat our target before VF ends, but knowing how Blizzard usually does things that's simply unrealistic to hope for.)

Oh, i don't disagree with the dying part being dumb. But I was just saying that the talent is strong when it can be used properly.

I'm a strong advocate of making it remove the dying part if you kill the boss (aka get out of combat).

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Or they can make an exhaustion effect like : you don't generate insanity/can't trigger VF for a certain period of time. It'll still require us to use it intelligently because everyone knows how shitty it feels to be stuck outside of VF.

[l33t]

Oh, i don't disagree with the dying part being dumb. But I was just saying that the talent is strong when it can be used properly.

I'm a strong advocate of making it remove the dying part if you kill the boss (aka get out of combat).

Yeah, that talent will be a king when farming bosses, that's for sure

StM aside, I'd love to finally have character copy enabled for the beta, damn it

[Kretan]

It still does replace PS. If it would not replace it I would be really happy. It is a 4 second stun on beta realms right now. Not sure if it is a bug.

If it was either a 4 second instant AOE stun that did replace PS or a 2 second stun that did not replace PS, I think that would be pretty damn good. A 2 second stun that replaces PS is total crap lol.

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I feel these changes are, at the least, a step in the right direction.

We got a bit of cleave with MS.
My feelings on MS is unclear. Up until choosing MS the whole process is gaining insanity asap. How will we take advantage of getting a 10 stack when MB gives so much wanted Insanity. Do I really have to stack them on a secondary target by default? I feel like they should allow MS stacks only be activated after the 10th stack if they do decide to keep it that high.

Void Ray's idea of buffing our filler is pretty cool actually. There is a problem though. It's duration feels counter-intuitive. At the start is where it sorta shines but after my first VT the buff is gone. Is it really that strong that i can have it drop? It isnt something that is attractive to me to have a buff drop that i want to keep up. Also on high haste points, I notice I use MF less and less. The talent at this point becomes useless. Am I missing something?

I actually like Mind Bomb now with its new mechanic. It feels like a dot that stuns. Im wit' it. Can time burts even easier now.

LotV. No comment yet. I think its a pvp thing, tbh.

I think that mind spike is mostly meant to be a passive cleave, and it essentially just makes your filler aoe to hit everything rather than single target....it's basically AOE mind flay with this change since 100% of damage is cleaved to additional targets. I think the 10 stack thing makes at least a tiny sense now with this change because there is potential to bank up mind blast charges while you spam mind spike waiting for a pack of adds...then when the adds come you get a 10 mind spike explosion spike of AOE burst.

I think that only allowing activation on the 10th step would be a nerf honestly. It allows you to blow up stacks early rather than blowing up after 10 stacks and things are already dead imo.

I think void ray should be the duration of void torrent + the cast time of mind spike with zero haste at minimum.

That could be a good point on LoTV change being rooted in pvp.....although for the life of me I can't understand why that would be needed...