A guild I was in for seven years disbanded today

[tmkai]

They weren't the ones that started the shit storms. Both Guilds broke up specifically by the Women leading the charge. The guys were just chilling until they started the shit. Both times until the Women started the exodus of leaving the Guild everyone else was still fine with raiding.

And guess what, the men were right at it, with following up on that. Really, sorry that I go off on your post, but man, the level of sexism and ignorance for the participation of men in all of this...

Guys please, dont see yourself as helpless victims of those cruel cruel women, who only want to devour your souls. They dont. They are just as you are, but female. Thats all there is to differ. Only because you dont get to experience all the idiots of men regarding relationships, it doesnt mean women dont have to deal with the same cruel cruel men.

And to respond to Vaelorian: You might be right, that due the enviroment of gaming, there is a specific type of women more representet that starts a lot of drame, but just dont isolate the participation of men in all this drama. Those men in charge enable this behaviour and are just as guilty on their own. Cuddos to you, for deflecting all those problems for your raid.

[Bodom]

Sort of happened.

Girl joined the guild, had a decent application and decent gear, no logs though. Played a healer, was bad at it, officers tried to talk to her about it and the class leader made suggestions. No improvement. Had a hard time getting enough sign ups for progress so we kinda had to run with her so they suggested she started collecting dps gear instead which she did. Was pretty bad at dps too and when we recruited a few decent players she agreed to become a social instead of a raider. As a social she would log on ventrilo and chat about her day while we were raiding, a few of the guys enjoyed that, cleavage pictures were posted on the irl picture thread on forums. Talked about her sex life in trade chat. Hooked up with an officer too. Fast forward a few weeks she had left the guild and raided with someone else and had improved her gear quite a bit. She applied again. On the officer forums her boyfriend convinced the majority to accept her again because she was apparently a better player now, he promised. Took her to a raid and she did decent dps on patchwerk fight. They were convinced and accepted her. A few of us had our doubts. Started progressing on harder bosses shortly after that, she couldn't handle sticking to tactics and doing good dps at the same time. Tried to give some constructive feedback, was ignored, tried to say it in raid chat as well, got told to shut it for dps whoring because I was usually in the top 3 on every attempt, said I followed tactics perfectly fine and rarely made mistakes and explained how, was told it was just because I was better geared, told them she still did half the dps of the second lowest person while not being able to follow the tactics properly and that what she did had nothing to do with me. Got told to keep quiet, so I did. Lots of bad mood after that.

Guild didn't fall apart, but she stayed and the people who saw the truth and wasn't swayed by her personality got increasingly fed up. Shitty server too so I didn't really have anywhere else to go as I didn't want to transfer and the guild had many of my best friends in it anyway so I just had to try to get over it. Eventually though the core officers decided they wanted to make the guild a 10 man guild instead because we usually had 10-15 really good players carrying the others without asking anyone first, not even the good players they wanted to keep. So we left and the guild died.

[Deleted]

We have a strict sausage fest policy. And our guild motto is, Eurovision song contest - when gay porn simply won't cut it. It's the way it has been since 2006.

[Pandragon]

ill never understand how this happens. never understand why guys flip out so much when they find out someones a female. ive been in a lot of guilds with females, and i pretty much ignore them.

[Bodom]

People have this all wrong.

This is not the fault of the women, not in the slightest and I'm not saying this because I want to pretend they're all saints or are innocent creatures that can do no harm, hell no there are plenty of vile women out there or the types that will abuse the certain fact that they are desired.

Desired.

That is what it comes down to. When your guild is full with men that don't know how to handle their own desires, wether it's about raidloot, women, gold, or anything else -that- is when you'll run into the trouble. It's not the women's fault they are 'desired', it's the fault of the men that aren't keeping their emotions in check, aren't being rational or reasonable with how they approach the object they covert, and this can be anything.

There are just as many stories of guilds falling apart because of lootdrama, because of 'title and rank' drama (eg. Dude B really wanted to be raidleader bla bla), than there are stories of women supposedly having caused guilds to fall apart.

Make sure your guild isn't full with inexperienced basement dwellers (read: young guys still living at home with their parents) and you won't have any issues with women whatsoever. In my WoW I'm surrounded by women, women from 13/13M guilds, women with their own (popular) streams, women that are desired by many men, and there is just one little constant here: The grown up men are never caught in drama with any of those women. It's always the younger kids, it's always the inexperienced dudes.


Guilds with sausage fest rules are childish guilds that most likely will have a higher chance of falling apart because of other forms of drama anyway. Grow up, become experienced with women. I know so many RL couples now that met because of WoW, that got married, got chidren, etc. and not a single bit of drama around it.

You are 100% correct. If you read my post it was never -her- fault, it was the guys, it was always the guys. These boys are easily manipulated and I can't blame girls for taking advantage of that. This game is full of inexperienced young men that will do anything to please the opposite sex, and it is these guys who are making the guilds fall apart.

Edit: Not even at that time did I blame her, I blamed the ones who accepted her, the ones who didn't have the guts to do what they would have done with anyone else which would be to fail the trial, kick/demote her. Not all players are good, but because she managed to get their attention like she did they couldn't do it, and that's what pissed me off. Not being able to get rid of someone who is holding us back and is an annoyance to many in the guild simply because they want the girl to like them. Meh.

[Raiju]

You are 100% correct. If you read my post it was never -her- fault, it was the guys, it was always the guys. These boys are easily manipulated and I can't blame girls for taking advantage of that. This game is full of inexperienced young men that will do anything to please the opposite sex, and it is these guys who are making the guilds fall apart.

Edit: Not even at that time did I blame her, I blamed the ones who accepted her, the ones who didn't have the guts to do what they would have done with anyone else which would be to fail the trial, kick/demote her. Not all players are good, but because she managed to get their attention like she did they couldn't do it, and that's what pissed me off. Not being able to get rid of someone who is holding us back and is an annoyance to many in the guild simply because they want the girl to like them. Meh.

It's easy for me to take advantage of people but if shit goes down for it I am most certainly responsible. Having tits does not negate that and an example of exactly the sort of thinking that causes these issues.

They're both to blame. To even try to argue otherwise is ridiculous.

To clarify I'm not a girl, but it's easy to take advantage of people in other ways.

[Rafoel]

I didn't even know there are things like social players. This is the first time I've ever heard this.

There is (or was) such thing... players that don't want to do anything serious in the game (the true casuals) but enjoy a chat where they can talk with people while playing.

[Bodom]

It's easy for me to take advantage of people but if shit goes down for it I am most certainly responsible. Having tits does not negate that and an example of exactly the sort of thinking that causes these issues.

They're both to blame. To even try to argue otherwise is ridiculous.

To clarify I'm not a girl, but it's easy to take advantage of people in other ways.

Sort of, but people blame the girl way too much in situations like these. I'd blame her more if she was in the guild from day 1 and did the same thing, but I blamed my other guildies for not doing the the right thing, the thing they do to everyone who is not performing well which is simply to fail their trial and not accept them again without proper logs. They were too blind to see. The girl could have just applied to another guild with players more at her own skill and social level and done just fine. If the people in charge had taken some responsibility nothing would have happened, and that went for her behaviour as well. Let someone do whatever they want and they eventually will.

[Raiju]

Is it also the fault of the loot when guys cause drama over it?

Irrelevant strawman? If a girl is actively manipulating to make up for poor performance, she's as much to blame as the manipulated.

That being said, bad gear design does fall in blizzards hands at times.

[Raiju]

It's not an irrelevant strawman at all. When guys cause drama over a woman that isn't doing anything unreasonable, then the only people to be blamed are the guys.

See every example I'm seeing here is what I see (and have had to nip in the bud) in actual play - girls don't cause drama when they aren't taking an active part in this. A guy playing favourites quickly gets shut down unless they're the GM. It's when both of them are actively trying to leverage the issue becomes a guild issue as it often ends with multiple people leaving if you don't stop it early.

[Mlz]

Another Woman started raiding with us. She was a Marks Hunter. Suddenly there is contention with AGI mail gear. The new Woman is about 5x better looking than the first Woman. The second Woman starts the flirting with the Loot council leader now. doing the same shit as the first one, but being better looking the leader starts giving her preference.

Did you have some kind of a mandatory photo field in your app or what?

[Lorianus]

OP's post goes in correlation with the twitch booby streamer phenomenon, it just shows how many guys are desperate to get noticed by girls in games/on the internet.

[tmkai]

It's easy for me to take advantage of people but if shit goes down for it I am most certainly responsible. Having tits does not negate that and an example of exactly the sort of thinking that causes these issues.

They're both to blame.
-snip-

That is right. In my post I just want to bring in that men are also responsible for enabling them, but ofc should we blame those women. Its not a matter of the sex tho, but the wrong behaviour as a human beeing. Manipulating is wrong regardless of your sex.

[Incarnia]

It's easy for me to take advantage of people but if shit goes down for it I am most certainly responsible. Having tits does not negate that and an example of exactly the sort of thinking that causes these issues.

They're both to blame. To even try to argue otherwise is ridiculous.

To clarify I'm not a girl, but it's easy to take advantage of people in other ways.

That type of women you're talking about are selfish people with no self respect. You can find those traits in men gamers too. Add manipulative into the mixture and that makes for a quite nasty cocktail. Men just have to go about it differently, because the lack of tits.
Good leadership will however manage to deal with both men and women of this type appropriately. So even if it's the manipulative selfish persons "fault" for initiating drama and causing bad atmosphere - it is the leaderships fault, and their fault only, if they let this get out of hand.

[Al Gorefiend]

He's not wrong. 3dpd

I can't help but feel really depressed, just absolutely sympathetic towards my fellow humans, when a man has been so hurt, rejected and ignored by the opposite sex that they come to the conclusion that cartoon women over a computer screen give them more of an emotional bond than real women. That must be some form of depression in it's deepest form. Absolutely heartbreaking anime girls are more attractive to this person than the real thing.

[Marrilaife]

It's easy for me to take advantage of people but if shit goes down for it I am most certainly responsible. Having tits does not negate that and an example of exactly the sort of thinking that causes these issues.

They're both to blame. To even try to argue otherwise is ridiculous.

True, but having an environment where a female or someone pretending to be female can get a raid spot easier through sending nudes (could be fake) and flirting rather than being a competent player only encourages this behaviour. In my country we have a saying: the opportunity breeds the thief. If you run around with a wallet conspicuously sticking out of your back pocket, that doesn't justify the stealing and the thief is obviously a criminal here but the person who exposed themselves so badly is moronic as well.

There will always be thieves and there will always be sluts. Doesn't mean we should forgo our reason. As I said I've never had a guild crumble over "chick drama" but I saw a guild split apart because gm was corrupt and took bribes in form of "donations to the guild bank" he was a sole manager of and then gave favours to people who donated him, also saw a guild crumble because officers refused to kick / demote / bench / do anything at all with some super crap player that was holding down progression because he was a family member of someone.

If you are a serious raiding guild or strive to be, you should judge people based on their performance, attendance and willingness to cooperate with the team.

If you start judging people on gender, nude pics, promises of sex, donations to guild bank, asslicking, relation to your family, how long was someone your irl friend and other non-merit based criteria you can be sure good raiders who just want to raid and not witness a soap opera will leave for guilds that actually raid instead of making a show.

Also if you have any signs of bias or nepotism in the officer team either you can clean it up or it's gonna break the guild one day. Doesn't matter what the bias is over, gender, nationality, belonging to a clique etc. For example was once in a guild that had a clique of people from specific country and they supported each other, brought their own into the team even ones underperforming and so on. It finally destroyed the guild even though it was long after I left. Buy boy, it was annoying to have those untouchable holy cows in the team.

But anyway, facilitating the environment where the girls are expected to suck but make up for it by being seductive and slutty we only encourage more of this behaviour and less of girls actually trying to play well and earn their spots legit. Starting to drool the very moment a female voice appears on TS does no good to anybody.

Same reason why I never give gold to beggars, not because I can't afford it or I don't understand how it feels to be broke etc. It's for one reason - giving them gold encourages this behaviour. Therefore if people keep giving gold to beggars, only more beggars will emerge. If no one gives them coin, majority of them will give up and we'll be mostly free of the annoyance except maybe few stubborn leftovers.

Same case with slutty girls and drama queens. If people keep giving them attention, they thrive. If they get a cold shoulder they'd have a tough choice l2p or quit. Or move to social media, dating websites and hookup apps and leave gaming for gamers.

Same for streamer girls, if the donations and viewer count were proportionate to how skilled and entertaining they are, and not how big cleavage they have, maybe we'd get rid of those "gamer girl" streams where it's more about "accidental" panty shot or wardrobe malfunction rather than what she plays and how. Moral qualms against this kind of behaviour are lessened when it's proving to be the most profitable avenue. Internet is full of free porn yet someone somehow keeps donating to streamers who show half a boob.

Ruins the whole streaming scene. But yeah, hilarious when I heard guys saying don't watch Nagura, she sucks, even though she most probably plays better than both of them as they never were in world top guild, and then we have some "famous" streamers like Legendary Leah or Kaceytron that only reinforce the stereotype that "gamer girl" is a joke.

[Deleted]

Why would anyone mix wow with aspects of real life is beyond me. I am in the same guild for 7 years now leading it for the last 3 years and believe it or not I don't even share my facebook with the rest of the players and we re like brothers in game. No sisters sorry especially not women who enter guilds and start calling everyone "sweetheart this" and "love that". You can tell wow gold diggers this way :P

I think most progression raiders ( the hardcore stuff) raid for quite a lot of hours through the week, so much even that you might even say that it's big part of their life. So adding them on social network sites and doing other stuff can become quite normal.

I don't have any form of social media because I don't really need to know that my neighbor from across the street went on a nice get away to Barcelona or whatever. I care about what my friends do and I see them at least every weekend anyways. So I don't really have those problems I guess, I do have the phone number of multiple players(both male and female btw) and we message quite often about doing some arena's/bg's and whatever.

[Vargulf the Happy Husky]

Unfortunaly a chick destroyed our guild from the inside with bitching and passive aggressiveness.

The problem began when she started wanting to raid after beginning a long distance relationship with an officer of the guild. She actually demanded people say hello to her when she logged in and expected to get by with poor game play plus flirting.

He bugged everyone, all the time, about her and how she needed to be made a raider. She would fuck up on such a consitent basis, that you believe she did it on purpose.

The whole guild fell apart. I look back and wonder what I could have done to prevent this.

Have any of you dealt with similar behavior?

ive seen two guilds (well same guild just different name) ruined by women. stop getting bated by internet chicks.

[Fuze]

Happened to me once in Vanilla, this chick slept with our guild master and started demanding special treatment from everyone and of course since every one literally wanted to get in her pants they did whatever she wanted

[tj119]

Nope, when I was a GM/Officer I always had the balls to kick anyone who caused any guild drama, first offense no warnings, your gone. Anyone is replaceable in WoW.