"We think [Elite] Players deserve better gear" - Kaivax

[Soulzar]

Just about everything in life rewards you more for more effort. Not specific to WoW in any way....

[Zemuron]

What you don't realize is this person is not playing for free. Someone is paying more for that monthly token than the monthly sub fee. They make more money off of it. As for pay to win, it is the kiss of death to an MMO, if you really want to pay for the gear go to top end guilds they sell runs all the time.

At this point in the life cycle of the game, blizzard wants to "harvest" as much capital as it can from this investment while it can. It will come down to when they can make more $$ off the people who want to pay to win than the $$ they will lose from people leaving, and that's when its a feasible business strategy. the truth is, that times probably not far off

[Xcruiser]

...

I've always been more at odds with the idea of forcing a reluctant populace into the raiding experience when that version of "raiding" is more for showing lore than it has ever been about providing a challenge worthy of the subsequent gear acquired. Even at the reduced item level, I can queue up for LFR, do absolutely nothing, and receive gear; there are zero mechanisms in place that gauge a player's contribution to the party's efforts. At least in a 5-man dungeon, due to the party size, there's some semblance of knowing who is pulling their own weight because each person's slice of responsibility is substantially higher (although that's not to say people don't get carried in dungeons as well, because it most certainly happens).

That being said, I understand why the lore is heavily tied to raiding due to the scope of the main antagonists and how an army would be required to defeat them. How it translates to the overarching feel of the game, when these bosses are declawed/tranquilized for LFR, it tends to undermine the entire purpose for what raiding was in the past (if you don't believe me, go look up the raid design principles of Jeff Kaplan). The spread of difficulties is a band-aid on the larger problem that is a disconnect between people who genuinely want to raid versus people who just want to experience the lore (they are not mutually exclusive, but also not all raiders really care about the lore...just overcome challenging content and get better gear, and not all lore enthusiasts really care about progressing through a raid... just see the story-line move forward like a movie).

So, what I'm saying is that maybe raiding shouldn't be the primary avenue of the story reaching its conclusion, and that the alternate avenues of progression should provide those lore elements so that raiding can have its own niche (exclusively challenging content with more people), rather than having major characters require dismemberment(LFR) in support of "Loot Trick or Treating". The idea that you, as the player, are not required to improve and merely showing up is enough to be rewarded simply because you pay just as much as everyone else to play has been a travesty of an argument, and Blizzard still listened. Moreover, the idea that EVERYONE must raid because so many resources are spent on that content is a fallacy, because those art assets can be recycled for other experiences (See Throne of the Four Winds(Raid)/Vortex Pinnacle(Dungeon) -- gorgeous and used for two zones, yet still tragically under-utilized).

Does any of this have relevance to this thread? Yes, it targets the underlying problem of what different players want from the game, and the denaturing of raiding has done little, other than diminishing the long-awaited victory of a boss kill, to provide the game with meaningful content for people who actually are not very fond of raiding. The rewards don't match up with the required player effort, and this schism is somewhat insulting to the people who actually earn their way to better gear because it tends to trivialize their own accomplishments/status. My own empirical evidence also suggests that burn-out is far more common in this new age of raiding because re-progressing on the "same" boss is incredibly unpleasant (many of the older raiders probably experienced this back when they lost a few key players on their roster and content previously "on farm" led to uncharacteristic wipes/frustration -- now it's a built-in progression feature), and something that sits at the back of your mind when you consider killing it even on Normal with the prospect of having to progress again on Heroic and Mythic.

Simply put, more needs to be done by Blizzard to give people with different World of WarCraft goals a pathway for reaching them, not pigeonholing everyone into a single experience and differentiating them with scaling rewards.

[Kelimbror]

Simply put, more needs to be done by Blizzard to give people with different World of WarCraft goals a pathway for reaching them, not pigeonholing everyone into a single experience and differentiating them with scaling rewards.

Well...yeah. But that's actually a different issue, though I don't disagree. However, there are a lot of people like myself that are former hardcore raiders who still want a raid environment without the hassle. And as nice as the group finder is, LFR is far better for me. Mists was the most rewarding end game for me since I went casual after ending progression raiding after Deathwing. I didn't want to raid like that anymore, but there wasn't an alternative. As soon as LFR was a thing, I ceased being a hardcore raider and I was infinitely more happy during Mists.

So the problem is that there are (I imagine) a large group of people served by LFR with the addition that what you call 'pigeonholing' (and I agree somewhat) is also a tool to promote and maintain the health of raiding as an end game as a whole. It's a holistic solution. The alternative, which as stated above I agree, is to provide different content for everyone. The problem is that it is more costly to make and also breaks apart your player base. Those are two negatives for seemingly the same positive outcome of LFR.

It's a complex issue, for sure, but LFR is the best on all fronts for them and for us objectively. Maybe the dungeon changes is a way to minimize cost without breaking up the playerbase too much, but idk because we haven't seen it in live yet. But even then we're back to the same problem you mentioned, where lore is in the raid. So again, I have to come to the conclusion that LFR is best. I'm no expert though, just trying to look at it holistically instead of personally.

[Cynge]

Just about everything in life rewards you more for more effort. Not specific to WoW in any way....

Bah...I was going to post a link to a youtube video of a comedian discussing the topic of videogames related to other forms of entertainment, and how they are unique in their punishment...but it appears I can't post links. Google "dara o briain video games" if you'd like to see it...

Not that I want to see WoW, or any video game, enter into the idea that simply playing gets you everything.

I've also seen comparison to sports, and that if you aren't good enough or don't put the commitment in, you can't play in the NFL, or MLB, or whatever.

That's true...but there are lesser leagues, and they all get access to things like jersey's, pads, bats, etc. Even their own trophies. The difference, their pay (item level) is lesser than those of their professional counterparts.

That said...

I would be for a mechanism that helps curb the "I AFK for free lootz" syndrome. It's a slippery slope though...I ran an LFR the other night, and my DPS was a fraction of the top couple of DPSers. Admittedly, some of that was likely due to lack of attention on my part (I could have used cooldowns more frequently...I could have flasked...I could have etc etc) but a big chunk of it was because there were several people who had item level gear from heroic who were in there. I'm not going to compete with them, period.

So how do you track participation? Idle time? It's easy enough to hit a key now and then...or DPS but stand in fire and die. Minimum DPS required? What about tanks and healers?

Also, if you're going to implement such mechanics for LFR...why not the other raid tiers? With flex raiding, it's easier than ever to have a few people that don't really carry their weight or earn their loot there as well. And once people have the mechanics down, and out gear encounters, then carries become a regular thing. Better remove that while we're at it.

[taliey]

Why are mythic players so insecure around LFR players?

[Shakari]

What do you think about the recent blue post essentially saying "We think [Elite] players deserve better gear?"

Reminder --
We’re sensitive to your concerns and we’ll keep them all in mind as we settle on ilvl values for gear.

Something worth repeating --
There’s been some concern from both PvEers and PvPers that “raiders will just do Arena to get easy gear” and “gladiators will just do Mythic raids to get easy gear.” We feel it’s important to remember how challenging both types of gameplay can be. Downing Mythic bosses and earning Gladiator rating are two of the most difficult accomplishments in World of Warcraft. We think players who have demonstrated skill at those levels deserve to be rewarded with better gear.

This was a direct quote from Kaivax, a blue poster on the official forums.

Personally I agree. If people are going to spend the time and effort in that type of Raid or PvP environment, we better damn well get better gear than people clicking an "i win" button for LFR.

This is why tier bonuses and trinkets from normal and above raiding should not be in LFR at all. Why give players elite level bonuses / trinkets for janitor level performance?

What are your thoughts?

Hmm its amazing how you seem to add "elite" into various places when it was not even mentioned in the offical post.

And its not why trinkets and teir gear should not be on LFR gear, you lose nothing by them being in game at all.

The game would be a healthier place without this "elitism" you seem to think is actually neccessary.

[Egregious]

Why are mythic players so insecure around LFR players?

I wouldn't say insecure, I'd say wary? LFR players represent a trend in decision making Blizzard underwent that some people who raid Mythic are not happy with, myself included. LFR represents a huge shift toward a more casual game experience. If you feel so inclined, you can even track the degradation of things like professions and Legendaries to LFR. I personally think LFR cheapens raiding, as well as reduces the world outside of raiding. Once LFR exists, Blizzard spends an inordinate amount of effort attempting to funnel people into it at the expense of the game at large. You could argue that's a mistake not with LFR but with the mentality of Blizzard... but I would argue that LFR is the catalyst for that poor decision making and is itself responsible.

I personally despise LFR and would rather quit the game, should that time come, than relegate myself to raiding its miserable halls.

[ceall]

What do you think about the recent blue post essentially saying "We think [Elite] players deserve better gear?"

Reminder --
We’re sensitive to your concerns and we’ll keep them all in mind as we settle on ilvl values for gear.

Something worth repeating --
There’s been some concern from both PvEers and PvPers that “raiders will just do Arena to get easy gear” and “gladiators will just do Mythic raids to get easy gear.” We feel it’s important to remember how challenging both types of gameplay can be. Downing Mythic bosses and earning Gladiator rating are two of the most difficult accomplishments in World of Warcraft. We think players who have demonstrated skill at those levels deserve to be rewarded with better gear.

This was a direct quote from Kaivax, a blue poster on the official forums.

Personally I agree. If people are going to spend the time and effort in that type of Raid or PvP environment, we better damn well get better gear than people clicking an "i win" button for LFR.

This is why tier bonuses and trinkets from normal and above raiding should not be in LFR at all. Why give players elite level bonuses / trinkets for janitor level performance?

What are your thoughts?

100% with you. Especially about the lfr part of your post. I personally think WoD lfr would have been accepted more, if they had sets that looked good aesthetically and had the bonus they had in WoD, there would not have been so much bitching about lfr "being shit", because it was not. Progression wise it was perfect for lfr players in WoD. (Ding 100>Tanaan>HFC lfr>mythic dungeons>normal HFC)

[Sosuke Aizen]

Then why does legions lfr gear have real set bonuses?

Now to get on topic I'm not going to disagree at all about elite players getting gear. With the mythic+ set up (and assuming blizzard can pull it off) gear concerns shouldn't be night and day like in WoD. Compare a normal geared raider (we'll use a pally) with Bis gear and then compare a lfr raider with bis gear.

A huge differnce. While there should be a power gap the gap should never be that big like in WoD.

If you are raiding Mythic, how does LFR low ilvl gear affect you? I think some people just want that special feeling of getting tier but WoD was terrible with silly bonuses.

[Normie]

OK, whatever, this thread is new and different. I didn't think MMO-C could become more boring and repetitive on its way to Legion, but, voila.

[Sansnom]

I wouldn't say insecure, I'd say wary? LFR players represent a trend in decision making Blizzard underwent that some people who raid Mythic are not happy with, myself included. LFR represents a huge shift toward a more casual game experience. If you feel so inclined, you can even track the degradation of things like professions and Legendaries to LFR. I personally think LFR cheapens raiding, as well as reduces the world outside of raiding. Once LFR exists, Blizzard spends an inordinate amount of effort attempting to funnel people into it at the expense of the game at large. You could argue that's a mistake not with LFR but with the mentality of Blizzard... but I would argue that LFR is the catalyst for that poor decision making and is itself responsible.

So. You do not only hate LFR. You hate the fact that Blizzard is shifting the focus from the raiders to the more casual player. You resent the LFR because it means a shift to a casual experience. You do realise that if Blizzard were not to implement LFR but actually devote to developing non-raid contents, this will resource will come from somewhere? Most likely the resources that is currently contents for the minority few. Basically that means raiding will probably shifted downwards in terms of importance. While it will probably ultimate WoW experience for some, it will greatly reduced. At most there will two small tiers of about 6 bosses each per XP.

[Egregious]

So. You do not only hate LFR. You hate the fact that Blizzard is shifting the focus from the raiders to the more casual player. You resent the LFR because it means a shift to a casual experience. You do realise that if Blizzard were not to implement LFR but actually devote to developing non-raid contents, this will resource will come from somewhere? Most likely the resources that is currently contents for the minority few. Basically that means raiding will probably shifted downwards in terms of importance. While it will probably ultimate WoW experience for some, it will greatly reduced. At most there will two small tiers of about 6 bosses each per XP.

You couldn't have misconstrued what I think more. I think Blizzard is focusing on an idea that doesn't help anyone. I also have no idea what you're saying in the second bit of your post. All I was saying is LFR is a resource and philosophy sink and negatively impacts developer decisions in other aspects of the game.

If Blizzard could stop trivializing aspects of the game that were previously perfectly fine, removing others, and improving nothing, then I think we'd have a good game. We'll see how Legion is.

[Xcruiser]

Well...yeah. But that's actually a different issue, though I don't disagree. However, there are a lot of people like myself that are former hardcore raiders who still want a raid environment without the hassle. And as nice as the group finder is, LFR is far better for me. Mists was the most rewarding end game for me since I went casual after ending progression raiding after Deathwing. I didn't want to raid like that anymore, but there wasn't an alternative. As soon as LFR was a thing, I ceased being a hardcore raider and I was infinitely more happy during Mists.

So the problem is that there are (I imagine) a large group of people served by LFR with the addition that what you call 'pigeonholing' (and I agree somewhat) is also a tool to promote and maintain the health of raiding as an end game as a whole. It's a holistic solution. The alternative, which as stated above I agree, is to provide different content for everyone. The problem is that it is more costly to make and also breaks apart your player base. Those are two negatives for seemingly the same positive outcome of LFR.

It's a complex issue, for sure, but LFR is the best on all fronts for them and for us objectively. Maybe the dungeon changes is a way to minimize cost without breaking up the playerbase too much, but idk because we haven't seen it in live yet. But even then we're back to the same problem you mentioned, where lore is in the raid. So again, I have to come to the conclusion that LFR is best. I'm no expert though, just trying to look at it holistically instead of personally.

I think you and I have some things and common, so I will level with you. LFR, in theory, is a great tool. It is a vehicle providing convenient, one-button access to raiding that used to require a lot of time and effort putting together a group. However, I feel that is where its benefits end. It's a conclusion that I've gradually come to over the years, acknowledging the myriad of positions our community has debated since then in an effort to wrap their heads around this instrument that emerged as LFG around the time of the Trial of the Crusade patch, and evolved further when LFR was introduced with Dragon Soul. Those disparate parties are still at odds with one another today, and for good reason.

Blizzard, through their actions, has made LFR out to serve the lowest common denominator of the raiding populace. Now, pause for a moment, and realize I am not saying LFR people are unskilled players -- players like yourself are former hardcore players who, respectfully, just don't have the same time commitment you used to have for WoW, despite having proven your raiding competence in a former period. Why, then, are you being served the easiest content in a partition that does not necessarily alleviate the problem of time? What I mean by this is that LFR is a segmented version of a raid, and it is packaged into what's supposed to be easily digested chunks from said raid. Is an LFR queuer really being served the experience they deserve when they spend a great deal of time sitting in queue (tanks and healers to a lesser extent), only to be deposited into one of those raid partitions that could already be half completed? In a time where gamers are now favoring short bursts of gameplay(League of Legends, Rocket League, now Overwatch) instead of the lengthy dungeon crawl (think Blackrock Depths back in Classic WoW), LFR still seems too bloated of a construct, and the community would be better served by dividing it per boss. Off the top of my head, this serves two purposes: 1) players may queue for the exact boss they need, 2) players get a manageable version of the raid that may be consumed in the smallest unit of measurement for that content -- per boss. However, in doing so, I would bump up the difficulty so that LFR becomes an actual raiding experience, instead of a glorified spectator mode. LFR should no longer be a joke and thus receive real rewards for the increased effort. Incentives provided for sticking it out through wipes and overcoming the difficulty. Rating system for acknowledging players who lead these rag-tag groups to success or otherwise being helpful to others, while poor attitudes/toxic behavior gets down-rated, bringing back the reputation element of players that's been lost to cross-server anonymity.

LFR, in its current state, doesn't provide the challenge for old hardcore raiders (nor a quick experience, truthfully). It doesn't provide good enough gear to appease players who care about that (nor is better gear deserved for the quality of play required). It doesn't give new players a real taste of what raiding actually is (nor does the difficulty actually prepare them if they seek to move up). Would its current incarnation really be missed if it became an actual challenge, with gaps in gear supplemented by elite/group world quests, world bosses, and mythic dungeons? If a player is not interested in raiding at all, a Lorewalker Cho-style explanation of the events that occurred inside the raid could be implemented to relay the story. Ultimately, I feel there is so much controversy surrounding LFR because none of us are really sure what it's supposed to be, and habitual line steppers who frequent this medium of raiding want more rewards from the content while doing nothing to earn it -- a logical absurdity.

[Kelimbror]

*snip*

Yeah, a lot of these points are true. I think I disagree greatly on whether the benefit ends at an easy click, gear machine, but your points around difficulty are interesting. I don't know that I look to raiding to be challenging via LFR. I don't know that even after my background and ability I want challenging raids. I think as time has moved on, my desire for personal convenience against the landscape of all WoW content has grown greater than my desire to be challenged. My favorite content is where they marry the idea of convenience and challenge.

To me that was best represented by the Brawler's Guild. In Mists, I spent a lot of time doing that and enjoyed it. The rewards weren't great, but it was fun. The problem was that it went completely against the rest of the content design. Brawler's Guild itself was amazing. I got to be personally challenged at a time of my choosing, without needing to involve other players. The rewards were only cosmetic though, which was enough the first time. But really it doesn't make sense. In order to get better at BG I had to raid. Why couldn't I just do BG to get better at BG? Additionally, they dropped the ball and just started hitting the 'shuffle' button and didn't develop new content for it.

I'd be really interested to see a BG where they took raid bosses from the current expansion and wove them into the rotation, provided weekly bosses that take existing ones and change up the mechanics, etc. I'd like for a loot system to get added, potentially via a currency or something. And then to tie it into your idea, if you could turn BG into a Battle Arena where you and up to 5 people tackle a boss...then you're looking at some instant content that is rewarding, convenient, and challenging. But in reality, Mythic dungeons sorta fills this void...so all that's needed is a solo version of this and I'm happy.

The content can never be perfect, but I feel a rewarding LFR at least satisfies the most people. I can't think of a good way to hold people accountable beyond increasing difficulty (which was never the point of LFR) without becoming a Player Punishment System...obviously that would fail hard. Idk. Good conversation though, which isn't normal for this topic haha!

[lolpve]

They should get better gear for the content at which they are elite.

The problem is these neckbeard raiders believe they are entitled to a gear advantage in world pvp because they managed to kill a scripted encounter after 500 attempts. Mythic raid gear should crush everything else in raids. Elite pvp gear should crush mythic raiders in world pvp.

[Sansnom]

You couldn't have misconstrued what I think more.

This is what you posted.

LFR players represent a trend in decision making Blizzard underwent that some people who raid Mythic are not happy with, myself included. LFR represents a huge shift toward a more casual game experience.

[Egregious]

This is what you posted.

Yes, where you misconstrued "casual game experience" to mean I don't think there should be anything for casuals. I was unclear, I'll help you.

I think it's fine for casuals to have things to do. I think it's fine for people to raid casually. I do not think it's fine to have both the current iteration of LFR and the current iteration of raiding as they are two diametrically opposed philosophies. LFR is so pathetic that it undermines what raiding is while simultaneously allowing developers to believe they can drive nearly all PVE content behind raiding because, "Well, LFR is there and people will use it." The idea of LFR and it's ease of access is behind some of the worst decisions that have trivialized large elements of the game as a whole. The result being, few are happy. It's fine to have an "easy mode" of raiding, but to literally have "tourist mode" award competitive gear and Legendaries is laughable. There are many other ways that Blizzard can accomplish keeping casuals happy as well as creating content for them that doesn't involve the attempt to force them into raiding while simultaneously neutering the rest of the game at large.

The two concepts, having raiding content and having a wealth of rewarding game-play for those who do not wish to raid, are not mutually exclusive concepts. People seem to think they are, but they are not.

[maunazero]

I was unaware this was an issue. Just assumed if you got to high-end raiding you should earn higher ilvl gear. I mean that goes without saying right? Just like if you PVP at the top end (I do not pvp so I'm unaware what constitutes high-end pvping) you should earn higher ilvl gear. This is the way it has been.

I am a casual, I do LFR. My LFR gear better not be equal to a Mythic Raider. That would be disappointing personally. Part of high-end raiding is the fight, seeing what happens, and loot.

Note: I used to be a high-end raider for many years. Retired from scheduled raids due to reasons and do LFR because I enjoy the experience but I do not want to experience it 4 nights x 6 hours a week. Defending my LFR reasons because I read earlier people were hating on casuals and don't hate on retired people! Some of us in LFR can't do high-end anymore. Not everyone is a dimwit flopping around in the fire. Though there is always someone who is.

[Sansnom]

Yes, where you misconstrued "casual game experience" to mean I don't think there should be anything for casuals. I was unclear, I'll help you.

No need. It seems we do not understand each other. So no need to continue.