Resto Druid - Legion Talents

[tonydanza]

Should the mastery get a cap when a Heroic raider is only running with a 10m group, because that group size is small enough that he can layer more HoTs on specific people?

My original thought was yes.
I just disagree it being as big a headache as you think it. Not for just one ability, or a very select few

[Nevcairiel]

My original thought was yes.

But that makes it even worse. Where is the cutoff, 11, 14, 19? Suddenly one more player joins, and the mechanic of one of your base stats on gear changes?

Its not about one ability changing, Tranq also changes (ie. it gets buffed outside of raids), which is fine, but mastery is a stat, not an ability, its a key concept for everything you do, I would rather them cap it everywhere then cap it only outside of raids or some other even worse rule.

[Tiberria]

A 10 man raid is still big enough where there are enough targets to heal that an uncapped mastery shouldn't provide a significant problem. Plus, normal and heroic raiding is not really progression level raiding to the point where something like that matters enough to even worry about. Mythic raiding is the primary progression path, and Mythic+ is supposed to apparently be an alternate progression path (but the reality is - you are going to have to do both if you're serious about either anyway). I think it's fine to have it uncapped outside of raid groups and leave it at that.

I think capping it in raids for the sake of 5 man balance is atrocious and unacceptable class design. For one thing, 5 man balance is always a mess. For both sets of challenge mode seasons, there have always been top party comps to use for competitive times, and that's never going to change. The spec should not be penalized by being mediocre in raids or having a neutered play style for the sake of a bunch of other classes whining about 5 man balance. When in reality, 5 mans are a means to an end but not the ultimate end for 99% of the people complaining to begin with, and they are just using it as a straw man to kick Druids to the curb in favor of their own specs in raiding.

The entire fantasy/concept/design goal of this mastery is irrevocably broken if they put a cap on it. If they decide they have to put a cap on it to balance it, they should cut the whole damned thing altogether, revert back to the old mastery, and fire whatever developer designed this thing to begin with. If you want to have a HoT stacking mastery, you should have a HOT stacking mastery, not one with a cap on it. For example, putting a cap on this mastery would be like taking the Shaman mastery and saying it will have maximum effectiveness on players at 50% HP and not gain anything further below 50% HP. Or, it would be like taking the Paladin proximity mastery and making it give you 100% effectiveness on targets 30 yards away. Doing either of those would be ridiculous and defeat all gameplay of having the mastery in the first place, just like this is ridiculous. If they can't make the hot stacking mastery work from a balance perspective, rip it up and throw it in the shredder already.

[Nevcairiel]

Plus, normal and heroic raiding is not really progression level raiding to the point where something like that matters enough to even worry about. Mythic raiding is the primary progression path

I would argue the exact opposite, the number of people that care about the ultimate balance in a mythic progression race is far outnumbered by those raiding normal or heroic, and despite not raiding the highest difficulty (possibly due to real-life time concerns and whatnot, not necessarily skill), Heroic raiders would still like to experience a resemblance of balance. Any tiny advantage will get progression players to drop everything and switch, afterall.

But this is an old argument, and these forums are littered with mythic raiders so rehashing it would not get an outcome resembling the demographic of the game itself.

I view Mythic+ as a way to expand the "progression" to more players, as getting a decent 5m group capable of running decently high difficulty is usually possible even within "casual" guilds, at least those i've been in. Balance should not be entirely discarded on account of keeping raids "fair" - both should be fair (but not by using silly switches that change an stat around depending on content).

Personally I still don't see the mastery being this game breaking in small group content though. Other healers have their own advantages on healing small groups.
Do we actually have any kind of numbers that would say Druids are too strong, or are we just speculating based on the math? I don't remember if I saw something here. From playing on the beta, all I know is that Disc Priests always make me fear for my life when tanking.

[theburned]

I would argue the exact opposite, the number of people that care about the ultimate balance in a mythic progression race is far outnumbered by those raiding normal or heroic, and despite not raiding the highest difficulty (possibly due to real-life time concerns and whatnot, not necessarily skill), Heroic raiders would still like to experience a resemblance of balance. Any tiny advantage will get progression players to drop everything and switch, afterall.

But this is an old argument, and these forums are littered with mythic raiders so rehashing it would not get an outcome resembling the demographic of the game itself.

I view Mythic+ as a way to expand the "progression" to more players, as getting a decent 5m group capable of running decently high difficulty is usually possible even within "casual" guilds, at least those i've been in. Balance should not be entirely discarded on account of keeping raids "fair" - both should be fair (but not by using silly switches that change an stat around depending on content).

Personally I still don't see the mastery being this game breaking in small group content though. Other healers have their own advantages on healing small groups.
Do we actually have any kind of numbers that would say Druids are too strong, or are we just speculating based on the math? I don't remember if I saw something here. From playing on the beta, all I know is that Disc Priests always make me fear for my life when tanking.

I don't see any reason to argue for healer balance in certain flexible raids (10-15 people would pretty much be the only ones affected by this, and its not like its to the extent that it is in 5 man atm.)

With that said I do not support the cap in 5 man and no cap in higher difficulties at all, it looks very lazy and half assed, "cba doing this lets just take the easy road". It still shafts our gameplay in 5 man content.

I am quite sure if its just math then we do have numbers on it, but if you mean if we actually have any experience on the matter, yes, we do have a lot of experience on the matter. (when the only damage that matters is one shot damage it's quite easy to say there is an issue.)

- - - Updated - - -

That suggestion isn't any better though. Not only is it overly complicated, but just a nightmare to tune (not that the current mastery isn't). You'd require: x_1+...+x_k (k being the maximal number of HoTs) <= M (to fix the problem of the current mastery iteration) and x_1>= m_1 (raid healing performance has to be met). To have the intended gameplay (layering HoTs) benefit, and not usually have switches after the first HoTstack, you'd also need something like x_1+x_2 >=m_2 (and so forth). You'd require a rather flat drop of the first handful of stacks, running out of budget early on, i.e. the proper numbers should be something like: 25% - 20% - 15% - 0% - 0% - 0% - 0%. (or 20 - 15 - 10 - 5 - 3 - 2 - 1, i.e. the tailstacks are so marginal, that they're essentially not better than no benefit, with the only change being, the first stack will get more value assgined, so that you actually end up with less incentive to stack than under a hardcap design. Of course you can fix that by additionally requiring x_1= x_2 = ..., but that woudl yield a distribution of e.g. 20% - 20% - 5% - 5% - 3% - 3% - 0 still , i.e. the tailstacks performance still being marginal relative to a fresh stack).

Would you mind defining the x_, M and m_ ? Currently hard to argue against anything which makes no sense. It's merely a readjusting to the current mastery and the biggest issue about the current one is that it scales to ridiculous amounts in 5 man content, also it's a stat so there is quite a bit of room to play with, as long as it's competitive with crit or not outshining haste by any means it's in a decent spot.

With just a multiplicative reduction of 20% you would see something along the lines of 20%-16%-12,8%-10,2%-8,2%-6,6%-5,2% ~ 79%
So lets say you would have 18% with the current iteration you would get 126% increased healing, and keep the first hot to be a bit more powerful, at 2 stacks its the same value.

[Torty]

I think steep linear reduction might be the best road to go. Let's say first 2 hots are not reduced at all and you get full benefit, then 3rd only gives 80%, 4th like 40-50%, 5th something like 10-20%. You still get something, but it's not as bad to tune.

I'm not sure multiplicative reduction will do enough.

[theburned]

I think steep linear reduction might be the best road to go. Let's say first 2 hots are not reduced at all and you get full benefit, then 3rd only gives 80%, 4th like 40-50%, 5th something like 10-20%. You still get something, but it's not as bad to tune.

I'm not sure multiplicative reduction will do enough.

Thats just essentially capping it again though, getting 1.5-4% from the last 2 hots is absolutely nothing comapred to the 60-70% you get from the earlier ones Also your suggested numbers would essentially be 1% less than a multiplicative reduction having the 3 last ones adding nothing.

20%-20%-16%-10%-4%-4%-4% = 78%

While the multiplicative reduction would be 79%, and a lot more intuitive, and I don't think anyone would consider this to be steep linear reduction, there is no continuity to it at all.

With a multiplicative reduction you could also up the first stack by 5% to 21% instead, and put the scaling factor at 0,78 instead, leaving you at a bit stronger on the 2 first hots, and weaker down the line.

[Torty]

I just put random numbers in.

[Deleted]

Uhmm guys they removed the Mark of the wild completely ?
I got invite to beta but I can not find Mark of the Wild spell. I know it was changed from raid wide to single target but right now I am afraid they remove it completely ???

Why ? I do not understand this. Those raid buffs are there since vanilla and not they have decided to remove all raid buffs ??? Really do not get it...

[Nevcairiel]

Why ? I do not understand this. Those raid buffs are there since vanilla and not they have decided to remove all raid buffs ??? Really do not get it...

If everyone has the raid buffs all the time, they serve no purpose and might as well be removed. They were nothing but a nuisance these days. They were so deluted over the years with so many classes bringing so many buffs, to top it all of with Lone Wolf hunters buffing anything they want.

In raids everyone has them all the time, and in 5 mans you feel punished for not having them for no reason other than the choice of players you bring - which really shouldn't be about those buffs.

For the single target version, yes it has disappeared again, which is probably for the better. If such a single target buff is strong enough to matter it causes all sorts of social problems and potentially balancing issues, and if its not .. well then its useless.

[Keiyra]

You do lose a little bit of social interaction though when all buffs are removed. I remember many a times while questing/leveling, coming across another player who helped me (or whom I helped) and in thanks, tossed a Gift of the Wild on them (or received something in return - mmmm blessing of wisdom).

I know its minor and anecdotal, but sometimes its the little things that add flavor, when taken collectively, can subtly make a big difference in the feel of a game. Sad to see it go.

[Tiberria]

I think that the primary reason they had to do away with raid buffs was because it would create too many balance/ideal comp issues in Mythic+, with it being virtually required to set up the party comp around a certain coverage of raid buffs. Of course, I am also kind of surprised they didn't decide to expand battle rezz and Bloodlust to more classes at the same time.

[Keiyra]

I think that the primary reason they had to do away with raid buffs was because it would create too many balance/ideal comp issues in Mythic+, with it being virtually required to set up the party comp around a certain coverage of raid buffs. Of course, I am also kind of surprised they didn't decide to expand battle rezz and Bloodlust to more classes at the same time.

If they were concerned they could've just made it like proving grounds - all buffs are provided once you zone into a mythic+ so which spec/class normally brings them wouldn't matter comp wise.

Or the reverse - all buffs are disabled in mythic+. Either option would solve the comp issue, without impacting the use of buffs in the rest of the game.

It just seems that blizzard often decides to change something gamewide, instead of only changing it in the niche area its causing problems (i get that game wide consistency is "easier" to understand, and more likely easier to code, but it feels like whenever they do that, they are often tossing the baby out with the bathwater)

[tritus]

The use of buffs in the rest of the game was entirely minor, and in any PVE situation buffs were just a checklist that if you didn't fill, you felt (and were) weaker. Buffs were only really interesting when they were unique, but that sort of thing doesn't really fly anymore.

[Staryu]

Im still trying to figure out why the speed of our travel form got taken away?

[stormgust]

A buff to CW, probably to have a handful more druids picking it over Germination. The only effect it's probably going to have though is, that Prosperity becomes even more of a no-choice relative to its compentitors.

[Nythiz]

A buff to CW, probably to have a handful more druids picking it over Germination. The only effect it's probably going to have though is, that Prosperity becomes even more of a no-choice relative to its compentitors.

The CW buff is nice, although it's hard to tell if it's sufficient.
I think Germination will often be superior mechanical wise, because of the flexibility and mastery; meaning that something that'll be hard to fix by simply upping the scaling of CW.

In 5 man content the extra mastery stack from germination (which you can easily keep up 100%) probably outweighs CW, unless there is a niche situation where there is spiky tank burst where having the extra cooldown is a big thing. Which could very well be a thing with the new mythic+ modes, plus the fact we lost some burst healing cooldowns/buttons.
In PvP the same issue, I'd mostly rather have the permanent extra mastery stack + extra HoT healing than CW; UNLESS the removal of NS and Genesis leave us handicapped in burst healing and/or mastery is tuned very low for PvP balance reasons.
In raid content i'd probably take the flexibility of the more passive-ish germination over CW too in many situations.

The situation you end up with isn't bad though. If CW's healing is impactful enough, it could be a nice situational talent. Which in my eyes is exactly how talents should be, swapped based on situation/preference.

Prosperity is still unbelievably bad though. I just don't get how blizzard looks at this talent and thinks: "Yep this is ok".
There needs to be more on this talent, which can be either:
1) Cooldown reduction on swiftmend on top of the charges; which would make it synergize better with a talent like SotF besides actually offering throughput increase.
2) A "feedback loop" so that there is a way to generate charges. That way charges would actually make more sense. E.g. Enh shamans have a chance to reset Lava Lash's cooldown with each Flame Shock tick and a talent that gives charges to lava lash.
3) Include more spells with the charge system. E.g. Barkskin, Ironbark and Wild Growth. Making this talent one that gives flexibilty to use a lot of cooldowns more efficiently and thus indirectly increasing throughput.

EDIT: Just checked to be sure, but CW is now 1050% SP healing over 6 seconds, that's quite a chunk.
Might be good enough to take if you really want to replace the loss of NS. As it's basically 3 crit Regrowths in a row worth of healing.

[theburned]

The CW buff is nice, although it's hard to tell if it's sufficient.
I think Germination will often be superior mechanical wise, because of the flexibility and mastery; meaning that something that'll be hard to fix by simply upping the scaling of CW.

In 5 man content the extra mastery stack from germination (which you can easily keep up 100%) probably outweighs CW, unless there is a niche situation where there is spiky tank burst where having the extra cooldown is a big thing. Which could very well be a thing with the new mythic+ modes, plus the fact we lost some burst healing cooldowns/buttons.
In PvP the same issue, I'd mostly rather have the permanent extra mastery stack + extra HoT healing than CW; UNLESS the removal of NS and Genesis leave us handicapped in burst healing and/or mastery is tuned very low for PvP balance reasons.
In raid content i'd probably take the flexibility of the more passive-ish germination over CW too in many situations.

The situation you end up with isn't bad though. If CW's healing is impactful enough, it could be a nice situational talent. Which in my eyes is exactly how talents should be, swapped based on situation/preference.

Prosperity is still unbelievably bad though. I just don't get how blizzard looks at this talent and thinks: "Yep this is ok".
There needs to be more on this talent, which can be either:
1) Cooldown reduction on swiftmend on top of the charges; which would make it synergize better with a talent like SotF besides actually offering throughput increase.
2) A "feedback loop" so that there is a way to generate charges. That way charges would actually make more sense. E.g. Enh shamans have a chance to reset Lava Lash's cooldown with each Flame Shock tick and a talent that gives charges to lava lash.
3) Include more spells with the charge system. E.g. Barkskin, Ironbark and Wild Growth. Making this talent one that gives flexibilty to use a lot of cooldowns more efficiently and thus indirectly increasing throughput.

EDIT: Just checked to be sure, but CW is now 1050% SP healing over 6 seconds, that's quite a chunk.
Might be good enough to take if you really want to replace the loss of NS. As it's basically 3 crit Regrowths in a row worth of healing.

CW buff is really nice, not sure if its worth playing it over germination, especially in 5 man content atm, but in raids it should definitely have some value. (and with a change to mastery it should be good in 5 mans aswell.)

Prosperity, it's really hard to see how to change it unless they do something with our 4p bonus, more charges feels like it can easily push it into OP, ironbark well we see how strong double HoS feels on live atm, having a 1 min cd ironbark (26% DR 20% increased HoTs) with 2 charges, we are starting to get into external active mitigation at that point. Double SotF WG during innervates would just be ridiculous amounts of free healing, with very few drawbacks, barkskin just seems like a nice benefit, but nothing that would make our decision favour the talent.

A way to generate charges, well we have our 4p, but first of all its very costly, 2nd its very tied to SotF, which isnt really an issue for prosperity either, which means that the 4p makes the talent feel mandatory, unless ofc you skip the 4p for easily accessible wf/socket offpieces, at which point this talent wouldn't be picked anyway because it just doesnt do that much without SotF.

Which in the leads me to think that if anything could help out this talent it would be to buff SotFs throughput, wheter it would be a small extra HoT, a flat healing increase or even a small efflorence pool left behind for a few seconds.

[KrinKer]

SOMEONE in beta actually post something over that priest jewelcrafting necklace ...

Why do they get somewhere around 1500 more mp5 than any other healers ... makes NOOOOOOO sense whatsoever !
They need to allow those necklace to be used by other classes ....

[theburned]

SOMEONE in beta actually post something over that priest jewelcrafting necklace ...

Why do they get somewhere around 1500 more mp5 than any other healers ... makes NOOOOOOO sense whatsoever !
They need to allow those necklace to be used by other classes ....

we got an artifact trait giving us up to 2880 mp5, which is not something other healers get, and I dont think the priest necklace is competitive in later content