Do you think nuking Japan was a necessary evil?

[Gulharum]

neither are their lives somehow magically more valuable than a person in uniform.

Bombing campaigns happened throughout the war, leaving most of Germany and Japan in rubble.

By signing up for the military, you are essentially volunteering to be expendable in the pursuit of protection for the country. On a moral basis, they are not expendable, and are equal to civilians as you say. When it comes to war though, they have made themselves expendable. I am arguing that large-scale wars shouldn't be carried out at all, because the lives of both soldiers and civilians matter. Obviously, it's hard to make those wars not happen. It's not a switch that can be flipped, nor a matter of legislation in our country. It's a matter of countries joining together to do their best to ensure that more wars like WW1 and WW2 do not happen again.

[Bushtuckrman]

No lol. America just wanted to use their new fancy bombs on somebody to set an example and also muh pearl harbour.
Japan was already willing to conditionally surrender.

[Dreknar20]

but it killed far more civilians than that. The reason why killing innocents

Civilians are part of the war effort whether they like it or not.

Destroying a nation's basic infrastructure hinders its ability to wage war, which is why so many cities were bombed.
And people really need to stop using the word 'innocent', its just an emotional ploy.

[nonameelf]

On civilians no less!

And why not keep negotiating?

Why not try showing off the Abombs power offshore first?

We know we had, at least another ready to use, if not more, if the Japanese plain out refused to conditions of surrender. But Im pretty sure, that if they had any idea what was coming, the raw destruction that instant could bring, I think theyd have given up. The sad fact is that wasnt tried.

The bombings were mostly a giant "fuck you" to Japan and a display of American power that was completely unnecessary for winning the war since the Japanese were already trying to get peace. Especially the second bomb.

You are right, how foolish of me. One of the most militant nations of all times was extremely likely to just lay down their weapons and give up. Oh wait, we asked them to surrender before the first bomb. they said "no." We asked them again after the first bomb and told them more was coming, they still said "no."

It is rather foolish of you because the Japanese were already suing for peace several months before the first bomb was even dropped.

And again, who would they be shooting with their bullets if they were stuck on their island with a crippled navy and air force?

[apepi]

Well...Japan likes US pretty much more like any other country...so yes?
I mean you could say they could have liked us more but....what happened happened.

[Vurdah]

Something people seem to forget about Hiroshima and Nagasaki is that we dropped the bombs on civilians. We weren't going after a specific military installation, we just killed a bunch of civilians.

[Daymanmb]

Well...Japan likes US pretty much more like any other country...so yes?
I mean you could say they could have liked us more but....what happened happened.

Keep your enemies close?

[stomination]

Faced with the prospect of an invasion of the Home Islands, starting with Kyūshū, and the prospect of a Soviet invasion of Manchuria—Japan's last source of natural resources—the War Journal of the Imperial Headquarters concluded:


We can no longer direct the war with any hope of success. The only course left is for Japan's one hundred million people to sacrifice their lives by charging the enemy to make them lose the will to fight.[9]

As a final attempt to stop the Allied advances, the Japanese Imperial High Command planned an all-out defense of Kyūshū codenamed Operation Ketsugō.[10] This was to be a radical departure from the defense in depth plans used in the invasions of Peleliu, Iwo Jima, and Okinawa. Instead, everything was staked on the beachhead; more than 3,000 kamikazes would be sent to attack the amphibious transports before troops and cargo were disembarked on the beach.[8]

If this did not drive the Allies away, they planned to send another 3,500 kamikazes along with 5,000 Shin'yō suicide boats and the remaining destroyers and submarines—"the last of the Navy's operating fleet"—to the beach. If the Allies had fought through this and successfully landed on Kyūshū, only 3,000 planes would have been left to defend the remaining islands, although Kyūshū would be "defended to the last" regardless.[8] The strategy of making a last stand at Kyūshū was based on the assumption of continued Soviet neutrality.[11]

A set of caves were excavated near Nagano on Honshu, the largest of the Japanese islands. In the event of invasion, these caves, the Matsushiro Underground Imperial Headquarters, were to be used by the army to direct the war and to house the Emperor and his family

[Daymanmb]

Something people seem to forget about Hiroshima and Nagasaki is that we dropped the bombs on civilians. We weren't going after a specific military installation, we just killed a bunch of civilians.

Some people are okay with that in this conversation..

[tj119]

Because of morals...? Granted, morality is subjective, but strip away all the contexts of the war and ask yourself a question: is it O.K. to nuke civilians in order to get their country to submit, and to make an impression upon another country who is a potential enemy? Generally speaking, those people that were killed in Japan had nothing to do with it, yet they were fried in their homes. It's unthinkable that humans would do this to one another, let alone attempt to justify it. It is true that in situations where you are competing for survival, it is usually best to do absolutely everything you can to survive, even if it means killing others. But I think that now that we have fairly stable societies throughout the world, large-scale war should be off the table for the sake of our species.

Edit: On a political basis, I don't think Obama should have apologized for the bombings (there are too many political problems with doing that), but I also think his presence in Japan in memory of what happened was a more personal way of saying "I'm sorry this had to happen", which is the only allowable form of apology allowable in this situation.

It's unthinkable humans would do that to each other? Lmao surely you need to go back to some High School history there buddy, humans have been slaughtering each other by the hundreds of thousands as long as we were intelligent enough to record it. It's in no way surprising humans would test out the newest and best toy for killing their enemies. Wars, large ones especially, will always be fought. Think otherwise and you are a fucking fool.

[Forogil]

Then the bombings in Europe were immoral (to me, once again, morality is subjective) as well. And the Hiroshima bomb may have killed 20,000 soldiers, but it killed far more civilians than that. The reason why killing innocents in war is frowned upon now is because it's flat-out wrong. It was not "right" back in WW2. It has never been right. It's a recurring theme throughout human civilization that harming innocents is wrong.

No, it is mainly a modern invention. Remember Carthage and what happened to the conquered?
Or did you consider the idiotic idea of literally decimating your own forces during the Roman era? What do you think that says of the fate of the civilian populations?

All evidence suggests that human suffering is decreasing through the ages - not increasing; go educate yourself by reading e.g. "Better angels" by S. Pinker.

[Daymanmb]

Faced with the prospect of an invasion of the Home Islands, starting with Kyūshū, and the prospect of a Soviet invasion of Manchuria—Japan's last source of natural resources—the War Journal of the Imperial Headquarters concluded:


We can no longer direct the war with any hope of success. The only course left is for Japan's one hundred million people to sacrifice their lives by charging the enemy to make them lose the will to fight.[9]

As a final attempt to stop the Allied advances, the Japanese Imperial High Command planned an all-out defense of Kyūshū codenamed Operation Ketsugō.[10] This was to be a radical departure from the defense in depth plans used in the invasions of Peleliu, Iwo Jima, and Okinawa. Instead, everything was staked on the beachhead; more than 3,000 kamikazes would be sent to attack the amphibious transports before troops and cargo were disembarked on the beach.[8]

If this did not drive the Allies away, they planned to send another 3,500 kamikazes along with 5,000 Shin'yō suicide boats and the remaining destroyers and submarines—"the last of the Navy's operating fleet"—to the beach. If the Allies had fought through this and successfully landed on Kyūshū, only 3,000 planes would have been left to defend the remaining islands, although Kyūshū would be "defended to the last" regardless.[8] The strategy of making a last stand at Kyūshū was based on the assumption of continued Soviet neutrality.[11]

A set of caves were excavated near Nagano on Honshu, the largest of the Japanese islands. In the event of invasion, these caves, the Matsushiro Underground Imperial Headquarters, were to be used by the army to direct the war and to house the Emperor and his family

Is it too obvious to say of course?

[Skulltaker]

Civilians are part of the war effort whether they like it or not.

Destroying a nation's basic infrastructure hinders its ability to wage war, which is why so many cities were bombed.
And people really need to stop using the word 'innocent', its just an emotional ploy.

Ah well, so, since the attacks of 9/11 targeted the US infrastructure, the lost lives are neither 'innocent' and the people mourning about it are just fooled by an emotional ploy. Some fine bullshit you are throwing around. Even below average for these forums.

[Daymanmb]

No, it is mainly a modern invention. Remember Carthage and what happened to the conquered?
Or did you consider the idiotic idea of literally decimating your own forces during the Roman era? What do you think that says of the fate of the civilian populations

Comparing Roman times to WWII? Good argument..

[Dreknar20]

Something people seem to forget about Hiroshima and Nagasaki is that we dropped the bombs on civilians.

so?

Many bomb raids across the war were just to damage cities. Hell some British raids measured their success on how many Germans they could "de-house"

[Independent voter]

Like a 140 kg of uranium oxide was shipped to Japan by their allies the Germans via U-Boat submarine. This was for the Japanese atomic bomb program.

[Daymanmb]

so?

Many bomb raids across the war were just to damage cities. Hell some British raids measured their success on how many Germans they could "de-house"

Back to ridiculous non sequiturs I see?

[Dreknar20]

the lost lives are neither 'innocent'

Do tell then.

If civilians are 'innocent', what crime are they innocent of? And who then is guilty?
Cause the only thing you can say is that they are innocent of being in the military, which I'm sure sure service men wldnt appreciate too much.

[Sierra85]

sometimes you have to do the wrong thing to do the right thing.

[Sonatine185]

I'm just glad we didn't bomb their anime industry.

Japan, feels bad man, we nuked them, and today we occupy them.