[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[TickTickTick]

Can someone elaborate on time travel theory?

It's a can of worms you don't want to open, really. After what they've done with Dorne I'm sure there's no logical interpretation in the show. Maybe in book, if it'll go in the same direction.

[Spray]

Can someone elaborate on time travel theory? I don't find it a matter at all. Bran had simply visions of the past. At that vision he saw Hodor becoming hodor because he had a glimpse of his future. Maybe that exact moment past Bran had inadvertently used his powers. Who cares? Am I missing something?

Bran being in a vision accidentally switched the warg mode from old Hodor to young one. Young Hodor started seeing his own death 30 years later, hence he couldn't handle it and got crazy, while the actual, normal Hodor went back to being uncontrolled himself and simply fulfilled his destiny - it was clearly in his eyes imho.

I feel this is a closed circle somehow, as well as Bran being Three-Eyed Raven and one of the causes Aerys became Mad King - strange whispers in his head.

[pateuvasiliu]

I truly hope the Mad King was mad because he was a Targaryen, not because of time travel shenanigans.

It's just too much.


If Bran truly makes the Mad King go insane then he has hundreds of thousands of deaths on his hands, including Ned's brother and father.

[Puupi]

Hallucinations, time travel and resurrections always ruin good stories. GoT is on a dangerous road.

[Deleted]

The scenes don't have to happen in real time for them to shown in reasonably consistent order. For Littlefinger to be in KL, then the Vale, then at the wall all in the period of time it took Jon to get resurrected and spend a couple days meeting his sister before heading out, he'd need a damned teleporter.

That's the thing. No one ever said thta LF/Sansa story was at the same time as Jon. It's not because they show them in the same episodes that they are happening at the same time.
They can show LF three weeks prior to the next scene that will be Jon for example.

[Reeve]

That's the thing. No one ever said thta LF/Sansa story was at the same time as Jon. It's not because they show them in the same episodes that they are happening at the same time.
They can show LF three weeks prior to the next scene that will be Jon for example.

And if that's the case, then it's really sloppy flimmaking, because there's nothing to indicate that these disparate events happening in the same episode are happening a month or more apart.

[Skandulous]

Its NOT time travel. He is in a vision of the past and as the 3er says the past cant be rewritten the ink is dry. Present Hodor was always Hodor so Bran couldn't have changed it or he would have never been Hodor in the first place. What happened to Wyliss was always meant to happen and he always becomes Hodor.

[Frontenac]

1) It's clearly not just "visions" if the people there can hear and see him.

2) The ink clearly isn't dry. If the Raven knew what was "supposed" to happen and took specific actions to ensure it happened, then he also had the option of simply not taking action as well. It's not like a prophecy where any action the protagonist takes ends up fulfilling it inadvertently or something, this was direct, intentional action to ensure a certain outcome.

It seems a lot more like the Bronze Dragonflight situation, where it can indeed change and it's just not supposed to, so it's easier to start the training of someone like Bran with a well-intentioned lie like, "Things can't be changed."

I thought about it again. Here's the chain of events, as far as I understand ;

1. Bran wargs out of boredom, he meets the Night King, who marks him.
2. Bran awakes out of warging. The Raven says that the Night King will be there soon because of the mark. He says that Bran must take his place but is not ready. He wargs with Bran to give him quickly all the info that he needs. Then, the action goes elsewhere (the Wall or Braavos, I don't remember).
3. Back to the Heart Tree. The Night King arrives. Meera tries to wake up Bran and begs him to warg into Hodor.
4. While this happens, Bran and the Raven are in past Winterfell, witnessing Ned's depart for the Eyries. Bran hears Meera, and the Raven tells him to warg into Hodor. We know the rest.

The important question is the time lap between point 2 and 3. The Night King could not have travelled that fast. There must have been a rather long period between his encounter with Bran and his arrival at the heart tree. At least a few days. Bran and the Raven must not have been in Winterfell all this time. The Raven must have been showing Bran a lot of things before the Night King arrived. It happens that they were in Winterfell when the attack begun. If the Night King arrived a little time before or after, they may have been elsewhere, at the Tower of Joy or Robert's coronation. Who knows? Therefore, I believe there is a possibility that the Raven did not bring Bran in Winterfell just to make sure that Wylis became Hodor. He may have wanted to show him Hodor's origin, but he may not have known that Bran's warging was the cause of the "transformation", nor that the Night King's attack would happen at this point. The more I think about it, the more I believe that it would have taken the Raven a godly sense of timing to bring Bran exactly at the right place at the right moment when the attack occured, so that Bran could warg Hodor/Wylis at the time history has recorded it (ugh, sorry for my English, I had a hard time to write this sentence. Not sure if I understand it myself). All of this happen out of necessity and the Raven had no choice. Therefore, the ink remains dry.

[eschatological]

That's a lot of assumption there on what the Raven was doing there.


Furthermore, just the fact that 1) the Raven knew the Night's King was coming, but 2) didn't tell Bran to escape and instead took him warging, means the Raven made a choice which he didn't have to make. I assume the counterargument to that would be that "Bran's training wouldn't have been complete then!" but I don't know that we can say it's complete now.

[Absintheminded]

snip.

100% disagree. They were in Winterfell *precisely* for Bran to warg into Wyllis. What other last minute lesson would the Three-Eyed Raven have intended for Bran? It's clear watching how the Three-Eyed Raven communicates to Bran here that there is a very specific lesson for him to learn: a) to be able to understand what is going on outside the vision around his physical body, and b) that his actions *can* and *do* have a very real impact on what he's seeing ie. "with great power comes great responsibility".

[Frontenac]

That's a lot of assumption there on what the Raven was doing there.


Furthermore, just the fact that 1) the Raven knew the Night's King was coming, but 2) didn't tell Bran to escape and instead took him warging, means the Raven made a choice which he didn't have to make. I assume the counterargument to that would be that "Bran's training wouldn't have been complete then!" but I don't know that we can say it's complete now.

The Raven said to Bran that he had to know everything. Specifically, everything about the past. Bran's mistake changed his plans, so he had to quickly show him the most important events Bran had to know. He had no choice but to try to give all the formation in a few days. And no, Bran's formation is not complete. As the Raven said, Bran is not ready to "become him."

[Chromell]

First penis was actually Hodor's hung, 12 incher...

Curses! Foiled again!

[Frontenac]

100% disagree. They were in Winterfell *precisely* for Bran to warg into Wyllis. What other last minute lesson would the Three-Eyed Raven have intended for Bran? It's clear watching how the Three-Eyed Raven communicates to Bran here that there is a very specific lesson for him to learn: a) to be able to understand what is going on outside the vision around his physical body, and b) that his actions *can* and *do* have a very real impact on what he's seeing ie. "with great power comes great responsibility".

But how did the Raven know that Bran would be responsible for the transformation of Wylis into Hodor? For all we know, the Raven can only see the past. So, he may already have seen Hodor's beginning, but Bran was not there with him. All he saw is Wylis collapsing as if he had a seizure. How could the Raven know that the Night King would arrived precisely when he was showing this to Bran in Winterfell?

As for responsibility, I would say that Bran had little in that case. He is responsible for warging to the Night's King. But not for Hodor. He didn't know what effects this would have. For him, he just warged into today's Hodor, not Wylis. It was out of his control. And his action did not change the past. It just achieved it. Hodor was already Hodor when Bran was born. If the past had been changed, I would say that the lesson was that "with great power comes great responsibility." If there is a lesson to get from that experience, I would say that it's more "the past has been written. The ink is dry. Whatever you would do here will only accomplish the past."

And really, it's better that way. If Bran could alter the past, why shouldn't he go back in the past and prevent himself from warging to the Night King? Or to even prevent the Children of the Forest from creating the Night King? Would that make an interesting story? I think not. I think it's more interesting if the past is set in stone. So that Bran will work for the present and the future.

[Frontenac]

Was it a mistake? Did he have to change his plans? Or was the ink already dry?

It does not look like the Raven knows the future. I don't believe that his plan was to let Bran set events in motion before he was ready to replace him.

[Frontenac]

He doesn't have to know the future to know the past - he's able to see past and present. My point, though, if it was meant to happen, since the ink is already dry, it wasn't a mistake and he didn't really change his plans.

The fact that it was meant to happen does not imply that the Raven meant it to happen. If the Raven cannot see the future, he may have had other plans that were changed when Bran got touched by the Night King.

[Absintheminded]

snip.

Again, no. We have every reason to believe he knew what would happen, just not when. Jojen knew before setting off to find Bran and take him to the TER that he would die because he saw it. Either the TER showed him this, or his powers of greensight showed him. Regardless, it implies that the TER is able to see visions of events that have yet to happen.

Also, watch the TER's body language. He's just laying back allowing Bran to get sucked in to this moment until the very second Meera is crying for help. The TER casually and yet pointedly tells Bran to listen to his friends.

Furthermore, I disagree with your opinion on Bran influencing the past. The TER told Bran early on that the past is written because he was not ready to understand the influence that he may have. The TER told Bran as much. "Am I ready?" "No."

[Deleted]

Supposed spoilers for episode 6

1.Meera Reed and Bran Stark are still being chased by a group of Wights and it seems the wights are catching up.Meera is exhausted and about to give up on Bran.We see a man on a horseback seemingly with a flaming sword who kills a couple of wights with a strike and the rest by dismounting from his horse.A close up shows the man to be Ned's brother Benjen Stark who'd left the wall in season 1.Bran is still in his visions and Meera doesn't recognize him.He says he knows what's happened and they need to take Bran to Castle Black.A well shot scene.

The crowd at Kings landing has gathered at the Red Keep for Margaery's atonement.The HS is recalling Margaery's sins and Margaery confesses to lying to the Gods about Loras's affairs and says she repents.The HS says the Gods have accepted her repentance and have taken her to be a servent of the Seven.A long speech.Just then the Tyrell army arrives but Margaery commands them to stay put.The king is impressed by the High Sparrow's justice and agrees to use the 7 pointed star as a part of the sigil.Later a furious Cersei along with the Mountain demands a meeting with the HS but a fight breaks out b/w the Mountain and the sparrow guards.Cersei orders the Mountain to go after Septa Unella and he crushes her to death.

A vision about the death of the Mad King just as Jamie described to Brienne.Young Ned is the 1st to arrive after Jamie stabs the mad king and questions his honor.Jamie then sits on the iron throne but says he did it for Robert.

Sam and Gilly arrive at Horn Hill. His sister and mother are good people but his father is furious that he broke the vows of the Nights Watch by fathering a child.He doesnt believe Sam killed a WW and thinks the baby is his.He refuses to let Gilly stay.Sam leaves his home with Gilly and on the carriage tells her he stole his father's Valyrian sword

Walder frey is at the Twins celebrating the wedding of his son.A raven arrives which says he can get Riverrun if he agrees on one condition.No word on whom the letter is from.Possibly LF or Jaime.

Arya arrives at the play and goes backstage.She's serving wine with the poison to the actress.The actress remarks that Arya has the looks of a lady and offers her a position in her cast.She says they'll be going to the Twins for Walder Frey's daughter's wedding.Arya sees the opportunity to get a name off her list and spills the wine

Daenerys and Daario are on the way to Mereen and converse.The khalasar see Drogon above and Dany is relieved that Drogon is coming with them.Varys says Dany is arriving with an army and they need to make provisions.The new priestesses spread the word of Dany returning as the end of Darkness.

[Frontenac]

Again, no. We have every reason to believe he knew what would happen, just not when. Jojen knew before setting off to find Bran and take him to the TER that he would die because he saw it. Either the TER showed him this, or his powers of greensight showed him. Regardless, it implies that the TER is able to see visions of events that have yet to happen.

Also, watch the TER's body language. He's just laying back allowing Bran to get sucked in to this moment until the very second Meera is crying for help. The TER casually and yet pointedly tells Bran to listen to his friends.

Furthermore, I disagree with your opinion on Bran influencing the past. The TER told Bran early on that the past is written because he was not ready to understand the influence that he may have. The TER told Bran as much. "Am I ready?" "No."

Yeah, I forgot about Jojen. I may be wrong, but his visions in the show are not really about the future. And I really don't remember him saying that he knew how he was going to die. He certainly didn't look like he knew it when that wight grabbed his ankle...

As for the Raven's body language in Winterfell, it didn't strike me as different from the one he had in other visions. He always looked aloof and passive, as an observer and that's all.

The Raven said that Bran was not ready to take his place, not that he wasn't ready to influence the past, or to understand what influence he could have. And again, how did Bran influence the past? Hodor was already Hodor. Nothing has changed. The past remained the same, the present too, despite Bran's action. The ink is dry.

We'll have to wait and see who is right. However, it does look like the show (and maybe the book) follows the idea that the Universe is predestined. That kind of temporal loop (Wylis turning to Hodor because of Bran's action in the future) is only possible if there is predestination. As is prophecy. We'll see.

[Deleted]

Episodes 8-9-10 titles, according to /r/freefolk and http://www.spoilertv.com/2016/05/gam...10-titles.html :

6.08 - No One
6.09 - Battle of Bastards
6.10 - The Winds of Winter

[Gallahadd]

That's pretty top their trolling...

Fans: WE WANT WINDS OF WINTER!

GRRM: You've got it! Season 6 episode 10!

Also: episode 8 being called "No one" fills me with hope it'll be that rare creature: an Arya heavy episode!