Do you think nuking Japan was a necessary evil?

[DJ117]

Im saying nuking civilians, maybe wasnt the best, first choice.

Everyone said that at first in the war, well the British, French, Germans and Italians did. Then it gradually disappeared when everyone started realising it was not a two weeks war, but an actual world war requiring all the nations to organise themselves for total war. Civilians are no longer civilians but eventual recruits, factory workers etc.

[Daymanmb]

They were not being invaded at that time

Invading militarily controlled and occupied territory. Youre arguing semantics. We invaded France to defeat the German forces occupying and militarily controlling France but one wouldnt necessarily be wrong when they say we invaded Germany, for had we not, it would have remained German territory.. Just like saying invading the Philippines to defeat the Japanese is pretty much the same as saying invading Japan, for that period of time, it was Japans to keep, if they could have maintained control of it, beyond Ally intervention.

[DJ117]

And the US later agreed to peace with the Japanese demands(which were mostly about avoiding the emperor being tried for war crimes). The bombs were unnecessary.

The Japanese made no demands.

The U.S. realised that they would never be able to subdue the Japanese population without the Emperor. This recognition was championed mainly by General MacArthur.

All the Japanese war criminals agreed to guilty as long as the Emperor would avoid persecution.

[Forogil]

Invading militarily controlled and occupied territory. Youre arguing semantics. We invaded France to defeat the German forces occupying and militarily controlling France but one wouldnt necessarily be wrong when they say we invaded Germany, for had we not, it would have remained German territory.. Just like saying invading the Philippines to defeat the Japanese is pretty much the same as saying invading Japan, for that period of time, it was Japans to keep, if they could have maintained control of it, beyond Ally intervention.

That Japan were even considering keeping their military conquests shows how far they were from unconditional surrender.

[Daymanmb]

That Japan were even considering keeping their military conquests shows how far they were from unconditional surrender.

Who said anything about unconditional surrender? The post you quoted makes no mention of it?
And we're clearly talking of invasion, not proclaiming defeat.. theres a lot of time between the two, you understand that, yeh?
Or are you saying as soon as Allies landed in the Pacific to take on Japan, Japan should have surrendered unconditionally then and because they didnt surrender unconditionally immediately, they never would have without dropping 2 nukes?

[Forogil]

The Japanese made no demands.

The U.S. realised that they would never be able to subdue the Japanese population without the Emperor. This recognition was championed mainly by General MacArthur.

This was the important part - the emperor was willing to stand trial for war crimes after the unconditional surrender, but it was the US that decided and they thought it better to keep the emperor.

[Varteras]

This is about as funny as listening to Texans threaten to secede every year. The outcome will be the same, too. Nothing.

[Forogil]

Who said anything about unconditional surrender? The post you quoted makes no mention of it?

http://www.atomicarchive.com/Docs/Hi.../Potsdam.shtml

We call upon the government of Japan to proclaim now the unconditional surrender of all Japanese armed forces, and to provide proper and adequate assurances of their good faith in such action. The alternative for Japan is prompt and utter destruction.

[Cerus]

Unconditional surrender is unconditional surrender. The Japanese had been signalling for peace but with demands. So what I said is NOT false.

Oh so the 2400+ killed and 1100+ wounded at Pearl Harbor was them signaling peace? They're lucky we didn't nuke their entire country into oblivion.

[Daymanmb]

http://www.atomicarchive.com/Docs/Hi.../Potsdam.shtml

Go back and look at what you quoted and what youre posting now.. I dont see the connection youre making. I wasnt talking about surrender in that post, like at all.

[Hexian]

sometimes you have to further intimidate your subjects to remind them who is in charge...

Good to know that mods....cough cough *Endus* cough... let trollbait nation bashing posts like this go as long as they agree with the OP.

[Independent voter]

Japan got 120 kg of uranium oxide from Germany, this was so that Japan could build an atom bomb.

[Fencers]

Was nuking Japan necessary?

Yes. The potential loss of life and damage of invading Japan was weighted to be greater than dropping atomic bombs. It unilaterally ended Japanese aggression toward the US- their principle enemy in the PTO.

There is no need for a US President to apologize. We won.

[Daymanmb]

Oh so the 2400+ killed and 1100+ wounded at Pearl Harbor was them signaling peace? They're lucky we didn't nuke their entire country into oblivion.

Its amazing how disconnected people can be.

[Forogil]

that's pretty much what an unconditional surrender is "sign or die"

German delegations were barred from the talks. They were just given terms and told to sign.

Armistice was in November 1918; they surrendered - but not unconditionally surrender then, and some minor negotiations were made, but the final peace treaty was in Versailles, June 1919, and the Germans walked away from the agreement and a new delegation was sent. That is not how you make a good peace agreement.

[Flatspriest]

Oh so the 2400+ killed and 1100+ wounded at Pearl Harbor was them signaling peace? They're lucky we didn't nuke their entire country into oblivion.

No. That was Japan attacking the US and bringing us into the war. When the Japanese were supposedly suing for peace, they were still bombing US ships and installations around the Pacific. Sounds like a real peace offering when they were still attacking us.

[Daymanmb]

Armistice was in November 1918; they surrendered - but not unconditionally surrender then, and some minor negotiations were made, but the final peace treaty was in Versailles, June 1919, and the Germans walked away from the agreement and a new delegation was sent. That is not how you make a good peace agreement.

Peace is attained with nukes, thats the only way apparently. Bombing major cities with nuclear weapons is the only way to win a war. Probably why we havent won one since..

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Oh so the 2400+ killed and 1100+ wounded at Pearl Harbor was them signaling peace? They're lucky we didn't nuke their entire country into oblivion.

And lets not forget that Hiroshima was the 7th largest civilian city in Japan. Pearl Harbour was a military base. Theres a significant difference!

[nonameelf]

No. That was Japan attacking the US and bringing us into the war. When the Japanese were supposedly suing for peace, they were still bombing US ships and installations around the Pacific. Sounds like a real peace offering when they were still attacking us.

Um, the war doesn't end until both sides agree to peace. Just because they sued for peace doesn't mean the war is over, the US had to agree to peace.

[Hexian]

Peace is attained with nukes, thats the only way apparently. Bombing major cities with nuclear weapons is the only way to win a war. Probably why we havent won one since..

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And lets not forget that Hiroshima was the 7th largest civilian city in Japan. Pearl Harbour was a military base. Theres a significant difference!

Annndd we are done here...

[Daymanmb]

Annndd we are done here...

/bowout /3more